So what is this world coming to again?...

exile

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I know I didn't want to end up in there after seeing it!

Well, that's the trick. LEOs like Drac and some of our other guys on MT, who see this stuff firsthand know, just by their own reactions, just how much impact the brutal reality of living in a max security facility would have on kids who currently don't have a clue about it... but that kind of exposure is, I would bet, all too rare for kids in toney middle-class communities. It probably takes a certain amount of guts for a school administrator to build something like a visit to the nearest state pen into the schedule of field trips for kids with household incomes in six figures or more.

The importance of reaching these kids is paramount. In Victoria, my home for many years before moving to Ohio, there have been a number of horrible incidents in which groups of kids from well-off, upwardly mobile families participated in the killing or maiming of other children who were regarded as expendable because they were socially marginal---and local law enforcement there has warned increasingly of an alarming increase in incidence of this sort of crime.

This, contrary to some of what certain previous posts have suggested,is a pattern that cannot be plausbily attributed to socioeconomic disparities (if not outright rich, these kids' familier are extremely comfortable), nor can it be associated with war (we're talking about Canada for heaven's sake---we glorify peacekeepers, not warmongers!). What we are seeing, according to Canadian law enforcement agencies, is a frightening increase in what I think of as `reacreational' violence---kind of like the vandalism that bored some kids have always indulged in, only now the thing is to throw the brick not into a storefront window but into some unsuspecting victim's face. Violence in some quarters is considered a kind of diversion---Lisa's story isn't the first I've heard about the increase in this sort of thing in Toronto. There's no apparent motive for it, and the kids who are apprehended for it virtually never express any remorse, or awareness that there are ethical and moral issues involved in their actions.

Doctors I know like to say that, if you don't know just what the matter is, you treat the symptoms and hope you can figure it out down the road. One way of treating the symptoms here is just the kind of `shock' exposure that Drac alluded to in connection with that program for kids, and which Jeff's post indicated had a substantial effect on him and his schoolmates. There are a lot of guys in prison that you're not going to be able to rehabilitate, but their lives can still be put to some good by showing impressionable young minds what it's like to get caught up in the penal system. Ideally we'd like them to do the right thing because it is the right thing, but if they wind up doing the right thing because they know what can happen to them if they do the wrong thing... I'd settle for that.
 

Kacey

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The "Scared Straight" program had great results..Is it still in operation I wonder??? I'd like to see them take it to the next level and actually lock up the little darlings for a weekend..Put them in Protective Custody to insure their physical safety but let them hear and feel where they are headed if they continue on their present course...

Actually, Scared Straight was scrapped because, in many instances, it not only didn't work, but increased the recidivism rate. It worked in the short term, true - but over time, it was, in some cases, worse than no intervention. There is some question about this, because it was generally used with the worst of the worse, who tended to not be concerned; I've not seen any significant results from programs that used it with children earlier on. There are some studies that showed positive results, but they often didn't follow the kids into adulthood.

Shock Programs
One tertiary youth violence prevention intervention meets the scientific criteria established above for Does Not Work: Scared Straight. Scared Straight is an example of a shock probation or parole program in which brief encounters with inmates describing the brutality of prison life or short-term incarceration in prisons or jails is expected to shock, or deter, youths from committing crimes. Numerous studies of Scared Straight have demonstrated that the program does not deter future criminal activities. In some studies, rearrest rates were similar between controls and youths who participated in Scared Straight. In others, youths exposed to Scared Straight actually had higher rates of rearrest than youths not involved in this intervention. Studies of other shock probation programs have shown similar effects. (For more information on Scared Straight and similar shock probation interventions, see Boudouris & Turnbull, 1985; Buckner & Chesney-Lind, 1983; Finckenauer, 1982; Lewis, 1983; Sherman et al., 1997; Vito, 1984; Vito & Allen, 1981.)

Other resources:

Scared Straight and other prison tour programs

"Scared Straight" and other juvenile awareness programs for preventing juvenile delinquency (Cochrane Review)

Scared Straight (Wikipedia)
 

zDom

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Ideally we'd like them to do the right thing because it is the right thing, but if they wind up doing the right thing because they know what can happen to them if they do the wrong thing... I'd settle for that.

Me too.
 

Drac

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Actually, Scared Straight was scrapped because, in many instances, it not only didn't work, but increased the recidivism rate. It worked in the short term, true - but over time, it was, in some cases, worse than no intervention. There is some question about this, because it was generally used with the worst of the worse, who tended to not be concerned; I've not seen any significant results from programs that used it with children earlier on. There are some studies that showed positive results, but they often didn't follow the kids into adulthood

Thanks Kacey I was unaware that it had been scrapped..
 
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Lisa

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Ideally we'd like them to do the right thing because it is the right thing, but if they wind up doing the right thing because they know what can happen to them if they do the wrong thing... I'd settle for that.

Yup, I can live with that too.
 

CoryKS

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Ideally we'd like them to do the right thing because it is the right thing, but if they wind up doing the right thing because they know what can happen to them if they do the wrong thing... I'd settle for that.

Agreed. This is why it's important to have negative incentives in addition to positive incentives. I have no doubt that I meet people daily that would do me harm if they thought they could get away with it. I feel much safer relying on their self-interest (staying out of jail) than their love for their fellow man.
 

Andy Moynihan

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There is no virtue in certain people anymore save that which springs from wholesome fear of the gallows. Take away the gallows and what did you *think* was gonna happen?

You don't "rehabilitate" people capable of doing things like this. You VENTILATE them. But since for the most part that option has been taken away this is the natural consequence of paying the price.

You're thinking that's maybe a little harsh?

No. It's a *lot* harsh.

But there comes a point-and I'm convinced beyond unconvincing that those responsible for the deed which sparked this thread ARE past it-where a person just is not fixable. Only one thing to do with a rabid dog, and if it's not done, who then is to blame when the dog continues to attack people?
 

Drac

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I feel much safer relying on their self-interest (staying out of jail) than their love for their fellow man.

With all due respect...You are deluding yourself...All it will take is the right individual with the I-don't-care-about-jail-attitude who believes you "dissed" him or stared to hard at him and he will attack, although I will pray that you NEVER run into them, and if you do you will use your skills to beat the chicken soup outta him..Make NO mistake, they are out there...If one of these scumbags doesn't think twice about jumping on a cop KNOWING that retribution will be swift and terrible when his backup arrives PLUS facing jailtime for Assault on a Police Officer..Do you think you are any safer??? Sorry ranting again..
 

CoryKS

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With all due respect...You are deluding yourself...All it will take is the right individual with the I-don't-care-about-jail-attitude who believes you "dissed" him or stared to hard at him and he will attack, although I will pray that you NEVER run into them, and if you do you will use your skills to beat the chicken soup outta him..Make NO mistake, they are out there...If one of these scumbags doesn't think twice about jumping on a cop KNOWING that retribution will be swift and terrible when his backup arrives PLUS facing jailtime for Assault on a Police Officer..Do you think you are any safer??? Sorry ranting again..

What I said is that I feel "safer". Not "safe". Big difference. I know there are scumbags out there who don't fear the penalties. But many people do. What I am not doing is deluding myself that these people are leaving me alone out of concern for my well-being.
 

Drac

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What I said is that I feel "safer". Not "safe". Big difference. I know there are scumbags out there who don't fear the penalties. But many people do. What I am not doing is deluding myself that these people are leaving me alone out of concern for my well-being.


Please forgive my ranting.. No disrespect intended..I need to read a little more carefully..Again my apologies...
 

CoryKS

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Please forgive my ranting.. No disrespect intended..I need to read a little more carefully..Again my apologies...

No foul. :ultracool I just wanted to make sure I wasn't projecting a "fiddle-de-dee" attitude with that last post. Sometimes I don't make myself very clear.
 

zDom

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"beat the chicken soup outta him"

Heheheheh :) Nice phrase. ;)
 

Drac

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I heard that somewhere and liked it..
 

Don Roley

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You think that is bad? Try this.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/dvd-mob-like-nazi-camp-guards/2006/10/25/1161699377397.html

The perps may be a bit older, but the way they are being treated sickens me. You may note that a kid caught peddling the DVD was let off with being expelled. He had to know what went on, said nothing and that is all they are doing to him.

I think that a lot of the problem may be that kids really are not educated in things about morals as they are conditioned. I think we have to look at Pavlov more than Freud. I think that later kids build up their moral outlook on life based on how they have been conditioned by their family and society. There are women in Ethiopia who have had female circumscision done on them and yet they are the ones to force it on their daughters. Their conditioning is what drives them, not a process of thought and reflection.

Now we seem to expect kids to understand the evil that they do and correct themselves. That presupposes that they have the ability to tell right from wrong and have empathy towards others. Anyone who has watched kids fry ants knows that there is little empathy at an early age. And kids are not too clear on the differences between a slug that they shrivel up with salt and a kid that they set afire it seems.

I think we need to tell kids that certain things are wrong, punish them for stepping over the line and tell them to shut up when they ask why it is wrong. They will figure out why it is wrong if they are conditioned to act a certain way. But too many kids are great part time lawyers and see loopholes in logic that really don't make sense to anyone else.
 
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Lisa

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That is really sick, Don. Really, really sick. I have some ideas as to what to do to those kids...they aren't very nice and it angers me that they get away with that without any reprecussions.

I wonder what would happen to those children if someone dies in one of the fires they start?
 

exile

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I think that later kids build up their moral outlook on life based on how they have been conditioned by their family and society.

There's a lot of truth to that. Treat the symptoms if you can't do anything else, as the doctors say.

I remember during the early days of the civil rights movement, people who were defending the `right' of certain parts of the country to maintain a segregated society used to use the argument that `You can't legislate morality.' And I remember a professor of mine at university who quoted that and then snorted, `The hell you can't!'. His point was that you can't wait till people decide `in their hearts' to stop beating up on a minority---if you make and enforce laws that protect that minority from the violence and systematic oppression of the majority, then after a while, that change in practice will lead to the change in perception that you want. But you have to start with the change in behavior.

This is the same kind of thing, exactly. If you can't do anything better, at least you have to get people to behave decently, by whatever means. I wouldn't say it's Pavlov vs. Freud, because my impression is that Freud really didn't have much to say about violent sociopathy---his domain was really just neurosis; violence of this sort he never, as far as I know, had anything to say about. He did say, repeatedly, that psychoanalysis could do nothing for genuine psychosis. But the Pavlovian part---yes, if the best you can do is condition decent behavior, then that's what you have to do.
 

Kacey

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As far as the child Lisa posted about - gee, a warning... how horrible (heavy sarcasm here). This child especially, but also the others involved, need intensive counseling, beginning about a year ago; that being impossible, it needs to start ASAP, and parental refusal shouldn't be an option - in fact, I would suggest that family therapy would be appropriate.

For the teens Don mentions, extremely intensive therapy (as, I suspect, incarceration would simply inure them to their current ways), along with a truly significant amount of community service - say, around 1000 hours - closely supervised, doing something really fun, like picking up trash on the freeway, digging ditches, cleaning septic tanks... perhaps going to a 3rd World country and working among people who consider a bowl of rice a full meal, and a monthly bath to be a luxury.

Given past mores, I can't say if such despicable acts are more common today, or if they are just better reported - either way, we, as a society, need to do a better job of educating our youth about morality and ethics, a better job of supervising them, and a better (and much faster) response system for those who commit such acts.
 

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