The Cultural Emsculation of the American Male

[Bigshadow]

Warren Farrell, in his "The Myth of Male Power," points out that American men don't quite have it as easy as its cracked up to be.

Very good book. I have read it.

At the time he wrote it, about fifteen years ago, men were the prime victims... They die on the job in high risk occupations. They commit suicide in far greater rates than women.

I think the statistics have slightly improved since his writings. There are more women now working. I think this also reflects the rise in deaths of women from stress, approaching that of men.

But emasculization? I agree with Robert. I'm not feeling too neutered...

I don't feel emasculization either. The fellow who started the thread may have chosen the wrong word. I would have called the feminization of America.

As for men in commercials appearing boorish, comical dunces...well...maybe we are. But we're also portrayed as the heroes in most movies...and while Sigourney Weaver and Leslie Hamilton have redefined women's roles somewhat in action flicks, we still control the field.

Yes the image of dumb and strong. Another words a big oaf. I disagree.

 

[ginshun]

Pssst--the real issue here is: a) working class people getting screwed by capitalism;

Every subjest eventually comes back to that, doesn't it.

 

[Bigshadow]

Still waiting for equal pay for equal work, but that gives us all something to work for, right?

I think women SHOULD GET equal pay for equal work! That is the right thing to do. I never understood why some companies don't do this. hmmm... go figure....

 

[Bigshadow]

Yeah, if being pro-choice, believing that society (not necessarily "the government") has an obligation to help those in need, and that all people are entitled to equal recognition under the law, then yes, in the tradition of my parents, who marched on Selma and Washington before "liberal" became a bad word, then yes-I'm a liberal.

Cool! That is good. I wasn't trying to be offensive, I was only curious...

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I've read a lot here about men vs. women, and the expectations of men/boys, and even : shakes head in disgust :: ) silly left vs. right, liberal vs. . . . damn, who gives a crap.

Is it that easy to be distracted by synthetic labels, and "us vs them" mentality?


rmcrobertson: "Especially when, it looks to me, like the real issue is that men are starting to be expected to grow up and act like adults, and many don't want to."

That is not the issue, but it is part of the problem. Men are not "starting to be expected" to mature - actually, it is the expectation that is the problem. I could expect all sorts of things, but if I don't do anything about it . . .

See where I'm going?

There's so much finger-pointing to potential problems and causes. Instead of just looking backward and just having expectations, and just finding things to argue about, how about actually doing something to help young men grow and mature, and learn to access their maleness in a productive way?

elder999: "I just think that there's something more insidious in the way that men are being portrayed, and sometimes in the way that we are expected to behave.

That's why I say ignore the portrayals and expectations; keep a sensitivity to the insidiousness - which I'm just paranoid enough to believe exists - but focus more on creating the outcome you want instead of complaining about the ones you don't.


I'm barely even a mature adult myself (I'm putting it off as long as possible!) but when I'm with my nephews, little cousins, and younger MA-training partners, I try my best to instill mature male values, and to help focus their natural traits in positive ways.


If there is an insidious shadow-conspiracy plot to turn all men into little girls, then I'm just going to do some insidious turning myself - in the other direction.

Who's with me?

 

[TonyM.]

Count me in.

 

[Bigshadow]

That's why I say ignore the portrayals and expectations; keep a sensitivity to the insidiousness - which I'm just paranoid enough to believe exists - but focus more on creating the outcome you want instead of complaining about the ones you don't.

Who's with me?

I am with you. I do the same the same. Every little bit helps.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I have been doing minor things like teaching for the last twenty-five years--but then, I thought the point was to help students to realize their humanity, not some, "maleness."

 

[Bigshadow]

Well, I have been doing minor things like teaching for the last twenty-five years--but then, I thought the point was to help students to realize their humanity, not some, "maleness."

Humanity... How about human nature.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Since Sam Keen was several times mentioned as straightforawrd and unequivocal support for this, "men's movement," jazz, I thought y'all might want to read what he actually says, from, "Enlightenment," magazine:...


...Not exactly great support for the whole, "men are oppressed by the women's movement," line of argument...

Robert:

I'm hoping this was not directed towards me. If my earlier statements have been misconstrued that I believe the latter part of your post, please allow me to clarify.

As a speaker in the mens' movement, I have had ample opportunity to "break bread" with Mr. Keen, and others (some more controversial, some less). I had an opportunity to assist a friend of mine with her doctoral thesis, reviewing the available literature and research on hegemony (male) and culturally reinforced cycles of abuse of women, by men. Men are not oppressed by the womens movement. Hell, if you hear a "feminazi" saying something that's rubbing you the wrong way, it's time to do some self-reflection on WHY what she's saying irks you.

"Responsible masculinity" does not entail embracing bent values regarding gender roles, the places of men or women in society, or any of that. Characterizing it as an "us/them" thing for verbal economy, if the "side A" makes a good point, it behooves "side B" to evaluate the foundations of that point, and make the requisite adaptations in perspective and behavior. I use the phrase "being a man women can trust" by design. And I have seen nothing in Keen's quote that contradicts where I thought I was going with this. I have seen factions of the men's movement at it's silliest, and it's best; from half-naked men running around slapping finger paint on each other while congratulating themselves on their new-found maleness, to honorable "men of mention" wrestling with some hefty ideas about what it means to actually LIVE responsible masculinity from an authentic self position, and not from a forced behavioral redefinition provided by a singular or collective external source.

My point remains: beyond the spiritual path, from which we would all ideally be blind to gender roles and expectations, we still live in a world where we are seen as the genitalia between our thighs; the color of our skin; the buying power of our dollar as evidenced by the clothes we wear. We are treated differently; enculturated differently; and provided vastly different opportunities. Hence, while in this aquarium, it is the responsibility of all good men to identify what it means to live well. By that I mean to live in a way that honors the similarities and differences between men and women; and to comport themselves in a way that, genuinely, holds women in positive regard not just as women, but as people (a subtle virus of perception can be seen in the literature, where even the most "liberated" of minds continue to regard women and their challenges as somehow seperate from the rest of the human experience...a distant deformed relative of the true human race, Men). 2nd class citizenry will likely always be a curse on this globes face. But that doesn't mean that we, as individuals, can't take lifestyle stances that refuse to participate in the collective sickness.

Regards,

Dave

 

[rmcrobertson]

Pretty much my point; thanks.

 

[Bigshadow]

Robert:

true human race, Men

hmmm.... I think that is human species.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I sit corrected.

D.

 

[moonsquid]

I to have noticed how un-p.c. it is to be, dare I say it...A MAN. And believe me, if some dumb offey twenty something male can notice it than there is a good chance that it exists. I try not to take shows like "Everyone likes Raymond" to seriously, but geeze after a while the trend starts to reveal itself. Then you start to notice it more and more...especially if you are looking. Being a boy, and doing "boy" things will surely get you on a med. of some sort. I often call it the wussification of America (you can exchange the w for a p if you wish). Though it might be starting to lose breath though. Finally there may be some backlash as more and more males are starting to take notice. So keep fighting the good fight gentlemen! Remember that we arent trying to keep women down, they deserve everybit of respect that we can muster. All i'm looking for is the same respect that I give to women. Women and men are different! Do not try to mesh the two together. Embrace a women for just that, being a women. Embrace the male for being a man.

 

[elder999]

I should have mentioned the book The War Against Boys, by the feminist scholar, Christina Hoff Sommers. She has documented her work impeccably. If you’re interested in learning more, get her book.

I should also mention how gratifying it is to see that so many of you appreciate my posts, but I also hear from people who try to silence me through calling me a racist (of all things!) or sexist, or the vilest accusation they can think of, “You’re just a man”. Their standard operating procedure is character assassination. By the time you read this, tI’ll have gotten a dozen e-mails and pm’s from shrill harridans protesting my use of the term “shrill harridan”. So be it. I’m not afraid of them, for they simply spit and sputter the same tired, predictable old rhetoric. Ironically, the week I posted this thread, a local (Santa Fe, NM.)domestic abuse prevention advocate was arrested for punching her husband in the face. When do you think they’ll start a “Stop Violence Against Men” campaign? I rest my case.

One email mentioned that I’ve got a way with writing about some of these controversial topics. I just like to say that I’ve gotten away with it, which in itself, is truly a miracle.

As the father of two children, a boy and a girl, and having raised them alone since 1993, it has been one of my my greatest joys raising them to become adults: a good man and a good woman…I consider it an honor to see my children to grow up to be strong and confident people who understand the role they play in a society that degrades people in general...they are respectful of elders, display gracious manners, and my son actually knows how to shake hands like a man should—strong and firm…I advise my son that a man sometimes bears more injustice and responsibility for other’s actions than what is truly fair…but, as most real men realize, it’s not how you are treated in life that makes you what you are—it’s how you choose to live your life that determines who you are… My parents were especially warm and wise people, and they taught me how to be a man, and how to conduct myself as a gentleman. I thank them for that gift. They also taught me how to sit at a table and eat like a civilized person. I was taught the proper use of a knife and fork. We didn’t live a pretentious lifestyle, but we lived a gracious life .At the time, I probably didn’t appreciate it. Today, I do more and more. When I see people bent over the table, using forks like shovels, eating like hogs at the feed trough, I’m grateful that I was taught a different way, just as I am grateful for having been raised to not let what a society decline expects from me limit me, and for thus ensuring that I’d raise my own children that way as well.

People have various ideas of what peace is and what peace looks like. These ideas are usually thought forms which may, or may not bear any resemblance to actual peace. One of the most important knowings to come to me is that in order to be centered and at peace, I must embrace my humanity. In order to project peace outwardly, I must have inner peace. Peace doesn’t imply passivity. Through embracing my humanity, I’ve come to see that feeling anger can be a constructive, as well as instructive part of being human. There are certain issues about which it is appropriate for us to feel anger. The various actions of our administration in the U.S. are some of those things. Sending young men to their deaths, or poisoning the planet with depleted uranium in invasions of foreign countries, causing the deaths of innocent foreigners, easing environmental restirctions…these are things about which it is appropriate to feel anger. The degradation of our society is another. I have embraced my anger, and I’ve made it my friend. I’m at peace with my anger, for it is part of my humanness. We cannot embrace our divinity until we’ve embraced our humanity. Don’t be afraid of anger. Learn to wield your anger with vision, and you enter more profoundly into your humanity. It need not shake you from your spiritual center. The challenge is to express our anger as beings of power, in ways which are open ended, allowing for spiritual growth and change. We then move through the experience.

 

[kroh]

Wow...

Great topic and some good arguments...

Being a boy, and doing "boy" things will surely get you on a med. of some sort.

Nice...all too often do we see this happen...People overmedicated due to some PHDork wanting his name on a cover jacket... There are some cases where the meds are justified but man!...Get over it Doc...

Remember that we arent trying to keep women down, they deserve everybit of respect that we can muster. All i'm looking for is the same respect that I give to women. Women and men are different! Do not try to mesh the two together. Embrace a women for just that, being a women. Embrace the male for being a man.

I make sure that when I see kids comming into the martial arts school where I train I tell them to hold the door for mom or make sure they allow some courtesy toward the "ladies." Not because they are week or in some way not able to hold the stupid door... Not because the tradition of Ladies first was so the Knight going through the door wouldn't get shot by an arrow...But to hold the door to teach the child men and woman ARE different and those differences should be acknowledged and celebrated. BUT, boys should be allowed to explore what it means to be male. Just like women should be allowed to do the same for their side. Equality shouldn't have to mean non-diversity.

All the media are de-male-izing America?...Turn it off. Read a book. Tell your kids to read a book. Or play Chess. How about taking them out for something other than a movie and a happy meal. Take them out for some adventure and get them (and yourself) out of the house. Too Tired from work... not too tired to go to martial arts classes ( since this is that kind of site ). If you are raising or are a role model for boys... Teach them manners, respect for their fellow citizen, love of country, and encourage a HIGH predatory drive. Throw the meds away and let them rattle the cage to find out who they are ( and so you can show them their limits). Might take a bit of work on our parts but it is better to raise a MAN than just a male.

This entire thread I read in one sitting (great thread Elder). I thought there were valid views on both sides. I for one will continue to conduct myself in a MAN-ly fashion (holding the door for a lady, tipping my hat when one walks by, standing up when they come or go from the table, a high predatory drive, love of country and family, and above all else...NO WHINING!) so that if a boy asks me what it means to be a man...i'll just tell him...

"Always show and demand respect."

Thanks all...
Regards,
Walt

 

[German Coach]

Proof Nightclub ladies nights drew rights complaint

By Katie Kerwin McCrimmon, Rocky Mountain News
January 6, 2007

A self-proclaimed "agitator" against feminism declared ladies nights at Colorado nightspots dead Friday after prevailing in the first stage of a civil rights complaint against the Proof Nightclub in southeast Denver.

Steve Horner learned Thursday that Colorado's Division of Civil Rights for the Department of Regulatory Agencies sided with him in his complaint that men were unfairly having to pay cover charges and higher drink prices than women at the Proof's ladies nights.

Read more here.