So Long, And thanks for all the fish

CanuckMA

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
1,726
Reaction score
57
Location
Toronto
The Study used to be a lively place with good debates.

Lately there is entirely too much demented, twisted crap, mostly from the same 2 posters.

It's not fun anymore, there are not enough good threads left. I may come back eventually, I'll haver a look once in a while to see if the tone changes and look at PMs, but overall I'm done here.


Yet another good place ruined by the toxic climate that is American politics.
 

billc

Grandmaster
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
9,183
Reaction score
85
Location
somewhere near Lake Michigan
Well, it was nice knowing you, come back anytime. Maybe you could start your own threads on topics you like. What is that saying about lighting a candle rather than curse the darkness.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,386
Reaction score
4,702
Location
England
Well, it was nice knowing you, come back anytime. Maybe you could start your own threads on topics you like. What is that saying about lighting a candle rather than curse the darkness.

You keep blowing the bloody candle out.
 

billc

Grandmaster
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
9,183
Reaction score
85
Location
somewhere near Lake Michigan
I have to say, there are some here on the study who are regularly attacked as to the nature of their posts, their character and various other aspects of their activitiy here on the study. And yet they keep engaging in the debate and argument here on the study. There are over 90 different threads on the main page. You must actively seek out the study to get to it. you have to actively click on a thread to see what is posted there. I have to say that if politics isn't your thing, well, that's one thing. But to leave in a huff, over stuff that you don't have to engage in is...not very impressive. I again wish you good luck, I hope you eventually come back, and when you do, please do those things that you think would make the study a better place, rather than complain about other people. Of course, you can do that to. The study is a big place for being just one thread in over 90. It can accomodate all kinds of thoughts and opinions.
 

Ken Morgan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
2,985
Reaction score
130
Location
Guelph
Dude, the ignore feature works very well.....

What's the old saying? For evil to prosper, good men must do nothing. You don't have to argue with them, but mock them and move on.
 

hongkongfooey

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
625
Reaction score
20
So start a thread on any topic that interests you. Most people skip over the threads that do not hold an interest for them. You clicked on the threads that you are complaining about, so there must have been some interest in what was being posted.
 

Jenna

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,470
Reaction score
713
Location
Cluj
The Study used to be a lively place with good debates.

Lately there is entirely too much demented, twisted crap, mostly from the same 2 posters.

It's not fun anymore, there are not enough good threads left. I may come back eventually, I'll haver a look once in a while to see if the tone changes and look at PMs, but overall I'm done here.


Yet another good place ruined by the toxic climate that is American politics.
While I can possibly understand your frustration, I do not think you need fret and fuss and but rather ignore what does not interest you and concentrate on what does interest you. Not all battles need be fought. Even very important internet ones.
 

Twin Fist

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
7,185
Reaction score
210
Location
Nacogdoches, Tx
if you REALLY cant handle reading things you disagree with, there is an easy solution, its called the ignore feature. Or you could always get used to the idea that not everyone will agree with you.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
22,746
Reaction score
2,992
Location
Northern VA
Several good points have been made. You aren't required to visit The Study or any other part of Martial Talk. There are plenty of threads -- especially in The Study -- that I don't read until there's a RTM ticket on them. The Ignore feature is available for anyone, and will greatly reduce what you see from posters you don't like.

But there's also a valid point. The level of vitriol and animosity in The Study is climbing. I'm not looking forward to what's going to happen over the next year -- and I'll warn you that the Mod Team is pretty close to setting a zero tolerance policy in place for the upcoming US elections. Personally, I think it's a reflection of the general stress in US society as much as anything else. But I'd also like to suggest that EVERYBODY, on both sides of the figurative aisle here, take a moment, and review what they post here in The Study. Make sure you're saying what you want to -- in the way you want to. Is your message going to get lost in the manner of the transmission?

And let's all try to commit to discussing the ISSUES, without the rancor, cheap shots, and general rudeness and nastiness that has become all too common of late.
 
Last edited:

Bob Hubbard

Retired
MT Mentor
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
47,245
Reaction score
769
Location
Land of the Free
Also on the table:
- Eliminating the Study entirely.
- Making it SM only.

Members have the ability to use the ignore feature. Staff don't.
I'm also not happy with the current state of the section, and am taking some time to clear my head and make a carefully considered decision on it's future.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,386
Reaction score
4,702
Location
England
It is stupid of some to imagine that because the more intelligent and freedom loving people on here don't like the way the Study is going that it is because they can't stand others disgreeing with them. It's a smokescreen, nothing more. The people who throw out this 'oh you don't like being disgreed with' are the self same people who actually really don't like being disagreed with. It reminds me of the callow youth who when turned down for a date by a girl, hurls the insult at her 'oh you must be a lesbian'.
It is extremely funny that Billcihak who hasn't been here as long as most should say to Canuck that he should come back anytime, as if he owned the site and as always he has that handy media link for our delectation and amusement. You really can't get much patronising.

I said a while back that the persistant right wing takeover of the Study would drive people off the Study, a place that before had been a place of some heated arguments but also a lot of informative exchanges of lifestyles, information and educaton. I was 'shouted down', told to put people on ignore, to leave etc but why should I? To leave it as it stands, as Stevebjj says is to imply that we agrees with what is being said. Ken Morgan is correct, if we do nothing then evil indeed will happen. So no I won't leave, I won't be driven off, and I won't ignore, the posts don't upset me, they invoke no emotions whatsoever other than a desire to have all sides represented. Have your say by all means but don't start howling because we challenge them, and you do, we've had this 'leave if you don't like it' a few times now, it's getting repetitive. We've also had the 'you don't like people disagreeing with you' schtick too, I suppose it saves answering our points, especially when you don't have an answer.

What I don't think people realise is that as Canuck says, the tone of the Study is what is disturbing on many levels, it's as if some people are venting the frustrations of their lives on posters here. Political discussions can be great fun but recently the feeling that only some people are right and the rest of us are not is seeping all through the study. We don't get opinions we get links to media outlets, parrotting the same twisted rhetoric. Now I enjoy a good speech or article even if I don't agreed with the premise but twisting the truth to fit in with certain beliefs is a dangerous game to play. Saying that right wing people are all sweetness and light and all left wingers are murderers is ridiculous, no one can take that seriously. Saying that criminals and murderers are left wing because the right wing don't do things like that is silliness beyond belief. How can we have proper, informative discussion when one side believes that Botha and his Apartheid thugs were left wing and Nelson Mandela is right wing? How can we believe what some one who thought Maggie Thatcher was a socialist says? All rational thought and facts fly out the window when you get twisted logic like that.

The tone has also turned belligerant, growling at someone that they are on illegal drugs or drunk doesn't enhance the experience of having a discussion on here. Give and take with a modicum of sarcasm and a leavening of humour used to be the way here now it's growling, snarling and insults. Why would any sane person want to spend time here if they could be doing something better, interacting with people from different cultures and countries used to be a pleasure, now its a chore if we are to stop the constant flow of misinformation. And there is misinformation, one reason I do respond is to contradict the often wrong view taken of events here. The union debate for example, I don't know how unions work in the States but I do know how they work here, my father was a big union man, I also know how much good they do in many countries with education, welfare and workers rights and I know too that many union officials get persecuted for belonging to a union. To sinply say all unions are bad is to miss the point totally. this isn't the only subject to be treated like this. The point of the Study is surely so we can have a full frank exchange of ideas and experiences.

The other problem with the Study at the moment is that many are simplyfying things, dumbing it down. Hugely complicated issues like the Middle East are reduced to one liners, sweeping generalisations as I've mentioned already kill discussons stone dead. We have so many one line posts now you can't have a conversation, the one line being a link to a political pundit.

Do battles have to be fought? Of course they do, what you get if you don't fight back at grassroots level (that's the Study) as well as higher is a Nazi Germany, people know now in hindsight that if more had fought it then, the insidious propaganda and lies, the small beginnings of censorships ( telling us to leave or ignore) leading to worse, we wouldn't have had the rise of the abominable.
 

Jenna

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,470
Reaction score
713
Location
Cluj
That is an eye opening post for me Tez. I appreciate how you feel about this.

My issue is not with disavowing the Study as generally I do this anyway and believe the world will hardly change by my absence from it. My issue is not with that. My issue is rather that this forum as I perceive it, is OVERRUN by the Study area now.

I miss when MT was mostly about "the friendly discussion of Martial Arts" or whatever it used to say.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,386
Reaction score
4,702
Location
England
That is an eye opening post for me Tez. I appreciate how you feel about this.

My issue is not with disavowing the Study as generally I do this anyway and believe the world will hardly change by my absence from it. My issue is not with that. My issue is rather that this forum as I perceive it, is OVERRUN by the Study area now.

I miss when MT was mostly about "the friendly discussion of Martial Arts" or whatever it used to say.

I know what you mean but I think you may be wrong about the world not changing with your absence. Every day we say things and interact with people in a way that may change the course of anothers life. Sound overdramatic but you don't know that the kind word you gave a stranger doesn't change their mind about somethng. You don't know that one post you make on here could give hope to someone, help them make a difficult decision or help them feel they aren't alone.


I feel along with a few of others that we can't allow some things said here to go without being challenged, we don't want first timers here or random 'caller's to feel we tacitly approve of many of the political views here such as those on Muslims. It reflects on us as martial artists even though it's not a martial arts related part of MT.

Perhaps those of us who feel the Study is taking over could all post one (or more lol) martial arts threads to counter-act this 'takeover'.
 

Sukerkin

Have the courage to speak softly
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
15,318
Reaction score
481
Location
Staffordshire, England
The state of the Study and it's, gradual at first, decline into what we have now, is something that has been discussed a few times 'behind the curtain'.

I've raised it myself more than once and the conclusion has always been the one that Tez describes, primarily, it has to be said because there is an underlying premise of freedom of speech on the site. The problem has ever been, in my eyes, that there has been too much preoccupation with the concept of freedom to say what you think and not enough on the responsibilities of posters not to make their fellow members feel like not coming back here ever again.

A number of very fine people have done just that over the past few years i.e. not come back. Try and recall when the last time you saw contributions from excellent posters like Exile or Kidswarrior was. I've stuck it out because I am naturally stubborn and because, as I've posted before, there is nearly always common ground you can find with someone and, as you exchange posts, you get to see a bit more of the person behind whatever the polemic it is that first dismayed you in the first place.

Sadly, the willingness of the even "bad boys" to eventually meet the rest of us half way has dissipated.

Most of the stuff that gets people angry is political in nature and the easiest solution of all is for those posters who just want to post political stuff to keep it in the designated forum and out of the Study. As the name implies, the Study is actually for discourse on topics of interest that aren't martial arts but are of interest to people - the emphasis is on discourse. That means finding out what each other thinks and exploring the topic, not banging out the same tune without regard for what anyone else is saying.

As even the Cap'n has had enough of it, perhaps it is well past time for people to slow down and open their sense a bit to what a nasty place they are turning our site into.
 

Bob Hubbard

Retired
MT Mentor
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
47,245
Reaction score
769
Location
Land of the Free
June Stats. Last time we ran them as the old report generator isn't vB4 compatible.
Top 9 by Threads

The Study (106)
Tae-Kwon-Do (69)
US Political Discussion and Debate (46)
The Locker Room Bar & Grill (45)
General Martial Arts Talk (33)
Wing Chun (17)
The Rec Room (Sports and Entertainment) (15)
MMA (15)
Photography (14)
Top 9 by Posts

The Study (2884)
Tae-Kwon-Do (1861)
US Political Discussion and Debate (1188)
General Martial Arts Talk (704)
Wing Chun (445)
The Locker Room Bar & Grill (335)
The Rec Room (Sports and Entertainment) (222)
General Self Defense (206)
Ninjutsu (183)
Top 10 Users by Threads

MA-Caver (69)
billcihak (54)
Bob Hubbard (41)
Big Don (27)
MJS (15)
Xue Sheng (14)
jks9199 (13)
Sensei Payne (12)
granfire (12)
Clark Kent (12)

Top 10 Users by Posts
granfire (444)
Bob Hubbard (355)
billcihak (339)
puunui (318)
Sensei Payne (316)
Twin Fist (291)
Sukerkin (248)
Tez3 (248)
Big Don (247)
MA-Caver (241)

I'm sorry I can't fix this.
I'm sorry that a number of people are moving on, minimizing their participation, or flat out attacking my staff forcing us to ban them.
I'm sorry for my own contributions to the problem.
I'm sorry that I can't ban everyone that everyone has problems with outright.
I'm sorry I can't personally stop in and make things right for everyone who has a complaint.
I haven't figured out how to force people to be rational, follow some basic rules of behavior, or move past the 'anonymous internet *******' field that seems to decend too often.
In short, I'm sorry.

People bring up 'freedom of speech', '1st amendment' stuff like that.
Doesn't apply here, sorry. You have what we allow, and we allow a lot, but it's not a USC issue.

People bring up being told to put others on ignore.
Yeah. What do you do in the real world when someone annoys you? Always get into screaming matches, or tune them out?
No one forces anyone to come here and be a jerk. That's a free will thing. You have that choice.
We'd prefer it if you leave the jerk character elsewhere.

People bring up the various directional political leanings. Too right too left, to whatever.
People get tired of seeing certain posts, views, etc.
So they leave. They do a cyber "Im leaving" and wait to see who notices.
Cut it out already. You have tools here to customize your view, to balance things. Use them.
Stay. Continue to contribute to the discussions -you- enjoy.
Resist the temptation to 'peek'.

Folks, at the end of the day, this site is you. Not me. I can't make a hundred posts a day, research things, try and constantly play 'moderating presence' or 'counter point'. Sorry, I don't make enough to justify the hours needed. Get me 200 SM's and maybe 50 GK members, and double our ad revenue and I can. Until then, part of the burden of making this place enjoyable is on our members. When it all goes to crap, when the last SM resigns, when the last paid sponsor leaves, when the ad revenue dries up, the site will close as I'm not going to shell out $6k a year to watch tumbleweeds roll.

Until then, I'll keep the lights on best as I can, and my staff will keep trying to keep the peace.

Even if some days I feel like we're less on a forum, and more in the closing minutes of Thermopylae.
Though I wish I had Leonidas's abs.
 

Bob Hubbard

Retired
MT Mentor
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
47,245
Reaction score
769
Location
Land of the Free
I appreciate ever opinion expressed.
Even the ones that disagree with mine.
Even the ones that piss me the hell off.
If everyone here agreed, it would be boring.
We need contradictory debate.
Debate. Not full tilt personal attacks.
Disagreement is good. Hate is not.
There's too much hate in here as of late.

I'd love to see more in the art areas. Looking at most other sites though, we're par for the course. Few are 'focused' on arts.
I can't contribute much to the arts though. Haven't trained in 6 years. Anything I drop in ends up being a rehash of old newb stuff, and usually withers.
I drop videos in as I can to generate discussion. Works well on KT, not so much here, not at all on FMAT. Weird.

Now, excuse me. I have to go see if any of the 4,000+ fargin error messages that just dumped into my inbox are important. (server load issue)
Also have to figure out what to do about a printer that's giving me grief, and the 1.5TB hard drive that just died that held most of my photo and video archives.
Today, is not my day.
 
Top