Slightly concerned about my school.

[Marginal]

How bad would you have to be to fail a white -> yellow belt test? Short of falling down every time you do a move, and catching the testing board with a farmer's blow...

 

[d1jinx]

How bad would you have to be to fail a white -> yellow belt test? Short of falling down every time you do a move, and catching the testing board with a farmer's blow...

yeah... that would fail ya. but a true master would have not let you test in the first place!

 

[Galens]

I am so fortunate for all the replies that have been given to me. Thank you very much everyone. Reading everyone's replies has helped me clearly evaluate my situation. Thank you sooo much :asian:

 

[Gordon Nore]

The part about instructors appearing to not know certain items resonated for me but in a different way.

The school I trained at for many years had a long time in grade, as I've mentioned in the past, minimum ten years to black belt. It took me eleven, because I took a year off to go back to school when I was a blue belt. I spent another two years there after I graded. In that time, including my own, I participated in or observed only five black belt tests.

A number of people would go from white to yellow, yellow to orange, orange to green, but as you got higher up there were fewer students of the same rank. With all of the instructors, including the head instructors, teaching white belts all the time, it was very easy to forget a technique or even a kata at the senior level. It was common for a higher belt to have to stop and think about this or that because there are not many people at that rank. With the hundreds of techniques we worked with, that was to be expected, especially if you're constantly teaching beginners.

 

[dbell]

The part about instructors appearing to not know certain items resonated for me but in a different way.

The school I trained at for many years had a long time in grade, as I've mentioned in the past, minimum ten years to black belt. It took me eleven, because I took a year off to go back to school when I was a blue belt. I spent another two years there after I graded. In that time, including my own, I participated in or observed only five black belt tests.

A number of people would go from white to yellow, yellow to orange, orange to green, but as you got higher up there were fewer students of the same rank. With all of the instructors, including the head instructors, teaching white belts all the time, it was very easy to forget a technique or even a kata at the senior level. It was common for a higher belt to have to stop and think about this or that because there are not many people at that rank. With the hundreds of techniques we worked with, that was to be expected, especially if you're constantly teaching beginners.

These black belts SHOULD have been doing all of the katas/etc. in cross training with each other every week so that they did not loose track of them, and so that they stayed current with their ranking. For groups like this there should be a "black belt" class where they get to keep on top of what they know...

 

[granfire]

These black belts SHOULD have been doing all of the katas/etc. in cross training with each other every week so that they did not loose track of them, and so that they stayed current with their ranking. For groups like this there should be a "black belt" class where they get to keep on top of what they know...

There should, and still you get those brain farts.
We have 6 color belt forms an equal amount of BB forms and all changed a coupe of years ago.

A lot of cramming and working to overcome muscle memory...teaching is different than doing.

 

[Steve]

My opinion is that you should move on to another school at your first opportunity. Not because the school is bad or good... that's hard to say. Could be a great school. But you should move on because you've already got misgivings about the school after 2 months. These misgivings are not likely to disappear over time.

 

[myusername]

Leave!

Not because I think it is a "mcdojo" but more because I get the sense you have doubts. Some people on here are saying 2 months isn't enough time to make this decision. I would have to respectfully disagree, 2 months is long enough to know wether you feel confident in what you are being taught as you would of experienced the good lessons and the not so good ones.

Depending on if you are contracted or not I say get out there straight away and shop around to find a school you feel confident in.


In regards to your comments on feeling ready for testing or belt colour remember that at colour rankings you are not expected to be perfect all of the time because you are a novice.

I think identifying a "mcdojo" isn't an easy deinition to come to as the term means different things to different people but what is more important is whether the school fits you, meets your needs and you have belief in what you are being taught.

There is so much choice within martial arts now so why not have a look at a few other schools and see how they do things before you commit any further money or time in your current school.

So my advice is leave!

 

[ACJ]

I have to disagree with both stevebjj and myusername. I think you are being a little too eager with the "if there's any doubts don't do it" mantra. I think if the OP stuck with that idea, then they would probably have to go through a lot of good schools before they stuck with one, and for all the wrong reasons. They ware worried about grading too fast from white belt. So it's really just their perception of martial arts agreeing with the reality of martial arts.

Would you deliver similar advice to someone who had misgivings about their school because they weren't learning how to break ten guys' necks at the same time 'cos that's what they expected martial arts to be? Sure this head instructor does seem a bit fishy, but without knowing all the details we can't make too many judgement calls on it yet.

 

[jks9199]

Like I said; I see some red flags. But that doesn't automatically mean there's a problem or it's a bad school.

In the more traditional Japanese schools, you often need a referral in the first place to get in the door -- and then spend several weeks watching and being watched before they offer you the chance to join the dojo. Unfortunately, in our more mercantile martial arts environment, people walk in the door, and are signed up. I sometimes think a trial period of a few months -- not a free class or two -- might be a good thing.

My advice to the OP right now is to wait, train, and be open to re-evaluate. In a few more weeks or months, he'll have a better idea about it, and be able to make a better decision. (Of course, if he's bound by a contract, he's got other problems...)

 

[Steve]

I have to disagree with both stevebjj and myusername. I think you are being a little too eager with the "if there's any doubts don't do it" mantra. I think if the OP stuck with that idea, then they would probably have to go through a lot of good schools before they stuck with one, and for all the wrong reasons. They ware worried about grading too fast from white belt. So it's really just their perception of martial arts agreeing with the reality of martial arts.

Would you deliver similar advice to someone who had misgivings about their school because they weren't learning how to break ten guys' necks at the same time 'cos that's what they expected martial arts to be? Sure this head instructor does seem a bit fishy, but without knowing all the details we can't make too many judgement calls on it yet.

I can see where you're coming from. The thing is, I believe in intuition. I think that the misgivings will persist. I think that, often, initial impression are lasting impressions. If the OP has doubts about the school, he should trust his instincts and find a school that better suits him. And once again, all of the above is true, IMO, regardless of whether the school is quality or not. It's as much about fit, about expectations and about instinct as it is about the quality of the school.

 

[Soren]

The "master" is 2nd Dan BB. He only teaches the class on occasion, and usualy for only 30 minutes of classtime or less, even when he is there at the dojang.

He employs two other black belts who, from my observations, are much more talented and knowledgable than the master. The master is very forgetting of the martial arts that is being taught and it makes him appear as though he doesn't practice enough, or isn't dedicated.

The two other employed BBs are very well trained and are very very talented. I find it a privelage to be taught by them.

I'd be curious how long the two junior instructors have been at the dojang. For example, if one of the junior instructors has been taught by the head instructor for many years, I think it would allay some of my misgivings. That is to say that if the head instructor can "create," for lack of a better word, a talented instructor it reflects positively on his tutelage at least somewhat.

That being said, I'd probably give it another belt and if your misgivings persist, I'd look elsewhere. I'm more patient than most however.

 

[chungdokwan123]

I can see where you're coming from. The thing is, I believe in intuition. I think that the misgivings will persist. I think that, often, initial impression are lasting impressions. If the OP has doubts about the school, he should trust his instincts and find a school that better suits him. And once again, all of the above is true, IMO, regardless of whether the school is quality or not. It's as much about fit, about expectations and about instinct as it is about the quality of the school.

Indeed.....initial impressions can be lasting impressions. However, have you never made an initial impression that was later seen to be incorrect? We must temper our zeal to form initial impressions.....especially when we are approaching something from the perspective of a novice. That means that sometimes we form impressions when we don't really know enough about a given situation.......and that is unfair to both parties.

I, too, was uncertain of many things at the time of my first testing. Not about the school or the instruction......I had watched my son progress to 4th Gup at our dojang. I had doubts about myself and my ability......and actually entertained questions about my instructor's ability and program when I found myself forgetting things........in other words, I inadvertently turned my own shortcomings into questions about something else.

What many beginners fail at initially is patience. I recall my own son having doubts at the start of his training......and then experienced them myself.

In short, this student needs to take a little more time to find his feet. While I do not know the full content of the material he has learned, the first testing, while very important, isn't nearly as heavy on material as later ones are.

 

[chungdokwan123]

I've been practicing TKD for around 2 months now and have already been promoted to High White Belt. My Graduation is the 20th of this month, and for some reason, I absolutely do NOT feel I deserve this promotion.

I'd ask you a question that I don't think has been asked yet......just what material have you tested on to this point? What have you learned in these two months?

Knowing that can provide more perspective.

For example, in American Chung Do Kwan, we follow this ranking system:
10th Gup-White Belt
9th Gup-White Belt with Yellow Stripe
8th Gup-Yellow Belt

.....each Gup above the belt color holds the stripe of the next belt until Brown Belt.

We typically test every three months.....until Blue Belt comes around. The volume of material at that level usually takes more time to become proficient at.

Now, at my 9th Gup testing, I had to demonstrate all 6 Kibbons, the usual 14 basic fundamental techniques, basic self-defense escapes, the usual 10 one-step sparring techniques, oral examination on basic Tae Kwon Do terminology in front of the testing board.......made up of one 4th Dan Master, one 5th Dan and my Kwon Jang Nim, a 7th Dan with 38 years experience.......followed by two rounds of sparring and then breaking. That was three tough hours considering the amount of material......and the fact that I'm 45 years old. I was as nervous as a cat crapping in a sandbox.

Just two weeks ago, I passed my testing to 8th Gup. Take all the aforementioned material, add on more oral questioning on TKD history, customs and courtesies, demonstrating all basic stances and knowing the advantages of each, Taeguk Il Chong, more advanced hand and foot techniques....I throw a mighty sorry crescent kick.....combination kicking, more self-defense escapes, and basic/advanced one steps.......that was another hellish testing......about three and one half hours.

Yet the point is that I left with much more confidence than I did after the first one. I expect to leave the next one with even more confidence......as well as more understanding of just what is what, and more qualified to judge what it is that I'm seeing. Things are starting to fall into place, whereas in the beginning I wondered if I would ever be able to remember all of this stuff, much less progress and become good at doing them.

Remember that progress is relative. Consider this.....in Kibbon Yuk Chong there is a spinning wheel kick to be performed. Do you really think that a testing official would expect the same level of competence in executing that kick from you as he would from a Green Belt? Would he expect the same level of competence from the Green Belt as he would from a Black Belt?

Absolutely not.

Not knowing anything specific about your school puts one offering advice at a disadvantage, but knowing what you are learning would help.

 

[Steve]

Indeed.....initial impressions can be lasting impressions. However, have you never made an initial impression that was later seen to be incorrect? We must temper our zeal to form initial impressions.....especially when we are approaching something from the perspective of a novice. That means that sometimes we form impressions when we don't really know enough about a given situation.......and that is unfair to both parties.

Of course, but this isn't about fairness. The OP is a consumer, spending his money. If he has misgivings, whether correct or not, I am of the opinion that he should trust his instincts and move on.

It's very simple. If I go to a restaurant and don't enjoy myself, I will probably not go back. Maybe they had an off day. Maybe the server was new, or perhaps he or she was distracted by personal problems. Maybe he or she was fired two days later for poor performance. Perhaps these issues were in the kitchen. Bottom line, my initial perception of this business was poor... whether just or not. It's BUSINESS and a business often has (or deserves) only one chance to make a good impression.

There is often what I consider to be a misplaced attempt to overly personalize what is (or at least begins as) a business relationship. This is particularly true in TKD, where a school is as likely as not to be very commercial in nature.

To suggest that he stick it out, investing his time and his money because he might be making a mistake is ludicrous. The onus is not on the OP. He's the one spending his money. He's the one committing his time. The onus is on the owner of the school. It's up to him to make a good impression. It's up to him to operate his school in a way that instills confidence in his students. Absent these things, he risks losing his students, and rightfully so.

Regarding patience, I find that entire line of reasoning to be patronizing garbage. I train in a style that is among the most tedious and grinding to learn, and among the slowest to promote. I have a great deal of patience where learning my art is concerned. But I would have little patience for the things described by the OP. Once again, there is a clear distinction in my mind between those things that have to do with teaching the art and those things that have to do with running the business of teaching the art. While many schools incorrectly muddle the two, they are not the same and the consumer... the student... need not suffer through the latter. This is particularly so in a style as pervasive as TKD. If he's committed to that style, he surely has MANY choices of schools.

 

[myusername]

Indeed.....initial impressions can be lasting impressions. However, have you never made an initial impression that was later seen to be incorrect? We must temper our zeal to form initial impressions.....especially when we are approaching something from the perspective of a novice. That means that sometimes we form impressions when we don't really know enough about a given situation.......and that is unfair to both parties.

I, too, was uncertain of many things at the time of my first testing. Not about the school or the instruction......I had watched my son progress to 4th Gup at our dojang. I had doubts about myself and my ability......and actually entertained questions about my instructor's ability and program when I found myself forgetting things........in other words, I inadvertently turned my own shortcomings into questions about something else.

What many beginners fail at initially is patience. I recall my own son having doubts at the start of his training......and then experienced them myself.

In short, this student needs to take a little more time to find his feet. While I do not know the full content of the material he has learned, the first testing, while very important, isn't nearly as heavy on material as later ones are.

I would say that you do make some well argued points but at the end of the day as BJJSteve says Galens is actually paying for this. Additionally depending on contractual obligations the OP may not have the option to be patient. Galens might already be signed and paid up or this might be the chance to get out before committing any further money or time. Why tie yourself up contractually to something you are unsure of.

I do believe that Galens should leave and have a good shop around if the option is there. Once seeing some other schools Galens may decide that the original school was the best and return. However at the moment Galen's has doubts, so if not tied up with one of those ghastly contracts I think that the best thing to do is leave and have a look around.

 

[Steve]

I would say that you do make some well argued points but at the end of the day as BJJSteve says Galens is actually paying for this. Additionally depending on contractual obligations the OP may not have the option to be patient. Galens might already be signed and paid up or this might be the chance to get out before committing any further money or time. Why tie yourself up contractually to something you are unsure of.

I do believe that Galens should leave and have a good shop around if the option is there. Once seeing some other schools Galens may decide that the original school was the best and return. However at the moment Galen's has doubts, so if not tied up with one of those ghastly contracts I think that the best thing to do is leave and have a look around.

You bring up a very good point. In general, I try not to burn bridges. If the owner of the school chooses to personalize things, no one can help that. But presuming the owner of the school is professional about it, there's no reason that the OP couldn't leave the school and do his shopping around and then make an educated decision about where he would like to spend his money and his time.

This is true even if he's convinced he'll never be back. There's no reason to burn a bridge.

 

[dbell]

I've read through the whole thread up to this posting, and I have a few comments...

One, in MOST Asian styles, including TKD, you normally should be opening your own school at 3rd or 4th Dan, not 2nd Dan. (I know, in the US, many do it at 1st Dan...) I have concerns and doubts about most 2nd Dan Black Belts I've seen in 40 years of MA being able to teach and own a school at this level.

Second, a 2nd Dan should be in front of every class if (s)he does own a school, not just some classes, part time. (Heck, I think the school owner (and I am one myself) should be in front of EVERY class, ALL the time, or at least on the "mats" helping his/her Instructors while they are teaching classes.)

What are the ranks of the two BBs he hired? Were they trained by him (already asked by one poster), or by someone else?

From what I have read by the OP, I would move on if I wasn't tied to a contract, else once the contract was over I'd move on, but start looking for the right school now.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Of course, but this isn't about fairness. The OP is a consumer, spending his money. If he has misgivings, whether correct or not, I am of the opinion that he should trust his instincts and move on.

......so he's a consumer, spending his money. No reference to an aspiring martial artist. He's merely a consumer?

It's very simple. If I go to a restaurant and don't enjoy myself, I will probably not go back. Maybe they had an off day. Maybe the server was new, or perhaps he or she was distracted by personal problems. Maybe he or she was fired two days later for poor performance. Perhaps these issues were in the kitchen. Bottom line, my initial perception of this business was poor... whether just or not. It's BUSINESS and a business often has (or deserves) only one chance to make a good impression.

Of course it's your right to form whatever impressions you wish in whatever manner you wish to form them, yet the aforementioned process of evaluation speaks to closed-mindedness.

There is often what I consider to be a misplaced attempt to overly personalize what is (or at least begins as) a business relationship. This is particularly true in TKD, where a school is as likely as not to be very commercial in nature.

Perhaps this is the point that differentiates your thinking from mine. I haven't seen many schools in my area that are, at their very core, commercial in nature. I realize that they do exist......if you're referring to schools that routinely pass out the belts. Perhaps it is my thinking that is biased in that my school charges ludicrously low fees......we refer to them as dues......that are just enough to keep the school open. My instructors might take home enough for gas money.......maybe. They do what they do primarily out of a love for their art.

To suggest that he stick it out, investing his time and his money because he might be making a mistake is ludicrous.

No....it is not ludicrous. He needs a little more time to be able to evaluate properly his situation. He does not yet have enough knowledge to render a proper judgment......and again, his peers here need to know what it is he is learning and at what pace.......in order to help him render that judgment that he solicited when he posted his concerns.

The onus is not on the OP. He's the one spending his money. He's the one committing his time. The onus is on the owner of the school. It's up to him to make a good impression. It's up to him to operate his school in a way that instills confidence in his students. Absent these things, he risks losing his students, and rightfully so.

Overall, I agree with you.....the onus is on the school to inspire confidence, but depending on the reasons for attending said school, and depending on the student, two months is simply not enough time to see the benefits of TKD training.

Regarding patience, I find that entire line of reasoning to be patronizing garbage.

Your abrasive manner notwithstanding, I do not see how my reasoning was patronizing. I was sharing about my own insecurities when I began training.....perhaps the poster has the same. That's not garbage.

I train in a style that is among the most tedious and grinding to learn, and among the slowest to promote. I have a great deal of patience where learning my art is concerned.

.......and my hat's off to ya concerning your style. I have sampled it. I had a personal day-long introduction with a student instructor in your style. I didn't really have an interest in it, but I was encouraged to try it, so I did. I came away with the feeling that your style is what I'll call "a young man's style". It's too damned hard on my body, but I respect the effectiveness of it to be sure. I also sampled Yoseikan Budo at the behest of one of my Masters......he also runs his own school in that art......and found it in the same class........very punishing to an older body.

But I would have little patience for the things described by the OP. Once again, there is a clear distinction in my mind between those things that have to do with teaching the art and those things that have to do with running the business of teaching the art. While many schools incorrectly muddle the two, they are not the same and the consumer... the student... need not suffer through the latter. This is particularly so in a style as pervasive as TKD. If he's committed to that style, he surely has MANY choices of schools.

I do not disagree with you IF the things the new student is seeing represent reality.......and I do not intend to be condescending to him by inferring a lack of judgment, but I have seen it myself........depending on the student and one's reasons for beginning training in the first place, supreme confidence in self and in the program of training does not always materialize overnight.......or even after the first testing.

I'll close with an example. I recall, after having joined the Army, that my time in basic training was nothing short of complete and total confusion, as it was for most folks. It was only after having graduated and having gone on to advanced training and a permanent duty assignment that many of the things we pushed to do, and many of the things we were pushed to learn, which seemed nothing short of insane at the time, began to make sense and contributed to an understanding of what we were doing.

Now.....can you understand my concerns?

 

[Steve]

I appreciate the time you took to respond. I'll try to address each of your points in turn.

......so he's a consumer, spending his money. No reference to an aspiring martial artist. He's merely a consumer?

At two months in? Yeah. He's merely a consumer. Perhaps after a year or so, maybe two years, he might be an aspiring martial artist... but even then, he will ALSO be a consumer.

Of course it's your right to form whatever impressions you wish in whatever manner you wish to form them, yet the aforementioned process of evaluation speaks to closed-mindedness.

Really? When you receive poor food or service at a restaurant, do you go back repeatedly? I wouldn't call that open mindedness.

What I would call closemindedness would be to avoid trying the restaurant in the first place.

Perhaps this is the point that differentiates your thinking from mine. I haven't seen many schools in my area that are, at their very core, commercial in nature. I realize that they do exist......if you're referring to schools that routinely pass out the belts. Perhaps it is my thinking that is biased in that my school charges ludicrously low fees......we refer to them as dues......that are just enough to keep the school open. My instructors might take home enough for gas money.......maybe. They do what they do primarily out of a love for their art.

Does the school charge a fee for lessons? Does the student pay the school a regular fee? If so, they are commercial in nature. First and foremost. The relationship between a martial arts student and instructor in the USA has much in common with a gym membership. If your instructor chooses not to charge a large fee for his services, that's great for you. In the same way, a restuarant owner who chooses to charge just enough to keep his doors open would still be a business. Perhaps for him it's a labor of love. Perhaps his low prices engender loyalty from his customers. In the end, though, his restuarant is a business and if he jerks his customers around, they will choose not to spend their money there. In the same way, your instructor, as beneficent as he might be, is still running a business, and some part of your relationship to him is commercial.

No....it is not ludicrous. He needs a little more time to be able to evaluate properly his situation. He does not yet have enough knowledge to render a proper judgment......and again, his peers here need to know what it is he is learning and at what pace.......in order to help him render that judgment that he solicited when he posted his concerns.

I think that this is really, really funny when read immediately before reading this next bit from you:

.......and my hat's off to ya concerning your style. I have sampled it. I had a personal day-long introduction with a student instructor in your style. I didn't really have an interest in it, but I was encouraged to try it, so I did. I came away with the feeling that your style is what I'll call "a young man's style". It's too damned hard on my body, but I respect the effectiveness of it to be sure. I also sampled Yoseikan Budo at the behest of one of my Masters......he also runs his own school in that art......and found it in the same class........very punishing to an older body.

Personally, I think that you're mistaken, but I respect your opinion and would support your decision to train in a style that suits you. But salient to this discussion, according to your own standards, you aren't competent to form your own opinion. Further, according to your own advice, you should go back and pay the instructor for lessons until you're good enough to know that the style or school is not for you.

This is your own advice, and to be clear, I would give you the same advice I gave the OP. I would advise you to do exactly as you've done: try it and see what you think of the style and of the school. If it doesn't suit you, try something else until you find a combination that fits.

Just as an aside, BJJ is a true life sport, overall, less grueling on the body than just about any other MA. But I don't expect to convince you of that. You've formed an opinion and I respect that even if I disagree.

Overall, I agree with you.....the onus is on the school to inspire confidence, but depending on the reasons for attending said school, and depending on the student, two months is simply not enough time to see the benefits of TKD training.

This is surely true, but you're completely missing the point. Nowhere have I suggested the OP abandon TKD. I'm suggesting that the school might not be a good fit for him. You're saying that he can't form an opinion about the business unless he's an expert in TKD. I disagree. Just as I don't need to be an expert restauranteur in order to know bad service when I see it, the OP can form a competent personal opinion on his TKD school without being a green belt (or whatever).

Your abrasive manner notwithstanding, I do not see how my reasoning was patronizing. I was sharing about my own insecurities when I began training.....perhaps the poster has the same. That's not garbage.

Abrasive??? In THIS specific sub-forum, I'm the one being abrasive?

Anyway. What is patronizing is your entire line of reasoning. This idea that the OP doesn't have patience or intelligence or experience enough to understand. It's too big for him to grasp. You are shifting responsibility from the school owner to the student. According to you, it's not the school's fault that the student has doubts; it's the student's fault for being ignorant.

I do not disagree with you IF the things the new student is seeing represent reality.......and I do not intend to be condescending to him by inferring a lack of judgment, but I have seen it myself........depending on the student and one's reasons for beginning training in the first place, supreme confidence in self and in the program of training does not always materialize overnight.......or even after the first testing.

Once again, I want to distinguish between our understanding of the material being taught and our ability to guage the business or quality of instruction. Students routinely critique the instructor in business and in college. While the student rarely understands the material as well as the instructor, the students are certainly competent to form an opinion on the instructional methods and quality of their experience. Do you see the distinction?

I'll close with an example. I recall, after having joined the Army, that my time in basic training was nothing short of complete and total confusion, as it was for most folks. It was only after having graduated and having gone on to advanced training and a permanent duty assignment that many of the things we pushed to do, and many of the things we were pushed to learn, which seemed nothing short of insane at the time, began to make sense and contributed to an understanding of what we were doing.

Major difference here. They were paying you. The relationship between a DI/TI and a recruit is a very different one than the relationship between an MA instructor/coach/sensei and the people who pay for MA instruction.

The OP is a consumer, not an employee. In your example, you were an employee. As an employer, within the law, I can pretty much train you as well or as poorly as I want. I mean, within OSHA standards (and, of course, other legal standards). Very, very different situation. I'm paying you to do what I ask you to do. So, if I want to pay you $10 per hour to count paperclips, you need to do that, or quit, or risk being fired.