kenpoworks
Purple Belt
teej said:
Side kicks
- Thread starter Dominic Jones
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R
rmcrobertson
Guest
The problem is that the "chamber," in Long Form 2 has a purpose or three, and they are elided if you don't teach it that way.
Mr. Robertson has pointed out some very good ideas for learning to side kick properly. However, I am not clear of his definition of how the kick is chambered.
If you mean that the side kicking foot is chambered next to the supporting legs knee, then like Kenpoworks, I totally disagree. That is wasted motion for the purpose of this kick in this form. **Notice, I stated for this kicks purpose in this form. Long2.***
It is very possible that you learned it differently and I have no doubt that you know how to side kick and you know how to properly teach a side kick. But keep in mind that SGM Parker taught everything in a methodical and logical order. Students in Parker Kenpo have previously learned 3 forms, Shrt 1, Lng 1, Shrt 2, without doing any kicks. The left side kick is the very first kick in a Parker form that you learn and execute.
Can the side kick be chambered next to the knee? Yes. Is it supposed to be chambered next to the supporting leg knee in Long 2? NO! In Long Form 2, the snapping side kick is taught to show and teach the student the relationship between the hand and foot. That is why the side kick snaps out just like the left verticle punch does.
Like I said, you can change how the leg is chambered, but then that changes the principle Mr. Parker was teaching here. Again, the side kick in Long Form 2, is the very first kick the Parker Kenpo student learns in a FORM. For this side kick in THIS form, the student is suppose to learn, see, realize, understand, the relationship of the hand and the foot. More specifically, the relationship between the SNAPPING verticle punch and the SNAPPING side kick. That is one of the reasons they are executed together. The student should be in a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock. The snapping verticle punch is originating from a position similar to a boxers. The left hand is up by the face and the left elbow is pointed down towards your left hip. (kind of like the verticle outward block postion previously done) The kick should "jab" out from the point of origin. Chambering this particular type of side kick to your supporting legs knee would "telegraph" your intent and change its method of execution. The knee lifts straight up from the neutral bow position and the side kick hinges or snaps out. It is a low kick. It is not a high. It is not even a waiste or belt level kick. Maybe to some, what I described is a type of chamber. I see it differently.
I have used the method described by Mr. Roberston, to help teach side kicks. But not for the kind of side kick employed in Long Form 2.
Yours in Kenpo,
Teej
If you mean that the side kicking foot is chambered next to the supporting legs knee, then like Kenpoworks, I totally disagree. That is wasted motion for the purpose of this kick in this form. **Notice, I stated for this kicks purpose in this form. Long2.***
It is very possible that you learned it differently and I have no doubt that you know how to side kick and you know how to properly teach a side kick. But keep in mind that SGM Parker taught everything in a methodical and logical order. Students in Parker Kenpo have previously learned 3 forms, Shrt 1, Lng 1, Shrt 2, without doing any kicks. The left side kick is the very first kick in a Parker form that you learn and execute.
Can the side kick be chambered next to the knee? Yes. Is it supposed to be chambered next to the supporting leg knee in Long 2? NO! In Long Form 2, the snapping side kick is taught to show and teach the student the relationship between the hand and foot. That is why the side kick snaps out just like the left verticle punch does.
Like I said, you can change how the leg is chambered, but then that changes the principle Mr. Parker was teaching here. Again, the side kick in Long Form 2, is the very first kick the Parker Kenpo student learns in a FORM. For this side kick in THIS form, the student is suppose to learn, see, realize, understand, the relationship of the hand and the foot. More specifically, the relationship between the SNAPPING verticle punch and the SNAPPING side kick. That is one of the reasons they are executed together. The student should be in a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock. The snapping verticle punch is originating from a position similar to a boxers. The left hand is up by the face and the left elbow is pointed down towards your left hip. (kind of like the verticle outward block postion previously done) The kick should "jab" out from the point of origin. Chambering this particular type of side kick to your supporting legs knee would "telegraph" your intent and change its method of execution. The knee lifts straight up from the neutral bow position and the side kick hinges or snaps out. It is a low kick. It is not a high. It is not even a waiste or belt level kick. Maybe to some, what I described is a type of chamber. I see it differently.
I have used the method described by Mr. Roberston, to help teach side kicks. But not for the kind of side kick employed in Long Form 2.
Yours in Kenpo,
Teej
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Sorry, but that side kick in Long 2 is suppoosed to back up a student's education in how to side kick, and is taught with a chamber to emphasize: a) proper shaping of the weapon; b) strong stance/balance; c) pivoting on the support leg and good hip rotation; d) developing the leg's, "return," muscles in the kick.
I don't think that the foot should chamber to knee height, no, but to the calf with the toe down in this form. I'd also point out that while the kick is indeed supposed to be kept in relation with the hand, this relation seems to be enacted as a chambering of upper and lower case at the same time. Yes, it's a low kick--a snapping, knife-edge side-kick to (as one good choice) the shin against an opponent who's fairly close--and it's accompanied with a short, jabbing vertical punch.
It has been my observation that students who don't do the kick that way tend to, "lurch," into it. I don't think "telegraphing," is the issue here--where you consider telegraphing, I consider an erasure of an application or three. I mean, do you also eliminate the, "C," steps that take you into the reverse bows/neutral bows that go to first nine, and then three?
Incidentally, I'd also thought that Kicking Set was taught before Long 2, and that set certainly has a coupla side kicks in it.
Still--as I noted--I did hit a point when I had to redo some side-kicks for very much the reasons you mention. But not in this form, I think.
I don't think that the foot should chamber to knee height, no, but to the calf with the toe down in this form. I'd also point out that while the kick is indeed supposed to be kept in relation with the hand, this relation seems to be enacted as a chambering of upper and lower case at the same time. Yes, it's a low kick--a snapping, knife-edge side-kick to (as one good choice) the shin against an opponent who's fairly close--and it's accompanied with a short, jabbing vertical punch.
It has been my observation that students who don't do the kick that way tend to, "lurch," into it. I don't think "telegraphing," is the issue here--where you consider telegraphing, I consider an erasure of an application or three. I mean, do you also eliminate the, "C," steps that take you into the reverse bows/neutral bows that go to first nine, and then three?
Incidentally, I'd also thought that Kicking Set was taught before Long 2, and that set certainly has a coupla side kicks in it.
Still--as I noted--I did hit a point when I had to redo some side-kicks for very much the reasons you mention. But not in this form, I think.
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
teej....Again, the side kick in Long Form 2, is the very first kick the Parker Kenpo student learns in a FORM"...Yeah, I agree again teej, at this level the student is well versed in the various methods of executing side kicks from Kicking Set#1 as well as Techniques, Checking the Storm, Introduces the Side Kick to Kenpoka.
The side kick that you describe is a new challenge takes a bit of work and is a lot harder to try and perfect than it looks, if your posture, basic stances and manoeuvres are poor then this kick could look like an uncontrolled lunge.
Rich
The side kick that you describe is a new challenge takes a bit of work and is a lot harder to try and perfect than it looks, if your posture, basic stances and manoeuvres are poor then this kick could look like an uncontrolled lunge.
Rich
Again Mr. Roberts, you point to execellent aspects that the student needs to know to properly do a side kick. But not in this form, Long 2.
Look at what you posted. quote "c) pivoting on the support leg and good hip rotation" This is for a "thrusting side kick". Completely different power principle. This is not done the way the side kick should be taught in this form. When you pivot the supporting leg and rotate the hips, the side kick becomes a thrusting side kick. Long 2 is a snapping kick. Pivoting and hip rotation is wasted motion if you are doing a snapping kick. That would be like a boxer pulling his hip and shoulder back before jabbing.
The front leg snapping side kicking leg is raised from its point of origin in a neutral bow stance. The foot does need to be properly formed. The student does have to have a strong stance and balance. But the kick leg just hinges outward from the knee in the snapping motion, then comes back and the foot is replaced to the neutral bow position. There is no pivoting of the supporting leg and there is no hip rotation with this type of side kick.
Yes there is a kicking set, but not everyone teaches it these days, and as you know, in EP American Kenpo,there is a difference between a set and a form.
Possibly, if we contacted Doc, he will shed some more light on why SGM Parker made this decision of this being the first kick in a form. The students that you see lurching into it are trying to do the kick properly. Their weight should not be leaning forward into the kick. Again, this is a very fast and quick kick. For the student to lift the leg this way, there is a very minute weight shift to the rear leg. But not the major weight shift you would have doing a thrusting side kick.
It is very possible, especially these days, that you were taught the form differently than I. An instuctor may have been trying to teach you something differently if you learned to pivot and rotate the hip when side kicking in this section of Long 2. Again Mr. Robertson, I agree with your points on a side kick especially when I see so many practitioners doing side kicks that look like round house kicks. (but not my students) I teach all the aspects that you brought up.
But not in Long Form 2. It is a very fast snapping side kick. There is no hip rotation and no supporting leg pivoting here.
Yours in Kenpo, Teej
Look at what you posted. quote "c) pivoting on the support leg and good hip rotation" This is for a "thrusting side kick". Completely different power principle. This is not done the way the side kick should be taught in this form. When you pivot the supporting leg and rotate the hips, the side kick becomes a thrusting side kick. Long 2 is a snapping kick. Pivoting and hip rotation is wasted motion if you are doing a snapping kick. That would be like a boxer pulling his hip and shoulder back before jabbing.
The front leg snapping side kicking leg is raised from its point of origin in a neutral bow stance. The foot does need to be properly formed. The student does have to have a strong stance and balance. But the kick leg just hinges outward from the knee in the snapping motion, then comes back and the foot is replaced to the neutral bow position. There is no pivoting of the supporting leg and there is no hip rotation with this type of side kick.
Yes there is a kicking set, but not everyone teaches it these days, and as you know, in EP American Kenpo,there is a difference between a set and a form.
Possibly, if we contacted Doc, he will shed some more light on why SGM Parker made this decision of this being the first kick in a form. The students that you see lurching into it are trying to do the kick properly. Their weight should not be leaning forward into the kick. Again, this is a very fast and quick kick. For the student to lift the leg this way, there is a very minute weight shift to the rear leg. But not the major weight shift you would have doing a thrusting side kick.
It is very possible, especially these days, that you were taught the form differently than I. An instuctor may have been trying to teach you something differently if you learned to pivot and rotate the hip when side kicking in this section of Long 2. Again Mr. Robertson, I agree with your points on a side kick especially when I see so many practitioners doing side kicks that look like round house kicks. (but not my students) I teach all the aspects that you brought up.
But not in Long Form 2. It is a very fast snapping side kick. There is no hip rotation and no supporting leg pivoting here.
Yours in Kenpo, Teej
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
I have seen this kick performed numerous times in in Form commpetition at various heights, from the chambered position and while pivoting on the supporting leg which protects the knee joint as well as adding torque, from a performance point of view it is an ok way to execute this kick.
Teej, after the side kick in LF2 you replant the foot into a Neutral Bow?
Rich
Teej, after the side kick in LF2 you replant the foot into a Neutral Bow?
Rich
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Sorry, I don't think so.
I happened to have been taught precisely the kick (by someone who knew exactly what she was teaching) I described as a snapping--repeat, snapping--side kick, directed against a close attacker's shin or ankle, well before I'd ever heard of Long Form 2. It may be useful to note that both my first teacher and a pretty-knowledgeable second teacher described the kick this way in Long Form 2.
The issue, however, isn't the kick. It's what you consider to be "waste motion," and what I do not see as a waste.
While of course sets and forms differ, it is worth noting that kenpo seems to me to be of a piece. The first kicking sets have a lot of, "waste motion," in them (at the corners, for example; in the step from a neutral bow to 3:00 to a horse stance towards 12:00, at the end), and yet--the motions aren't wasted. Similarly, I don't think this motion is wasted, any more than the c-step/reverse bow/neutral bow transition is wasted.
I will, of course, think about your argument and ask a question or two elsewhere. But I think you're wrong. As a last point, it may be worth noting that the kick you're describing would seem to be out of synch with the form as a whole, as well as with its, "Chinese," roots.
I happened to have been taught precisely the kick (by someone who knew exactly what she was teaching) I described as a snapping--repeat, snapping--side kick, directed against a close attacker's shin or ankle, well before I'd ever heard of Long Form 2. It may be useful to note that both my first teacher and a pretty-knowledgeable second teacher described the kick this way in Long Form 2.
The issue, however, isn't the kick. It's what you consider to be "waste motion," and what I do not see as a waste.
While of course sets and forms differ, it is worth noting that kenpo seems to me to be of a piece. The first kicking sets have a lot of, "waste motion," in them (at the corners, for example; in the step from a neutral bow to 3:00 to a horse stance towards 12:00, at the end), and yet--the motions aren't wasted. Similarly, I don't think this motion is wasted, any more than the c-step/reverse bow/neutral bow transition is wasted.
I will, of course, think about your argument and ask a question or two elsewhere. But I think you're wrong. As a last point, it may be worth noting that the kick you're describing would seem to be out of synch with the form as a whole, as well as with its, "Chinese," roots.
Yes Rich, a neutral bow. But only for a very brief moment. You finish in a neutral bow facing 9 as you started when begining this sequence. So your foot is at a 45 degree angle. So your left foot is now at the correct angle when you transition into a Right 45 degree cat stance before going and repeating this sequence facing 3 o'clock.
Well Mr. McRobertson, atleast we agree it is some form of a side kick here. I think at this point that we would have to meet to see each other do the kick. I don't know that we can properly make our point typing.
We are also in complete agreement that this is a "snapping side kick". I just don't agree that to snap the kick, you need to chamber the kicking foot next to the supporting knee, or that you need to pivot the leg or rotate your hips. You can snap the side kick out without doing that. That is why I refer to chambering next to the other knee along with hip rotation and pivioting here as wasted motion. Only because the way I execute the kick, you don't need to do these things here.
I also agree with the targets you mention. Exactly as I teach them.
The person that taught me, learned directly from SGM Parker. So as you and I appear to have credible backgrounds, I conclude that possibly you and I have been taught differently. Another possiblility is that Mr. Parker taught our instructors differently.
Also, I very seriously appreciate the fact that we can type and post about this in a civil fashion, where others slash away at each other. Thank you very much.
Yours in Kenpo, Teej
**Rich (Kenpoworks) check your PM. Even though the big pond is between us, I think we have the same lineage. In fact, I am going to be with 2-3 possibly 4 of your friends this weekend.***
Well Mr. McRobertson, atleast we agree it is some form of a side kick here. I think at this point that we would have to meet to see each other do the kick. I don't know that we can properly make our point typing.
We are also in complete agreement that this is a "snapping side kick". I just don't agree that to snap the kick, you need to chamber the kicking foot next to the supporting knee, or that you need to pivot the leg or rotate your hips. You can snap the side kick out without doing that. That is why I refer to chambering next to the other knee along with hip rotation and pivioting here as wasted motion. Only because the way I execute the kick, you don't need to do these things here.
I also agree with the targets you mention. Exactly as I teach them.
The person that taught me, learned directly from SGM Parker. So as you and I appear to have credible backgrounds, I conclude that possibly you and I have been taught differently. Another possiblility is that Mr. Parker taught our instructors differently.
Also, I very seriously appreciate the fact that we can type and post about this in a civil fashion, where others slash away at each other. Thank you very much.
Yours in Kenpo, Teej
**Rich (Kenpoworks) check your PM. Even though the big pond is between us, I think we have the same lineage. In fact, I am going to be with 2-3 possibly 4 of your friends this weekend.***
Robert, I do not follow your thinking on how this way of execution is "out of synch with Kenpo's Chinese roots". I may be wrong, but my understanding is that side kicks are not Chinese in origin anyway. I am pondering your observation though. But that is probably topic for another thread, unless you want to PM or e-mail me about it.
As long as you are going to reference other sources concerning our differences in thinking here. Let me try one more time with a different analogy to get my point across.
Durning the early years of the Internationals, Kenpo fighters developed a reputation for being "groin kickers". This stemmed in part from the way some fighters executed a lead leg front kick. While fighting, some Kenpo fighters would simply lift the front leg up off the ground and quickly snap out the front kick. They did not chamber all the way back to the supporting leg knee. The kick leg was lifted and the kick hinged forward from the knee. In essence, they were jabbing with their leg/foot.
Because this type of execution was not fully chambered back to the supporting leg knee, the front kicks were not very high. They did not have to be to be effective. Because of this, the kick often caught the opponent in the groin. Fast, effective and stunning, again like a boxers jab.
Certainly a lead leg front kick can be chambered back to the supporting legs knee. A lead leg front kick can kick high if chambered right and you can thrust with a lead leg kick. But in this type of situation, the EP Kenpo guys just lifted the leg and shot the foot out in the quickest fashion.
That is the same principle that I was taught to teach for the side kick in Long Form 2. Again, that is how I was taught and my instructor learned from SGM personally. There probably are other 1st generation instructors out there that may have learned and teach it differently. But this is how I was taught. If I recall somewhere else, Doc mentioned that he also taught not to chamber the kick in this form. Possibly, I can not type my wording accurately enough to make my point. But I appreciate the correspondence.
Sincerely your in Kenpo,
Teej
As long as you are going to reference other sources concerning our differences in thinking here. Let me try one more time with a different analogy to get my point across.
Durning the early years of the Internationals, Kenpo fighters developed a reputation for being "groin kickers". This stemmed in part from the way some fighters executed a lead leg front kick. While fighting, some Kenpo fighters would simply lift the front leg up off the ground and quickly snap out the front kick. They did not chamber all the way back to the supporting leg knee. The kick leg was lifted and the kick hinged forward from the knee. In essence, they were jabbing with their leg/foot.
Because this type of execution was not fully chambered back to the supporting leg knee, the front kicks were not very high. They did not have to be to be effective. Because of this, the kick often caught the opponent in the groin. Fast, effective and stunning, again like a boxers jab.
Certainly a lead leg front kick can be chambered back to the supporting legs knee. A lead leg front kick can kick high if chambered right and you can thrust with a lead leg kick. But in this type of situation, the EP Kenpo guys just lifted the leg and shot the foot out in the quickest fashion.
That is the same principle that I was taught to teach for the side kick in Long Form 2. Again, that is how I was taught and my instructor learned from SGM personally. There probably are other 1st generation instructors out there that may have learned and teach it differently. But this is how I was taught. If I recall somewhere else, Doc mentioned that he also taught not to chamber the kick in this form. Possibly, I can not type my wording accurately enough to make my point. But I appreciate the correspondence.
Sincerely your in Kenpo,
Teej
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
Teej,
I have "sorted out" my in box, please feel free to try again, I am looking forward to talking to you.
Rich
I have "sorted out" my in box, please feel free to try again, I am looking forward to talking to you.
Rich
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
OK, I thought about it, and checked with somebody very much in a position to know.
You've got a point: there isn't an need for that foot to be chambered as far up the leg as I mentioned. And, I have seen tapes in which that kick is thrown right from the ground, no pivot, no nothing.
However, I also have a point. The foot is brought back with the hip pivot towards a cat and crane, precisely to coordinate its movement with that of the upper case hand, which draws back simultaneously.
If you think about it, it would make a lot of sense to start students off with a kick that violate most of the principles of a good kick, but with one that demands some balance, some weight shifting, some hip rotation...
The remark I made about this being, "Un-Chinese," was fairly dumb on my part--just my general sense that none of the China-originated arts I've seen appear to have kicks done the way you're describing.
Thanks, again, for the discussion.
You've got a point: there isn't an need for that foot to be chambered as far up the leg as I mentioned. And, I have seen tapes in which that kick is thrown right from the ground, no pivot, no nothing.
However, I also have a point. The foot is brought back with the hip pivot towards a cat and crane, precisely to coordinate its movement with that of the upper case hand, which draws back simultaneously.
If you think about it, it would make a lot of sense to start students off with a kick that violate most of the principles of a good kick, but with one that demands some balance, some weight shifting, some hip rotation...
The remark I made about this being, "Un-Chinese," was fairly dumb on my part--just my general sense that none of the China-originated arts I've seen appear to have kicks done the way you're describing.
Thanks, again, for the discussion.
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
Hey distalero,
Please tell more, PM or online.
With Respect
Richard
Please tell more, PM or online.
With Respect
Richard
Teej has covered this in better detail than I would've, partly because it was a kick I never considered actually using (although I used to spar with someone who used it all the time. He was a prison guard, so maybe he had a specific reason). For Long 2 we were taught to lift the forward foot in just the way described. You have to understand that in those days the teaching method was a little different: there was, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, a bit more of a "trickle down" aspect to it. We didn't have manuals to refer to. If you wanted it, you learned by watching everyone, by asking, and by being corrected by seniors or the teacher, and to a lesser extent this applied to a form's content as well. So you could get some "interpretation" from the get go, vs. a strict "this is The Way It's Done". Anyhow, I was told that it was either a shin kick (which at best was really difficult for me to do with enough power to kick through my oponent's adrenaline rush), or a shin check with an implied scrape. The common mistake many of us made was to lift the forward foot higher, hop in the air ala a "chicken kick", and actually chamber, or at least lift, the rear foot as you turned to face the next attacker (showing type of kick and evasive move?). Consequently the whole move ended up feeling less than effective, so in my youthful indiscretion I just glossed it over, not something I'm proud of now. That's why I remember this kick, though. It was problematic, and we were frequently corrected in it, in the way Teej described.
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
Thanks.
Rich
Rich
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
In Long Form 2, the side-kick should be followed by a, "c-step," with the right foot that takes you to 3:00 in a reverse bow before turning to a right neutral bow, very much in the fashion of a technique such as, "Crushing Hammer."
As already pointed out, the feet should, "drag," along, only being lifted for the kicks.
As already pointed out, the feet should, "drag," along, only being lifted for the kicks.
masherdong
2nd Black Belt
I found that my toes are usually at a 6:00 position most of the time. Sometimes they are at a 7:00 position.
DuneViking
Blue Belt
Position of base leg has been proposed to face the rear 6:00 position, supposedly for stability, but I find myself much more stable perpdendicular to the target or 9:00. I prefer to impact flat with the heel keeping maximum surface area of the ankle bones together to diffuse the impact on them as in standing, which was stated earlier. I started out with the knife edge impact and may still do so on occasion when sparring, but it feels like I would twist the joint on a hard target. I am getting old and worry more about that stuff now!
