skk forms principles

[marlon]

1 Kata
Sequence 1: Left front kick right reverse punch (repeated opposite side)

Sequence 2: Turn ccw to face 6:00 Cross block upward, left low block, right thrust punch

Sequence 3: Facing 10:00Cross block downward close fisted, grab ,swing arms to right side of the body shoulder level hieght as left foot meets right facing 12:00, right leg steps out into a horse stance facing 12:00 as the arms swing to the left side of the body shoulder level

Sequence 4: facing 12:00 Circle hands counter clockwise coming to rest with left hand forming knife hand at face level and right arm over head in upward block position with open hand palm facing out

Sequence 5: facing 9:00 Double knife blocks, open cup and saucer (hidden hands) right spear poke

Sequence 6: facing 6:00 Right Dropping palm, left palm heel, right front kick

Sequence 7: Turn ccw to face 12:00 with left outward block then left back 2 knuckle then right foot meets left and cup and saucer on the left look right and simultaneous back fist side kick (repeated on either side)




I hope you do not mind that i hijacked your 1 kata with a few changes.

The opening sequence has the principle of hiding while striking. Until this form i was taught the pinans from a fist on ribs position, however the kata's are all with guards up.
the sequence after the punch kicks is where we encounter the principle of sink and draw away before a response. this teaches a form of stabilizing yourself in response to a situation or attack rather than just throwing your self out there arms and legs flying. It is found in many of the kata's...but only once in sho tung kwa.
also both sequences teach the high low / low high attack prevelant in kempo
just some starter thoughts. i would love to hear others and discussions due to differences of opinion are great teachers. Again, do not bother to worry about my ego, i am here to share and learn and everything i said could be crap...i may ask you to prove it so, though...

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

I believe 1 kata to be a great outlook on Kempo, especially the opening sequence. The underlying principle I teach in the opening sequence is that we always want to drive our attacker backwards and/or keep them off balance.

With the second sequence I reenforce that every block is a strike and every strike a block. The cross block, although defensive, becomes offensive by striking the elbow to hyperextend.

Marlon you had posted aways back about the sequence of dropping into horse with the low cross block and that the low horse is unnecessary. In application I agree whole heartedly and that it is teaching us to drop our weight using what AK calls Marriage of Gravity. I believe the dropping into horse is kind of like bolding text, its not necessary it just points and says "look here!".

Great Thread Marlon, I look forward to sharing thoughts! And again if you agree or do not agree with my thoughts I don't care, just offer something of your own "for the better understanding and application of kempo".

JT

 

[marlon]

I believe 1 kata to be a great outlook on Kempo, especially the opening sequence. The underlying principle I teach in the opening sequence is that we always want to drive our attacker backwards and/or keep them off balance.

With the second sequence I reenforce that every block is a strike and every strike a block. The cross block, although defensive, becomes offensive by striking the elbow to hyperextend.

Marlon you had posted aways back about the sequence of dropping into horse with the low cross block and that the low horse is unnecessary. In application I agree whole heartedly and that it is teaching us to drop our weight using what AK calls Marriage of Gravity. I believe the dropping into horse is kind of like bolding text, its not necessary it just points and says "look here!".

Great Thread Marlon, I look forward to sharing thoughts! And again if you agree or do not agree with my thoughts I don't care, just offer something of your own "for the better understanding and application of kempo".

JT

Marriage of gravity, i agree completely! my comment in the other thread about not needing the horse stance nor so low was in context of application. this is one of the AK vocabulary that i have appropriated for SK. I think there may be more to it though, bnut i am not familiar enough yet to be sure.
i enjoy your input JT and look forward to more from you and anyone else

marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

Marriage of Gravity (as defined in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo by Ed Parker) - The uniting of mind, breath and strength while simultaneously dropping your body weight along with the execution of your natural weapon(s). Timing all of these factors with the dropping of your body weight greatly adds to the force of your strikes. This combined action literally causes a marriage of gravity, and makes vertical use of BODY MOMENTUM while employing the dimension of HEIGHT.


AK has helped me tremendously with my kenpo. All though I do have to say for me (all the AK practitioners can throw rotten veggies at me now) it can get a little too tedious with respect to naming every little thing and being a little too specific in doing such. I am NOT saying that SGM Parker should have done anything differently or that his system is flawed because of this I am only stating my opinion on how American Kenpo influences what I teach.

That got a little off topic sorry.

JT

 

[DavidCC]

I started down that same path about 2.5 years ago wth my SKK.

It has been 90% positive.

I am only recently starting to make progress with stances. half-moon stance - hips are square to 12, neutral bow, they are at 45. It was inconceivable how much this changes things.

Their terminology is very useful.

In Infinite Insights Mr. Parker makes it very clear that he is writing not for AK but for all Ks. (and all arts really).

Don't try to shoe-horn SKK into AK, but if an idea from SKK can be given a name from AK thatn that is low-hanging fruit for sure.

but some of it can be misleading. For exampe the force generated by gravity's acceleration is NOT the point of MoG. Think about the length of time that gravity has to exert it's acceleration on the fraction of your total mass you can get moving in a relevant diretion... fall from 18 inches or 18 feet which hurts and which does not? why?

Terms which have "common" definition sometimes have very specific kenpo dfinitions that might slightly differ from the common usage.

Here is my latest insight, thanks to Pete Starr - there is a cat stance in the middle of a half-moon step. now the squared-up HM can get some hip rotation on the step. AK approaches this COMPLETELY differently (forward bow, step-through crossover etc).

rambling, too much SQL today

 

[JTKenpo]

David, I'm not really sure where you are going with this post. Although the cat stance within a halfmoon should have been pointed out in the first move of one pinion as you draw into cat toward 9 oclock and then halfmoon into left half moon stance. Please don't take this as a derogatory comment, I'm just confused by your post. sorry

 

[Hand Sword]

All of the concepts and principles from AK do cross to SKK and can be applied to all arts, as they are based on scientific principles etc.. The only area that AK differs from SKK is in terminology for techniques. The techniques are universal. At least that's how I've seen it through my experience.

 

[marlon]

Although this does not quite fit on this thread, what is the benefit of having the hips angled off to 45 degrees when you are applying force to 12:00? Do you use a fighting stance in your kempo? a forward stance? A cat stance in the halfmoon...i generally do not include transitions as stances...too many micro moments for my head to make it relevant..but perhaps i am misunderstanding..i have not read Infinite Insights yet..and the way it seems with all quasi religious documents those who come after interpret it from thier own ( i want to say agenda but do not want to insult anyone). Anyeho, i am trying to understand . you have found something that works well for you so i am for it!! Can you explain it a little more. Perhaps a thread of SKK using Infitie Insights would be in order and very helpful

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[kidswarrior]

Although this does not quite fit on this thread, what is the benefit of having the hips angled off to 45 degrees when you are applying force to 12:00? Do you use a fighting stance in your kempo? a forward stance? A cat stance in the halfmoon...i generally do not include transitions as stances...too many micro moments for my head to make it relevant..but perhaps i am misunderstanding..i have not read Infinite Insights yet..and the way it seems with all quasi religious documents those who come after interpret it from thier own ( i want to say agenda but do not want to insult anyone). Anyeho, i am trying to understand . you have found something that works well for you so i am for it!! Can you explain it a little more. Perhaps a thread of SKK using Infitie Insights would be in order and very helpful

respectfully,
Marlon

I would wholeheartedly support this. I have the books, but haven't found time (read: been forced ) to delve into them to any real depth yet. Such a thread would be really beneficial for me.

1 Kata
Sequence 1: Left front kick right reverse punch (repeated opposite side)

The one thing I started emphasizing awhile back was Iain Abernethy's Kata principle, that a returning hand is meant to have something in it. So I try to teach my guys to think in terms of having a handful of shirt in that returning fist, pulling opponent into second kick. Wouldn't always work out in a real situation, but if they practice it, it could mean unbalancing that one opponent which would make a difference in the outcome.

Sequence 2: Turn ccw to face 6:00 Cross block upward, left low block, right thrust punch

Using the same concept, the first time we tried making this turn with the 12:00 opponent's shirt/upper arm/or neck in that right hand, it became a powerful throw (often over the hip)--and usually right into his 6:00 friend.

Anyway, just a thought.

 

[JTKenpo]

Kidswarrior got us back on point...nice job.

I like the fist full of shirt with the returning hand, that is a great concept. Another use I have seen on a cup and saucer is using it as a downward parry.

When we start to delve into the form principles one of the key things I point out is that many forms have sets within them, one kata being no exception. These sets are reminding us over and over and over that you should not practice techniques on one side only, but rather become as close to ambidexturous as possible. These sets remind us that "if you can do it with the right you can do it with the left"

 

[kidswarrior]

Kidswarrior got us back on point...nice job.

Thanks.

I like the fist full of shirt with the returning hand, that is a great concept. Another use I have seen on a cup and saucer is using it as a downward parry.

Interesting idea. I like it.

When we start to delve into the form principles one of the key things I point out is that many forms have sets within them, one kata being no exception. These sets are reminding us over and over and over that you should not practice techniques on one side only, but rather become as close to ambidexturous as possible. These sets remind us that "if you can do it with the right you can do it with the left"

Another good point.

 

[DavidCC]

David, I'm not really sure where you are going with this post. Although the cat stance within a halfmoon should have been pointed out in the first move of one pinion as you draw into cat toward 9 oclock and then halfmoon into left half moon stance. Please don't take this as a derogatory comment, I'm just confused by your post. sorry

No prob, but I don't mean use the cat while turning from 12 to 9.
I mean half-moon stepping straight ahead, from left half moon facing 12 to right half moon facing 12.

Although this does not quite fit on this thread, what is the benefit of having the hips angled off to 45 degrees when you are applying force to 12:00? Do you use a fighting stance in your kempo? a forward stance? A cat stance in the halfmoon...i generally do not include transitions as stances...too many micro moments for my head to make it relevant..but perhaps i am misunderstanding..

At the moment I begin my punch, if my hips are squared up to my target, I can't get my core strength or lower platform (legs) into the punch. The twisting of the hips adds to the power. For maximum effect, the hips need to rotate from 45 off target to facing target. AK uses the neurtral bow stance, which has the hips angled 45 degrees (1:30 or 10:30) and for a rear-hand punch they rotate the hips (and rear foot) to 12. SKK uses the half-moon stance which has the hips oriented to 12.

So, while stepping forward with the right foot, (and this is just something I've been playing with,) try turning the toes of the right foot to 130 as it passes the left foot, let the hip be relaxed so it turns with the foot, then step forward and punch ending up all at 12.

A "fighting stance"? Well, we do "spar", where we square up like kickboxers and play. In those games I use a right or left neutral bow. If attacked unexpectedly then NO I don't have a fighting stance, really. You know the techniques as well as I do or better even so I don't have to explain how stances are used.

In katas, the half moon stance and step is used extensively. The execution of a single maneuver (step-thru punch) can be isolated and perfected in kata, then wherever a technique or a situation calls for that maneuver, atomically, you have it. So, looking at the step through punch using the half-moon, I came to these conclusions.

 

[DavidCC]

All of the concepts and principles from AK do cross to SKK and can be applied to all arts, as they are based on scientific principles etc.. The only area that AK differs from SKK is in terminology for techniques. The techniques are universal. At least that's how I've seen it through my experience.

i have not read Infinite Insights yet..and the way it seems with all quasi religious documents those who come after interpret it from thier own ( i want to say agenda but do not want to insult anyone). Anyeho, i am trying to understand . you have found something that works well for you so i am for it!! Can you explain it a little more. Perhaps a thread of SKK using Infitie Insights would be in order and very helpful

respectfully,
Marlon

I've read it a few times. Once real fast because I just got it and didn't know anything about kempo. Then slower so that I could understand what it means. Now I just cherry pick pieces of interest. I recommend it.

All of the concepts and principles from AK do cross to SKK and can be applied to all arts, as they are based on scientific principles etc..

Welllllll, mostly I guess. I think AK specifies and delineates many things that, if taught to SKK students, they could understand and even identify within what they are already doing, even if the ideas are not part of their curriculum there is a common ground. I think AK's techniques are more carefully architected to teach specific ideas in layers whereas SKK's are more traditional (we do them because we do them) and there is less systematic exploration of ideas in a strategic fashion. So in SKK many ideas are left out or left to be interpolated by the students.

The only area that AK differs from SKK is in terminology for techniques. The techniques are universal. At least that's how I've seen it through my experience.

there are stances and blocks within each system that are not used in the other. But I could probably describe a ballet as kenpo techniques so I'm not sure what you mean by "universal".

You can 'translate' things from one into the language of the other but it is confusing. "right neutral bow" = "horse stance facing 1030 while looking to 12" which, really, is dysfunctional becasue I just gave you 2 directions for you to be "facing" and how can you have any kind of intent / focus without understanding which direction you are facing?

In Ak terms a left half moon is a "modified left forward bow" and the AK guys will be wondering why would you be standing in a transitional stance like that? And depending on the lineage that might not even describe it...

but overall I really HAVE had TONS of benefit from studying what these American Kenpo people do. Where I have had less success is in trying to map it too specifically to SKK.

 

[LawDog]

Most impacting techniques are the same, they just follow different flow patterns. The differences usually show when Judo/Jujitsu techniques have been inserted into the impacting patterns.
Tacticle theory transends into all styles, pure theory is boundless.
Tis cool
:ultracool

 

[marlon]

No prob, but I don't mean use the cat while turning from 12 to 9.
I mean half-moon stepping straight ahead, from left half moon facing 12 to right half moon facing 12.



At the moment I begin my punch, if my hips are squared up to my target, I can't get my core strength or lower platform (legs) into the punch. The twisting of the hips adds to the power. For maximum effect, the hips need to rotate from 45 off target to facing target. AK uses the neurtral bow stance, which has the hips angled 45 degrees (1:30 or 10:30) and for a rear-hand punch they rotate the hips (and rear foot) to 12. SKK uses the half-moon stance which has the hips oriented to 12.



the square on half moon stance is an end \product showing the directional end point for the generated power, however all movement is directed through the waist the way i teach it. i do not stop then punch in my forms and if i am not "moving" when i strike then there is motion from the waist that directs the power.



So, while stepping forward with the right foot, (and this is just something I've been playing with,) try turning the toes of the right foot to 130 as it passes the left foot, let the hip be relaxed so it turns with the foot, then step forward and punch ending up all at 12.

A "fighting stance"? Well, we do "spar", where we square up like kickboxers and play. In those games I use a right or left neutral bow. If attacked unexpectedly then NO I don't have a fighting stance, really. You know the techniques as well as I do or better even so I don't have to explain how stances are used.


[COLOR="Blue"]As much as possible practice the way you intend to fight...this includes the forms. This is why i train the kata's with a guard and a fighting stance mostly...all other stances are utilitarian in nature and transitory
[/COLOR]


In katas, the half moon stance and step is used extensively. The execution of a single maneuver (step-thru punch) can be isolated and perfected in kata, then wherever a technique or a situation calls for that maneuver, atomically, you have it. So, looking at the step through punch using the half-moon, I came to these conclusions.

i see what you see i have just been taught differently and practice differently. The half moons are more traditional and so i keep them as part of the Okinawan heritage we have fromn Prof.Cerio but are not kempo proper so outside of these training tools i do not use the stance. Half mooning as a stepping method is a different question all together but need not end in a traditional half moon stance. And,. although i shift my wieght entirely to one leg as i transit i would not consider it a cat stance and i only use the cat stance as a functional transitory stance and a training tool not a fighting stance.


i messed up with the multiquoting so my responses are in blue. Apologies
respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

"although i shift my wieght entirely to one leg as i transit i would not consider it a cat stance and i only use the cat stance as a functional transitory stance and a training tool not a fighting stance."

The very specific thing I am referring to hear i what are your hips doing while that weight is on the one foot. I'm suggesting that you turn your hips so that, for that split second, you are in a 45 cat. it is exactly a 'transitory stance'.

"if i am not "moving" when i strike then there is motion from the waist that directs the power"

I am talking about both moving forward and torquing from the waist together, not one or the other maybe I misunderstand you here.

 

[JTKenpo]

Lets see what was the title of this thread, oh thats right skk forms principles.....did we ever get past one kata?

Ok two kata....the opening teaches us that when stepping backward block with the opposite hand. This is also the form where we start to deal with diaganols, 45 deg, the corners of the box, etc.

I always thought it was odd that we had to wait until advanced blue (blue with stripe) to delve into these two concepts. None the less its a start.

 

[marlon]

2 kata the beginning of fighting while moving backwards!!!

Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

2 kata the beginning of fighting while moving backwards!!!

Marlon

doesn't combo 7 move backwards?

mebbe my 7 is different, maybe it comes earlier for us... but that yellow belt tech starts with moving backwards on a diagonal.

 

[JTKenpo]

It is the first form which moves backwards while fighting.


What else does 2 kata hold in the way of principles?

I can think of line reinforcement. The act of moving up and back on the same line either in the same direction or opposite. 2 kata has both.

What else?