Should Off Duty Officers Carry Guns In Bars?

[MJS]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40531693/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

BALTIMORE — Off-duty police officer Gahiji Tshamba was enjoying a summer evening in a historic neighborhood known for its nightlife when he encountered trouble around closing time. He was carrying his department-issued, semiautomatic Glock handgun — unfortunately, as it turned out.

After he left the Red Maple nightclub around 1:30 a.m., Tshamba saw a man groping a woman and confronted him, starting a heated argument. The officer eventually drew his gun and emptied the clip, firing 13 shots — 12 of which struck and killed Tyrone Brown, an unarmed Iraq war veteran. The June 5 shooting resulted in a murder charge for Tshamba.

Thought this was an interesting article. Looking forward to hearing from the LEOs here.

 

[Touch Of Death]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40531693/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/




Thought this was an interesting article. Looking forward to hearing from the LEOs here.

13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
sean

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I believe all honest people who want to have some control of their own safety should in fact train regularly, and carry a gun everywhere they go period. Law enforcement or not.

 

[Archangel M]

13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice.

********. The typical tripe spouted by people clueless about the dynamics of gunfights. A close brother to "shoot to wound..hit them in the leg or something". You shoot till the threat is no longer a threat, regardless of the number of rounds. Even if it means loading another magazine. The real issue is the justification for firing even one shot. Sounds like someone has seen too many movies where one shot is almost always immediately fatal.

 

[punisher73]

For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar. It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.

Alcohol and guns don't mix. If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.

I don't drink, but I also only choose places that are very well regulated and cater to a slightly older crowd. I have never felt the need to have it with me while I was IN the bar due to safety reasons. I choose to not go to places that are meat markets and people are there for the sole purpose of hooking up etc. Those places usually have a lot more trouble that I try to avoid.

 

[rlobrecht]

I have an acquaintance who works for Houston PD. As I understand it from him, they have a 0.0% BAC limit for carrying.

Texas has concealed handgun licensing, and although the statue isn't clear (i.e. it says something like intoxicated) every instructor I've had says that most LEO's treat it as 0.0%.

I agree guns and alcohol don't mix.

Rick

 

[Archangel M]

For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar. It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.

Alcohol and guns don't mix. If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.

I don't drink, but I also only choose places that are very well regulated and cater to a slightly older crowd. I have never felt the need to have it with me while I was IN the bar due to safety reasons. I choose to not go to places that are meat markets and people are there for the sole purpose of hooking up etc. Those places usually have a lot more trouble that I try to avoid.

I agree. Just because I am going to have a drink or two doesn't mean I am no longer allowed to defend myself. Or that a shoot becomes "bad" purely because of my BAC. Intoxication is not a defense for criminal activity, therefore I don't think that it automatically precludes being legally within your rights to carry. However, I am 100% with you about the issue of what sort of environment you are taking that gun into. If you knowingly are going into an environment where you know the risk of confrontation fueled by booze is high...for your own pleasure/entertainment..THAT issue is what you will need to face vs the possession of the weapon in and of itself.

 

[Empty Hands]

Alcohol isn't a magic talisman. The same criteria should apply for carrying and impairment no matter what that impairment is. If you plan on getting drunk or even pretty tipsy, you should leave it at home. Better yet, drink at home with your friends - it's cheaper and the company is better! If your judgment is sound however, I don't see any reason why not. The alcohol won't force it's way down your throat and make you do dumb things with firearms.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar. It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.

Alcohol and guns don't mix. If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.

I don't drink, but I also only choose places that are very well regulated and cater to a slightly older crowd. I have never felt the need to have it with me while I was IN the bar due to safety reasons. I choose to not go to places that are meat markets and people are there for the sole purpose of hooking up etc. Those places usually have a lot more trouble that I try to avoid.

Wise advice!!!

 

[Touch Of Death]

********. The typical tripe spouted by people clueless about the dynamics of gunfights. A close brother to "shoot to wound..hit them in the leg or something". You shoot till the threat is no longer a threat, regardless of the number of rounds. Even if it means loading another magazine. The real issue is the justification for firing even one shot. Sounds like someone has seen too many movies where one shot is almost always immediately fatal.

You may call this tripe, but it is what they teach in criminal justice courses. Gunfight dynamics aside, you get to end the threat only. There are lots of people who are sitting in prison that lost site of that concept. Tripe as it may sound.
Sean

 

[KenpoTex]

You may call this tripe, but it is what they teach in criminal justice courses. Gunfight dynamics aside, you get to end the threat only. There are lots of people who are sitting in prison that lost site of that concept. Tripe as it may sound.
Sean

What exactly is it that they teach? You said yourself that "you get to end the threat only."

In a shooting, you shoot until the threat is stopped...whether you have to fire 2 rounds or 20 rounds to accomplish that is irrelevant. The only time the number of rounds fired is excessive is when that number exceeds what is necessary to stop the threat.

The old joke does have some truth to it...
"Why'd you shoot him 15 times?"
"Because 14 wasn't enough and 16 would have been too many."

 

[Touch Of Death]

What exactly is it that they teach? You said yourself that "you get to end the threat only."

In a shooting, you shoot until the threat is stopped...whether you have to fire 2 rounds or 20 rounds to accomplish that is irrelevant. The only time the number of rounds fired is excessive is when that number exceeds what is necessary to stop the threat.

The old joke does have some truth to it...
"Why'd you shoot him 15 times?"
"Because 14 wasn't enough and 16 would have been too many."

You got me. LOL By all means shoot until the clip is empty. Just carry breath mints and get a good lawyer.
Sean

 

[jks9199]

You got me. LOL By all means shoot until the clip is empty. Just carry breath mints and get a good lawyer.
Sean

Reality check:

In a typical self-defense shooting -- and police shootings are the most common and the ones we have the most information about -- it's not at all uncommon for the shooter to fire their gun dry, and not remember or even realize how many times they've pulled the trigger.

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40531693/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/




Thought this was an interesting article. Looking forward to hearing from the LEOs here.

I believe that officers should be allowed to carry off duty.

I believe that they can go into bars and have a night of drinking.

I believe that since I cannot walk into a bar with a firearm this is disadvantage and infringement of my rights. But I see the current public understanding.

Yet I believe that officers should be held to same standards as I am. i.e. no alcohol while carrying a firearm.


So if the officer wants to go out and be armed then no alcohol. Alcohol can be present just not consumed. He is an officer and some priviledge can be granted given his position and occupation.

But if the officer drinks he should not have his firearm. Why? Because I cannot not. Same rules should apply in that case in my opinion.

 

[Archangel M]

Except that officers are allowed to do may things that others are not, for example I get to carry a weapon concealed without having to get a permit like everybody else. I can purchase a handgun "on my badge" unlike everybody else too. It's because the law says I can. It's easy to say "If I can't he shouldn't", but what it boils down to is what does the law...either statute or case law...say? And in some states, the issue of carry in a bar is typically a matter of the bar owner disallowing them, not an actual law. In others the law allows carry in a bar but disallows alcohol consumption.

Lesson? Know your local laws.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think we would all agree that alcohol and driving just does not work out to well! I simply do not think that any of us will argue that people should be allowed to drink and drive. Firearms and alcohol is similar the two just do not mix well! That being said I am all for LEO's and firearm owners with valid cpl/ccw permits being able to go into a restaurant that serves alcohol and get a meal minus the alcohol! Some states allow this and others do not so lesson number one know your local laws and to stay out of trouble adhere to them! Fools put themselves in poor positions. Whether you are an LEO or a private citizen if you are mixing alcohol and carrying a firearm then you probably will get what you deserve in the end!

 

[MJS]

I'd say it'd depend on the rules of the dept. The State Police in CT are technically on duty 24/7, one of the reasons being, that they take home their cars and can use them for personal use, however, I believe they're still supposed to take any action/enforcement even if off duty, thus many carry.

As for the number of shots fired...well, I'll defer to the LEOs here, but AFAIK, its center mass, and shoot until the thread is no more. That being said, the entire clip doesnt sound excessive. Of course, I doubt every LEO is an expert marksman, therefore, I'd also say its not unreasonable, circumstances depending, to have multiple officers fire numerous shots. To the average joe, of course that's going to sound excessive. But, does the average Joe know about the day to day duties of a LEO or are they just talking out of their ***? 9 times out of 10, I'd say its the latter. LOL.

Should they carry in a bar? I'll refer back to dept. policy and overall good old fashion common sense.

 

[Archangel M]

There is the issue of "drinking while carrying" VS "being drunk while carrying". You can still legally drive with a BAC below your states legal limit. The issue here is one of common sense and good judgement rather than a black n white/right n wrong issue of carrying inside a drinking establishment. If there is justification to shoot there is justification regardless of your BAC. Your intoxication could/probably will cause you difficulties in the aftermath, but better to be alive.

The bottom line, dont carry if you plan on "whooping it up", be the designated driver, or avoid trouble spots like bars frequented by drunk rowdies.

 

[billc]

Good post. Interesting thoughts.

 

[seasoned]

Should Off Duty Officers Carry Guns In Bars? Yes, as long as they don't drink alcohol. Designated drivers don't drink, they drive people around that do. If an off duty cop is out with the guys, and kicking back a few, leave the fire power at home. If he is out with the family and having a drink or two while carrying, he is showing a bad example to the kids. Appearance of impropriety, comes to mind.