Should getting a Black Belt be this stressful?

[miguksaram]

Im inclined to approve. Some Parents have this nasty habit of 'getting involved'.

I was on the testing board when my youngest was testing for his Jr. BB. I was told specifically that I was not allowed to test the Jr's. I was only allowed to test the adults. It was one of the hardest/proudest things for me to see as he went through this test. Even as someone who has been through the test, I wanted to "rescue" him from it. So I can only imagine how a non-martial arts parent would react to seeing what we do.

 

[cay22]

Will he definitely quit? Our little ones can surprise us a lot sometimes. I will say this. I am someone who likes to give stressful tests myself, and as such I make it a point to understand how far I can push some physically and mentally before they breakdown. Hopefully, your child's instructor has a similar measure of him or perhaps the test is in the anticipation and worry in of itself.

I do not believe he will quit. I have talked with him about the fact it will be difficult and that is because his BB will be earned not given. He has said he will not quit. (Of course no one knows until they get in there but it is not like he is sitting here saying he is not sure he can do it) It is the instructor who seems like he is confident he will quit. (and really that is all up to the instructor) I do not mind if they push him to a breaking point, I do not mind if it is hard on him. I just do not want to send him in there with a target on his back with an instructor who is going to try and get him to quit. This is so unlike the people we have known for 3+years. I just feel like they pulled a switch on us. We started at this school because of how they treated the kids and how good they were with them. I guess I just assumed they would be like that at Review Board too. Thanks for all your incite, this thread has been very informative.

 

[Instructor]

They are the same people, the circumstance has changed. My teacher is one of the most warm loving people I know. During my BB test he had the best poker face I have ever seen. Stone cold, like a different guy. It's a big deal and requires both student AND teacher to endure an ordeal and make tough choices. Teachers generally don't like watching suffering any more than anybody else, especially since they too have done that test before. But it must be done.

I think you should let him test, for better or worse. It's better than the unknown. Who knows what the future holds, this may be his one big chance.

 

[Manny]

Because of all the things we ahve exposed here in thsi post is why I think no one below at least 15 would be a black belt or a poom belt, boys and girls below 15 and even 18 are not emotionaly mature to do a black belt test and to obtain a black belt, yes I know there are a very few exepcions but in general children are not mature enough.

Manny

 

[Instructor]

Manny I share your view but that isn't what this thread is about so lets stay on track.

 

[Twin Fist]

and the first time he gets sued he will be out of business.

and he will deserve it for doing something, well intentioned or not, that is out right STUPID in this day and age

Yes, we would refuse. The bottom line is that it distracts the student and we explain that to the parent. These kids need to be 100% focused on the test. What purpose would it hold for them sit there for 4-5 hours? We cannot have the parents coming in and out at their convenience, they cannot take pictures, and there is NO outside discussions allowed, even from those present at the test. Even during their water breaks they do not converse.

Regardless if you feel it is wrong or not, it is how Sensei Sharkey has ran his black belt tests since he has had them some 30+ years ago and will continue to do so.

 

[miguksaram]

A school policy of how they test their Jr.'s for bb is not really a concern of mine. People do not agree with our method and that is fine. We turn out great Jr. BB's and so what we have going seems to work. I do not agree on the fluffy run forms and blow sunshine up the asses of the kids while they perform techniques during a test, but hey, some do and works for them and so more power to them.

The only issue I have with what is going on is the fact that she paid for private lessons just to be told that he may not be able to test after all of time and money put into preparing for the test. That should have been determined by the instructor from the very beginning. It was already expressed by the parent that they were willing to wait one more year at the very beginning of all this.

 

[miguksaram]

and the first time he gets sued he will be out of business.

and he will deserve it for doing something, well intentioned or not, that is out right STUPID in this day and age

Thank you for your concern.

 

[Twin Fist]

we live in a lawsuite happy nation, sad but true. And so sorry, but as a parent, i would walk the hell out the first time some one told me i couldnt be there with my CHILD during anything. too many molester karate instructors to EVER allow that. I am NOT casting any accusation on Mr Sharkey, or you. I am just totally opposed to not allowing parents to be with thier kids.


If you are doing things that parents try to stop, that is something you should think about tho.

 

[lifespantkd]

I spoke with the owner last night and he said he is physically and mentally ready just not emotionally ready. He says he will probably cry and quit during review board and if he quits he is done. Is it common to be so hard on the kids that they quit during review board? He says he has even had an adult quit! It sounds more like a college hazing to me? Is this the norm for a BB test? If my son does not go up he will be crushed and humiliated. I feel that he is the same kid he was in Nov. and if they thought he was ready then he should be ready now. If they would have said then he was not ready I was fine with that but telling a child 4 days before review board after they have worked their rear off to get ready is just not right. I have gotten out of some of the parents whose kids went up at a young age that their kids said it was the worst day of their lives and came home crying. Is this really what getting your black belt is supposed to be about? He has worked so hard I hate to just pull him out and be done. This is the one thing we have found so far that he really enjoys.

I guess my question is, is this the norm and should the BB test be so awful that it is the worst day of a kids life? If so we may just have to be done with the arts. Just FYI- I also do TKD but started after my son so he is up for BB before me.

Thanks for any input you may have.
-Kate

I respect your thoughtful consideration of the issues involved in the decision that you are facing on behalf of your son.

No, this is not how all schools conduct black belt tests, whether the tests are for adults or for children. So, this approach is not an inherent part of Taekwondo or of the martial arts. It is just an inherent part of *some* schools' approach to testing. As you have seen already from the replies that you have received, people's opinions vary quite a bit based on what their experience has been, their understanding of children, what they believe a black belt and a black belt test mean, their understanding of family dynamics, their understanding of teaching and assessment, and so on. The bottom line is that you know your son better than anyone else. You also know your own values better than anyone else. And you also know the situation at your school better than anyone on this board. Your son will learn lessons from this experience, no matter what choice you make, including but not limited to:

1. What it is like to face a challenge (i.e., the test) that goes well.
2. What it is like to face a challenge that goes poorly.
3. What it is like to do a self-evaluation and decide that he's not ready for the challenge, but is willing to keep training for another year.
4. What it is like to do a self-evaluation and decide that he's not ready for the challenge and just quit completely.
5. What it is like for his parents to decide that his school's approach does not match his family's standards for understanding of and responsiveness to a child's needs, valuing of parental supervision, trust of parental wisdom, trust in and collaboration with parents, and so on.
6. How to vote with your feet (i.e., standing up for what you believe in by taking your business elsewhere). Note that this is most definitely not the same thing as running away from a problem or protecting your son from a challenge he could/should have faced. You could even research the other schools in the area, including talking with them about what you are experiencing at your current school. Although change can be hard, and may not be needed, knowing what your options are could help you feel more confident about the decision you ultimately make.
7. How to process a difficult decision (e.g., listening to your gut, as well as rationally exploring options, values, needs, pros and cons).
8. What it's like to have to make a decision when you may never really know if it was the right one or not.

Best wishes to you and your son,

Cynthia

 

[Instructor]

Cynthia that is possibly the best reply I have seen on here.

 

[miguksaram]

we live in a lawsuite happy nation, sad but true. And so sorry, but as a parent, i would walk the hell out the first time some one told me i couldnt be there with my CHILD during anything.

And we would wish you well on your journey.

too many molester karate instructors to EVER allow that. I am NOT casting any accusation on Mr Sharkey, or you. I am just totally opposed to not allowing parents to be with thier kids.

I understand your concern. Keep in mind that the kids are tested at the same time as the adults. Kids will be in back of the floor area and adults in the front of the floor area. On average there are usually 10-20 adult black belts on the board to do the test. It is not one person with one child at a testing. Not too mention, as I said, a group of other adults present taking the test. We have never done nor do I think we will we ever do a black belt testing for one person.

If you are doing things that parents try to stop, that is something you should think about tho.

They do it out of parental instinct. As I said, watching my own son going through it, it was hard not to step in and make sure he is ok or to tell the person testing him to cut him some slack. Even at the break I could not go over and talk to him and check up on him. So to a parent who has never trained or never trained at our school they will not understand what we are doing. Regardless, we are not mentally or physically abusing them. We are, however, pushing them to and beyond their limits.

It is hard to explain to anyone outside of our school because, well you are not part of the school and so do not know what they are put through in their training. Parents get to watch all their tests up to their highest guep/kyu rank. We are hard on them for those tests as well. So by the time the kids are ready for a Jr. BB test, they parents have a good idea of what they are in for.

 

[jks9199]

any school that wont let parents be present?

quit

run away

never look back

any instructor that is so stupid as to not allow parents to watch thier tests is too stupid to be allowed around children

i would NEVER be alone with a child. I would NEVER tell parents they cant watch.

NEVER

run.
run away

This is where I have concerns as well. A black belt test should be challenging, hard and even stressful or what does it mean? And it should mark a transition in training just like various school diplomas mark changes in expectations for students. And I can deal with some secrecy about the test process. But the level of secrecy here bothers me. What goes on that's got to be so covert?

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk

 

[Touch Of Death]

"There is no right way to do a wrong thing." Tony George

 

[Steve]

Yes, we would refuse. The bottom line is that it distracts the student and we explain that to the parent. These kids need to be 100% focused on the test. What purpose would it hold for them sit there for 4-5 hours? We cannot have the parents coming in and out at their convenience, they cannot take pictures, and there is NO outside discussions allowed, even from those present at the test. Even during their water breaks they do not converse.

Regardless if you feel it is wrong or not, it is how Sensei Sharkey has ran his black belt tests since he has had them some 30+ years ago and will continue to do so.

I want to be very clear. You can run your business as you wish. I'd NEVER allow my child to be a part of any organization that is secretive and cultish in this way. I cannot imagine any responsible parent doing so. l wonder at the complete lack of judgement on the part of the organization AND the parents. Frankly, this seems so self-apparent to me that I am literally having trouble processing the utter absence of common sense.

We're not talking about warriors or samurai or ninja or soldiers. We're talking about children. Pushing children and motivating them is one thing. "Testing" them in such a way that even someone who has been a part of the organization admits that their instincts were to "rescue" the children is so bizarre, it is literally boggling my mind.

And certainly, in the case of the OP, where such a testing represents a radical departure from any experience the child has had in the school previously is irresponsible and reckless. If you're going to test a child under harsh and grueling conditions, I'm not against it, provided you have adequately prepared the child both physically and mentally for the test, AND you are partnering at EVERY step with the parents. The parents are NOT impediments, if you're doing it correctly and getting their support.

Bottom line, I've managed to raise two strong, independent, thoughtful, intelligent teenagers by trusting my instincts. I have a toddler who is respectful, polite, fearless and joyful. My instincts have served me well. My instincts tell me that your approach is not in the best interest of the kids, and this secretive, cultish approach to martial arts is EXACTLY the problem I have with these kinds of "traditional" schools.

 

[Steve]

This is also an interesting thread in light of the disabilities thread from last week. Punuui and several others compared a TKD black belt to a high school diploma and were very clear that they believed that it should be attainable by everyone.

The question I have is why TKD seems to have no middle ground. If it exists, where is it? You guys seem to go from one extreme to another. A black belt is either a low level rite of passage, or it is worth risking a child's emotional, physical and mental wellness in its pursuit and parents are barred from witnessing the testing for fear that they will feel compelled to rescue their child. What the hell? Seriously. What the hell?

 

[Buka]

Should a black belt test be stressful? Damn right it should be.

But not for eight year olds. I'm sorry, I know you set parameters on this thread about not wanting to hear "he's too young". But he's too young. Hate me all you want, it doesn't change the fact. Frankly, it's dicracefull.

 

[miguksaram]

I want to be very clear. You can run your business as you wish. I'd NEVER allow my child to be a part of any organization that is secretive and cultish in this way.

What is cultish about it? We are in a closed off environment is all. As I mentioned before the parents can sit and watch all their tests up to their highest rank. We do not do sacrifices or chant or pay homage to any great power. We are not secretive. The parents are told what is going on and why they are not allowed to be there.

I cannot imagine any responsible parent doing so. l wonder at the complete lack of judgement on the part of the organization AND the parents. Frankly, this seems so self-apparent to me that I am literally having trouble processing the utter absence of common sense.

So now you are questioning my parental skills and common sense as well as my methodology of testing...any other insults you would like to hurl over my way why you are at it?

We're not talking about warriors or samurai or ninja or soldiers. We're talking about children. Pushing children and motivating them is one thing. "Testing" them in such a way that even someone who has been a part of the organization admits that their instincts were to "rescue" the children is so bizarre, it is literally boggling my mind.

Again, as I already said, it is hard to explain to someone who is not part of our school or its culture. If you were, you would understand, since you are not, please do not question my parental skills, common sense or what we do without first training with us.

And certainly, in the case of the OP, where such a testing represents a radical departure from any experience the child has had in the school previously is irresponsible and reckless. If you're going to test a child under harsh and grueling conditions, I'm not against it, provided you have adequately prepared the child both physically and mentally for the test, AND you are partnering at EVERY step with the parents. The parents are NOT impediments, if you're doing it correctly and getting their support.

Again, if you bothered to read my other postings you would see that the parents see how we test our kids through out their duration of learning from us. They know exactly what their kids will be getting into once they are about to take a Jr. BB test. They know why we do not allow them to stick around for that particular test. Clear and simple...they are not without common sense nor are we behaving in a cultist manner.

Bottom line, I've managed to raise two strong, independent, thoughtful, intelligent teenagers by trusting my instincts. I have a toddler who is respectful, polite, fearless and joyful. My instincts have served me well. My instincts tell me that your approach is not in the best interest of the kids, and this secretive, cultish approach to martial arts is EXACTLY the problem I have with these kinds of "traditional" schools.

Congrats on your instincts...guess what, I have three great kids (23 year old girl, 17 year old boy, and 15 year old boy). They are strong independent thinkers as well. I have trusted my instincts as well and it has served me as well. My boys have both been through this test and are better for it. Nothing they face in school has yet to put the type of pressure on them like their JR. BB test. Because of that, they don't stress out on such little things because they know they can handle it.
What we do, which again you really have no clue about, outside of some words typed here, may not be in the best interest of YOUR kids, but do not state that it is not in the best interest or all kids. We have raised several world champions and a slew of national champions, we have black belts that have gone on to be pastors and run their own charities to help feed those in need. We have Jr. BB's who travel the world doing seminars and entertaining the US Troops AND still keep a 3.0 GPA in their school. You may not agree with how we run our BB test. Fine...don't train with us, but do not begin to sit there and insult our the parents who do allow their kids to train here and do not accuse of of cultist like behavior just because you don't know or understand how we function.

 

[elder999]

Should a black belt test be stressful? Damn right it should be.

But not for eight year olds. I'm sorry, I know you set parameters on this thread about not wanting to hear "he's too young". But he's too young. Hate me all you want, it doesn't change the fact. Frankly, it's dicracefull.

Not necessarily disgraceful-it should be the exception, though, and not the rule:

BTW-if your eight year old "black belt" isn't doing it like these guys, he probably isn't "ready," or a black belt.

 

[terryl965]

Well first off if your son is not strong enough mentally to take rejection than he should not be testing for his BB. Sorry but that is simply the truth, dis-appointment is part of life. I am pretty sure when he first strated riding his bike he fell a couple of time but he kept getting back on to try again and finally it came together. We learn more by failing than by winning. Some of my best BB are those that had to comeback and test again so they did not fail but rather they grew, thisis what needs to be told to your son.

My second concern is a close venue, my test has portion that we ask the parents to please leave not because we do not want them but simply so the student can focus on there techniques. But when parents are told they cannot be there, I have a problem with it. We kindly ask for the parents to get up but if they insist we let them stay with them knowing if the child is looking at them and getting any help they will most likely fail. That always helps them but they just go into my office and can watch from my two way mirror so they really can see them the child just cannot see the parent but we also have that for spouses as well.

If I was you I would not let him test for another year just so he can grow emotionally more, but that is simply up to you and his instructor.