Respect

[Kacey]

There is a post in the Kenpo forum titled Manners or Kenpo?, which I think applies to a wider group of MA's than just Kenpo.

There are quite a few discussions that arise about the level of respect/formal courtesy that occurs in many MA settings. The difference is, I think, earning respect so that people want to address you respectfully, and demanding respect, and deriding those who disagree.

I respect my sahbum greatly, and I address him with formal courtesy as a measure of that respect. The location we are in (in or out of the dojang) does not change how much I respect him - after all, I respect his knowledge and dedication, not a piece of clothing he can remove at will - and therefore it does not change how I address him. It is his preference that formal address be used in the dojang because he feels that formal address - like wearing doboks - helps to set aside the time in the dojang in a way the aids in concentration. Because I respect him, I also respect his choice to use formal address - and therefore I use it too.

I can say the same thing for many of the other martial artists that I have been privileged to share training time with - both juniors and seniors - and therefore I address them respectfully as well. In non-TKD settings, the definition of "respect", and therefore of "courtesy" (in terms of respectful address) is different, and the format of address may also change - but the respect remains.

For practitioners in other arts, where the rules of behavior are different, the demonstration of respect may not include formal address - but it generally includes listening quietly, asking meaningful questions, trying hard to perform as the instructor asks, and similar actions. The key to demonstrating respect for one's instructor is in how much effort you put into following your instructor's directives; the means of demonstrating that effort will vary from student to student, instructor to instructor, organization to organization, and art to art.

Then there are those who demand respect based solely on a piece of cloth, who expect that rank and rank alone are deserving of respect, regardless of the person's actual knowledge, behavior, and so on, who don't understand why the guidelines for demonstrating respect are what they are, or who have shown, by their actions, that they do not respect those around them, who are, for whatever reason, not deserving of respect. These are often (but not always) the people that others complain about, the ones who throw their rank around and expect others to kowtow to them - the bullies, who gained rank for the purpose of using it against others, or as a means of obtaining power or control.

For those people, I will show the forms of respect out of respect for the dojang, in acknowledgment of the time they have spent reaching that rank, and to maximize my own learningwhile not disrupting the learning of those around me - but I see definite difference between following rules to lubricate social interactions (e.g. following the forms of respect) and demonstrating actual respect for a person, and there are people I will call Mr. or Mrs., sir or ma'am, solely because of the rules of behavior where I happen to be - and others who I will address formally because of the respect I hold for them, who I will call Mr. or Mrs., sir or ma'am, regardless of the situation, because they have earned that level of respect from me.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well said Kacey!

I believe there are levels of respect. Polite general respect should apply to all people. It's those little things, saying please, and thank you. Holding a door or carrying a bag, or being considerate. There is a deeper respect, one given to ones parents, or close friends, or influential people, like teachers.

Sometimes, you can dislike the person, but still be respectful.

Respect even if just at the polite level, should be given, until such time as it shouldn't. A cop taking down a criminal who just tried to kill him....I think we can excuse him not saying "please" there, y'know?

 

[Hawke]

Respect by upbringing, culture, and tradition. We are taught to respect others by our parents, some cultures grow up learning respect from society, and others learn respect through the military or the martial art.

There's an old tale about an old man attending the Olympics and could not find room to sit down. The Greeks laughed and teased the old man. The old man kept moving around looking for a sit. When he came upon the Spartans they got up and moved over to make room for the elder. The Greeks applauded the actions of the Spartans.

An "ex-marine" will still be saluted according to my military friends.

People that have spent time in Asia (China, Japan, Korea) will see many levels of honor and respect.

Certain MA have an emphasis on respect (TMA, FMA, Silat, etc).

Honor and respect are not just limited to the martial arts, but other arts as well. A ballet dancer, an opera singer, a person in the entertainment industry, [SIZE=-1]and other people that have dedicated their lives to the arts.

There are people we respect like [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Nobel Laureates, doctors, religious leaders, and elders.

Some people may demand respect, but those that are humble and earned their respect carries more weight with me.


[/SIZE]

 

[MJS]

Fantastic post Kacey! Hawke made a great point in his opening paragraph. Speaking for myself, I was taught about respect from my family. I do my best to be respectful to everyone. I don't demand respect. However, I think its a 2 way street. If someone can't be respectful to me, I don't go out of my way to return the favor. IMHO, how you carry and conduct yourself will determine whether or not you get respect.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

There is a post in the Kenpo forum titled Manners or Kenpo?, which I think applies to a wider group of MA's than just Kenpo.

There are quite a few discussions that arise about the level of respect/formal courtesy that occurs in many MA settings. The difference is, I think, earning respect so that people want to address you respectfully, and demanding respect, and deriding those who disagree.

I respect my sahbum greatly, and I address him with formal courtesy as a measure of that respect. The location we are in (in or out of the dojang) does not change how much I respect him - after all, I respect his knowledge and dedication, not a piece of clothing he can remove at will - and therefore it does not change how I address him. It is his preference that formal address be used in the dojang because he feels that formal address - like wearing doboks - helps to set aside the time in the dojang in a way the aids in concentration. Because I respect him, I also respect his choice to use formal address - and therefore I use it too.

I can say the same thing for many of the other martial artists that I have been privileged to share training time with - both juniors and seniors - and therefore I address them respectfully as well. In non-TKD settings, the definition of "respect", and therefore of "courtesy" (in terms of respectful address) is different, and the format of address may also change - but the respect remains.

For practitioners in other arts, where the rules of behavior are different, the demonstration of respect may not include formal address - but it generally includes listening quietly, asking meaningful questions, trying hard to perform as the instructor asks, and similar actions. The key to demonstrating respect for one's instructor is in how much effort you put into following your instructor's directives; the means of demonstrating that effort will vary from student to student, instructor to instructor, organization to organization, and art to art.

Then there are those who demand respect based solely on a piece of cloth, who expect that rank and rank alone are deserving of respect, regardless of the person's actual knowledge, behavior, and so on, who don't understand why the guidelines for demonstrating respect are what they are, or who have shown, by their actions, that they do not respect those around them, who are, for whatever reason, not deserving of respect. These are often (but not always) the people that others complain about, the ones who throw their rank around and expect others to kowtow to them - the bullies, who gained rank for the purpose of using it against others, or as a means of obtaining power or control.

For those people, I will show the forms of respect out of respect for the dojang, in acknowledgment of the time they have spent reaching that rank, and to maximize my own learningwhile not disrupting the learning of those around me - but I see definite difference between following rules to lubricate social interactions (e.g. following the forms of respect) and demonstrating actual respect for a person, and there are people I will call Mr. or Mrs., sir or ma'am, solely because of the rules of behavior where I happen to be - and others who I will address formally because of the respect I hold for them, who I will call Mr. or Mrs., sir or ma'am, regardless of the situation, because they have earned that level of respect from me.

While hanging with the late GM Remy Presas on one of his visits to our area. He asked me to stop calling me Grandmaster when we were at restaurants and other places. He did not want to be mistaken for Grandfather.

While I am on the matts it is always simple respect to those teaching and to those learning. Off the matts I prefer to be called "Rich". If they are children they can call me Mr. Rich or Uncle Rich. Adults can also use the term Uncle as well if they wish. Personally I like Rich off the matts.

I have been around those who required or demended certain forms of address. I have been polite and sometimes overly polite to make my point.

Good Points Kacey

 

[exile]

Good Points Kacey

Seconded, heartily!

I think, in our bones, those of us who've been reared in the Euroamerican cultural domain have the same sense: yes, we will show you the forms of deference if doing so is part of the politeness ethic in some situation or other, but genuine respect and esteem.... that, you have to earn.

There are cultures which differ on this point profoundly; the whole individual psychology of respect is different. Similar points can be made with respect to the notion of truth, as Bruce Clayton has argued very persuasively in his book Shotokan's Secret. The fact is, those of us who were socialized in Euroamerican cultures do not automatically confer genuine respect, let alone veneration, on those who outrank us. I think Kacey's post hits the dead center of the bullseye on this point.

 

[Drac]

A cop taking down a criminal who just tried to kill him....I think we can excuse him not saying "please" there, y'know?

Thank you Bob..

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Manners and respect are good things in todays world, as much is lacking these days.

The roots of all this respect is simple, dangerous people should get along, or bad things happen.

On the mats I call my Sensei, Sensei, off he is Dave, I tell those under my rank the same, Sensei or Sempai will do on the mats, off I am Dylan and no differnt from you.

 

[jks9199]

A cop taking down a criminal who just tried to kill him....I think we can excuse him not saying "please" there, y'know?

Thank you Bob..

Why, I always say pretty please, let me arrest you...

OK... so the words that I'm translating into "pretty please" won't pass the obscenity filter.

In reality -- I start by being polite and respectful to everyone. It's just easier. If they respond to that -- then we stay respectful. If I need to change my words and my treatment of them, then I do.

With regards to martial arts -- I'm "Jim" to most of my students. Occasionally "Mr." Once in a while, "Master..." I'm actually uncomfortable with students all stopping what they're doing to bow to me as I walk in... I always try to be courteous and respectful towards people from another system; after all, that quiet little guy over there... I don't know how long he's been training,or what he's ranked. If I'm in your house... I'll call you what you tell me to.

Outside of class, off the mats... Don't bow to me, don't be silly. Be polite and respectful, like I expect you to be towards everyone. If you know me well enough... you can even call me names.

 

[Last Fearner]

Kacey has made some excellent points, and described the purpose, reasons, and levels of respect very well!

The location we are in (in or out of the dojang) does not change how much I respect him - after all, I respect his knowledge and dedication, not a piece of clothing he can remove at will - and therefore it does not change how I address him.

Excellent comment! No reason it should change, unless the instructor indicates a preference for such a change.

I also respect his choice to use formal address - and therefore I use it too.

I agree, Kacey! If I respect the person, then I respect their preference for using formal address to seniors, even if I don't fully understand it, agree with it, or would choose the same if I were in their position (of course, one never knows till they reach that position - their views might change).

and there are people I will call Mr. or Mrs., sir or ma'am, solely because of the rules of behavior where I happen to be - and others who I will address formally because of the respect I hold for them, who I will call Mr. or Mrs., sir or ma'am, regardless of the situation, because they have earned that level of respect from me.

Another great point! "Courtesy" is a form of displaying respect by showing good manners, polite attitude and appropriate actions in any particular setting. You can be polite to people whom you do not completely respect because you feel it is the right thing to do at that time, but you can also stand up to those in a position of authority if their character or actions do not warrant even the slightest display of courtesy.

The only terminology that I personally disagree with pursuant to "respect," is the notion of "earning" it. To me, this negates the true essence of respect (although I know many people are accustomed to phrasing it this way). I view respect as something you have within yourself which increases or decreases based on your own perception of the value of something, some deed, or someone.

I believe that love is the emotional appreciation of the value of someone, whereas respect is the intellectual appreciation of their value.

I truly do not believe that we "give" our respect to anyone, but we display it, or show it in our attitudes (pleasantness), behavior (cooperation), and words (complimentary). To me, the idea of "earning" respect is like earning a paycheck. If I do the work, someone owes me the money. I do not believe anyone "owes" anyone respect, no matter what you do to "deserve" it. That is their choice to "feel" respect within themselves, and their choice to display it or not.

As to respect in the Dojang and out, I believe that my responsibilities as an instructor of something so unique as the Martial Art entails that I "perform" in the role of the disciplinarian, the antagonist, the supportive role model, and the teacher, etc., etc. Some students will understand respect, discipline, courtesy, and good manners before they ever walk in the classroom (from family, childhood, or other influences). Others must be molded like a piece of clay, forged like a sword, and eventually polished like a rare gem. Just like a Drill Instructor in the military, all recruits get the same harsh treatment, whether they need it or not. Those who can not handle it, will have their weaknesses exposed, and that is where I begin to work on rebuilding, and strengthening them.

I require that students display respect to any Black Belt or Instructor inside the dojang as well as out. I can not force them to respect me, nor do I demand that they respect me - - I hope that my actions as an honorable individual in my daily life, and a dedicated instructor who truly cares about the quality of their training will be worthy of their respect, but it is their choice if they "feel" that respect or not. However, it is still my job to teach them to display it in all settings because true respect is for the person and the quality of their character - - not simply because of where we are, or what we are wearing.

In my opinion, students who are permitted to "drop the formalities entirely" when not in the dojang are susceptible to learning that respect is tied to a piece of clothing, and displays of respect are associated with a specific setting. I don't insist upon displays of respect for my own ego, I personally don't care, but I require it because I tend to find that those who object to them are those who do not truly understand what respect is. Then it is my pleasure to teach them!

Just my humble opinion. :asian:
CM DJ. Eisenhart

 

[whitetiger2001]

My school used first names foir anyone under the rank of master and than it was a given but despite the informality, there was alway respect between students and teachers. I feel that a teacher should have the same level of respect for the student as the student has for the teacher. It is after all, why the teacher is there. We hear a lot about the respect given to the teacher whatever his style uses for a title. But there has to be respect flowing the other way and this is too often not the case. Without the students, the teacher would have no purpose.

As teachers, we have to remember that our students are on the same journey that we are and that they are haveing many of the same difficulties that we did. But because they chose this path and us as their guides, they deserve as much respect if not more so.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have been in a few schools where anyone higher in rank was called Mr. or Miss .
My instructor was call sensei by all students past and present no matter where they saw him. Present students also bowed to him no matter where they saw him, and he bowed to them.
Myslef i am simple called sir , Mr. bedell, or Leopard (which I prefer) by my students. After class I am sheldon to all

 

[Carol]

In a formal lesson, I prefer to address my instructors differently than I would outside. I have a difficult time calling someone by their first name in class (although one of my instructors prefers it).

I compartmentalize the relationship very heavily. The person that had the huge cookout, or the person that invited me to dinner with their family...or the person that lent me a friendly ear when I needed someone to talk to...that's the person I call by their first name. I train where I do because my instructors treat me as if I am family, and...I need that in my life right now.

But when I am in class, my instructor is not my friend. Training kicks up a wide range of emotions inside me. Sometimes the emotions are positive... or at least constructive. However, if what is going through my head is very negative, I won't address my instructor as anything except "sir" or "ma'am" until my mindset improves. I don't even want to associate their title with whatever darkness it is that I'm feeling.

The dissociation does more than help me focus, it allows me to take direction, accept criticism, and fight through frustration without taking anything personally. I need that to be able to make progress.

 

[LawDog]

Respect,
will show the way that you view another person, in a positive or negitive, it shows more on how you view yourself.
:ultracool :disgust:

 

[Sensei Payne]

Respect is not easy to earn from me...

I respect people as human beings and I respect there rights etc etc...

But True respect and understanding for someone based on there actions during the time I know them is how respect is earned from me...

I also respect those to whom I respect...respects....(Tounge Twister)

Such as previous instructors..family..etc etc

Respect is something earned...not something that is given out like a DVD in a Wal-Mart clearance bin.

 

[Balrog]

There is a post in the Kenpo forum titled Manners or Kenpo?, which I think applies to a wider group of MA's than just Kenpo.

There are quite a few discussions that arise about the level of respect/formal courtesy that occurs in many MA settings. The difference is, I think, earning respect so that people want to address you respectfully, and demanding respect, and deriding those who disagree.

...snip...

Good points.

IMNSHO, the entire orientation of our martial arts training should be based on courtesy and respect. I respect my new students because they are exhibiting the desire to try and learn something new. However, I don't demand that they respect me just 'cuz I da Black Belt; I earn their respect by leadership through example. I do require all of my students to show courtesy and respect to every other student and to the staff, and vice versa, simply because that makes for a level playing field and a nicer environment to train in.