Question on defense against grappling in street fight

[dunc]

Yeah. It is the more moral option.

It is also easier to train. If I do huge high aptitude throws. How many rounds can I spar?

Agree. I think it's a better strategy against trained people too (as a general rule)

 

[skribs136 156]

To be honest there are only a few take downs that fall into that category: Tani Otoshi and Kani Bashami. Jumping guard also but that's not really a take down
None of those are banned in BJJ, it's just that they have a high injury rate so many academies don't allow beginners to train them

Pretty much everything you see in Judo and wrestling are fair game in BJJ - albeit with adaptions/exclusions for the ruleset

There's more. I nearly tore my knee doing an inside trip. There's another technique we've been told to be careful, which is similar to a Tani Otoshi (I had to google it, don't know the Japanese terms) but from the rear body lock.

 

[dunc]

There's more. I nearly tore my knee doing an inside trip. There's another technique we've been told to be careful, which is similar to a Tani Otoshi (I had to google it, don't know the Japanese terms) but from the rear body lock.

I think generally speaking there is a higher injury risk with sparring takedowns vs ground work, particularly at the lower belts

That and a limitations of mat space is why many academies’ recreational classes (not competition classes) start sparring on the knees

Note: In my experience academies that start sparring kneeling down or sitting still train takedowns and spar them when space allows
I train at a famous academy that falls into this category and I don’t know any BJJ coloured belts who don’t have a few takedowns that they do competently

 

[Haruhiko]

I blame the Gracies for this thread.

 

[wab25]

Sorry guys... I did not realize it was so insulting to ask about your ukemi practice in your respective classes.....

I will share what we do in this regard anyway.

Danzan Ryu is known for having very good rolls and falls. That is because we practice them a lot. A normal class runs 2 hours.... the first 35-45 minutes are rolling and falling drills. We will do:

1. Forward rolls
2. Back rolls
3. Face falls (4 different drills for different heights and different experience levels)
4. Back falls (5 different drills for different experience levels)
5. Side fall landing drill
6. Side falls (many different drills here focusing on different aspects, usually though we start from a handstand)
7. Sutemi (front flip into a side fall position)

These are done every class. The focus is on landing on concrete. Yes, we practice on mats, but all my instructors insist on us landing in the correct position for concrete, even though we are on a mat... I try to do the same with my students.

This does have a draw back, many prospective students are not willing to do that much ukemi practice every class, they want to get to the throws, choking, locking and submitting parts. But, we are big on learning to take the falls before we learn to do the throw that produces the need for that fall.

When we get to doing the throws and takedowns, the first emphasis is on taking care of uke. Doing the throw such that uke can fall correctly and being aware of uke so that you can help uke into the correct fall during the technique. Many people don't like this idea either, as they feel you are being nice to uke and becoming too cooperative. Well, you need an uke to practice the throws... and if you have enough control to throw uke safely, you have enough control to change a few things and make the throw catastrophic for uke.... but you need the control and awareness of uke to make that happen. This control and awareness are gained by throwing uke in a controlled and safe manner.

Another thing that we consider is that statistically.... being able to take a fall on concrete will save you a lot more than any type of punch, kick, take down or submission. I know a small number of people, outside of law enforcement and military, that have used what they learned on another person outside of training or competition.... on the street if you will..... but almost every single person I know that trains Danzan Ryu has taken falls outside of class and used the rolls or falls we teach to be able to laugh it off and be embarrassed about it... but all could go about their day afterwards.

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

This got me thinking.... how often are the rolls and falls practiced? And to what degree? Learning to take the falls correctly makes the practice of takedowns and throws much safer.

I am curious here @skribs and @Tony Dismukes
What kind of ukemi (rolling / falling drills) do you practice in your classes?
How often do you practice ukemi?

Usually just a couple of minutes of basic breakfalls as part of the warmups at the beginning of each class. Honestly I probably should devote a little more time to it, but I'm happy to say that we haven't had any significant injuries from takedowns in my class. Probably because I tend to focus on the safer, lower-amplitude takedowns. But thanks for the reminder. I might start spending some more time on the different variations of ukemi.

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

In my gym, we've noticed a pattern with take-downs from the back to the back. So the rule at my gym is if you get behind someone, you can only take them down to the front.

I think the main culprit here is a particular version of Tani Otoshi that is easy for people to screw up and end up sitting on the side of their partner's knee. I teach a version which is completely safe and has zero chance of damaging anyone's knees. I try to watch carefully during takedown rounds and stop students if I see them coming close to a dangerous leg position and show them the risks and how to do things safely.

 

[marvin8]

Sorry guys... I did not realize it was so insulting to ask about your ukemi practice in your respective classes.....

I will share what we do in this regard anyway.

Danzan Ryu is known for having very good rolls and falls. That is because we practice them a lot. A normal class runs 2 hours.... the first 35-45 minutes are rolling and falling drills. We will do:

1. Forward rolls
2. Back rolls
3. Face falls (4 different drills for different heights and different experience levels)
4. Back falls (5 different drills for different experience levels)
5. Side fall landing drill
6. Side falls (many different drills here focusing on different aspects, usually though we start from a handstand)
7. Sutemi (front flip into a side fall position)

These are done every class. The focus is on landing on concrete. Yes, we practice on mats, but all my instructors insist on us landing in the correct position for concrete, even though we are on a mat... I try to do the same with my students...

Another thing that we consider is that statistically.... being able to take a fall on concrete will save you a lot more than any type of punch, kick, take down or submission. I know a small number of people, outside of law enforcement and military, that have used what they learned on another person outside of training or competition.... on the street if you will..... but almost every single person I know that trains Danzan Ryu has taken falls outside of class and used the rolls or falls we teach to be able to laugh it off and be embarrassed about it... but all could go about their day afterwards.

Excerpts from "The Most Valuable BJJ Technique Every Person Should Know:"

In all seriousness, the breakfall is the most important and applicable move in all aspects of life. Slip and fall in the kitchen? Hopefully you learned to breakfall. Is it an icy winter and while you’re shoveling snow you slip? Breakfall. Walking a trail and trip? Tuck, roll and breakfall. This technique applies to other martial arts. If you are swept in muay thai and post on your glove, you’re looking at a broken wrist or arm.

One out of five falls causes a serious injury such as broken bones (wrist, arms, and hips) and head injury.

These injuries can all be avoided by proper technique, the breakfall. If executed correctly, you can avoid broken wrists and arms by not posting which is the natural human reaction. Tucking the head can greatly reduce the chance of head injury and falling on your body in the right way can also reduce hip injury....

 

[dunc]

Sorry guys... I did not realize it was so insulting to ask about your ukemi practice in your respective classes.....

I will share what we do in this regard anyway.

Danzan Ryu is known for having very good rolls and falls. That is because we practice them a lot. A normal class runs 2 hours.... the first 35-45 minutes are rolling and falling drills. We will do:

1. Forward rolls
2. Back rolls
3. Face falls (4 different drills for different heights and different experience levels)
4. Back falls (5 different drills for different experience levels)
5. Side fall landing drill
6. Side falls (many different drills here focusing on different aspects, usually though we start from a handstand)
7. Sutemi (front flip into a side fall position)

These are done every class. The focus is on landing on concrete. Yes, we practice on mats, but all my instructors insist on us landing in the correct position for concrete, even though we are on a mat... I try to do the same with my students.

This does have a draw back, many prospective students are not willing to do that much ukemi practice every class, they want to get to the throws, choking, locking and submitting parts. But, we are big on learning to take the falls before we learn to do the throw that produces the need for that fall.

When we get to doing the throws and takedowns, the first emphasis is on taking care of uke. Doing the throw such that uke can fall correctly and being aware of uke so that you can help uke into the correct fall during the technique. Many people don't like this idea either, as they feel you are being nice to uke and becoming too cooperative. Well, you need an uke to practice the throws... and if you have enough control to throw uke safely, you have enough control to change a few things and make the throw catastrophic for uke.... but you need the control and awareness of uke to make that happen. This control and awareness are gained by throwing uke in a controlled and safe manner.

Another thing that we consider is that statistically.... being able to take a fall on concrete will save you a lot more than any type of punch, kick, take down or submission. I know a small number of people, outside of law enforcement and military, that have used what they learned on another person outside of training or competition.... on the street if you will..... but almost every single person I know that trains Danzan Ryu has taken falls outside of class and used the rolls or falls we teach to be able to laugh it off and be embarrassed about it... but all could go about their day afterwards.

Sorry I missed this request

In my BJJ classes we do front rolls, back rolls and rear break falls every class - so not a lot
In my TMA (Buj) classes we do 4 directions of rolling, front and rear break falls every class. Beginners do simple, low versions, more advanced students have more challenging drills. These are the concrete proof versions, albeit we do now train on mats. Also people are taught how to receive the technique during class - so a big focus

And I agree 100% that break falls are the most important/useful technical skill you'll learn for self defence

 

[skribs136 156]

I think the main culprit here is a particular version of Tani Otoshi that is easy for people to screw up and end up sitting on the side of their partner's knee. I teach a version which is completely safe and has zero chance of damaging anyone's knees. I try to watch carefully during takedown rounds and stop students if I see them coming close to a dangerous leg position and show them the risks and how to do things safely.

Thing is: people don't always do it exactly the way its taught. It's those mistakes that cause injuries. And you can't watch everyone at once.

I'm not saying these positions are going to lead to injuries every day. But when they do lead to injuries, those injuries can be catastrophic.

 

[dunc]

Thing is: people don't always do it exactly the way its taught. It's those mistakes that cause injuries. And you can't watch everyone at once.

I'm not saying these positions are going to lead to injuries every day. But when they do lead to injuries, those injuries can be catastrophic.

I think that's why certain techniques should be "banned" for lower belts

Also I'd argue that there are tactically better methods than jumping guard and kani basami so probably not worth the time and risk to train them. Tani Otoshi is pretty useful 'though

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

Thing is: people don't always do it exactly the way its taught. It's those mistakes that cause injuries. And you can't watch everyone at once.

I'm not saying these positions are going to lead to injuries every day. But when they do lead to injuries, those injuries can be catastrophic.

Yep, that’s why I teach a fundamentally different version of Tani Otoshi that doesn’t come close to endangering the knees.

The classic Judo version is safe for the knees if you do it just right. But if you are sloppy or do it a little bit wrong, the knees can be in danger. The version I teach is safe - screwing it up enough to endanger your partner would require not just sloppiness, but doing a completely different technique.

 

[drop bear136 11]

Just so people understand the conversation.

Obviously if I get white line fever. And just start axe kicking the other guys knee from whatever angle you find yourself in.

You can have a bad day.

My only hip throw is uchimada these days.

And I do this hip bump version

 

[dunc]

These are the main culprits

Tani Otoshi

Kasi Basami

Jumping Guard

 

[Alan0354]

Yes agree with the princple

If you train TMA or for self defence then you must have technique that works in a natural environment
Similar to my point about the rules changing things - this changes your technique significantly

Eg break falls on uneven or unforgiving surfaces need a different technique to those on mats. The way of stepping is different on uneven or slippery surfaces etc etc

Having run a TMA (Bujinkan) class on hard floors for many years and recently switching to mats it's interesting how everyone's ukemi has already changed somewhat despite being taught the "correct" (ie concrete proof) way
Evolution in martial arts is very quick actually.....

You'd be surprise a lot of the chinese TMA simply refuse to change, they want to be exact. I wonder they ever even accept Bruce Lee new MMA style 50 years ago is a revolution instead of bad mouthing Bruce Lee and still say they can beat Bruce Lee with their traditional method.

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

I see at least two of the local BJJ gyms don’t even do takedowns, they consider it “unsafe”. They start all rolls on the mat. I’m not much a fan of that.

I’m very much not a fan of that. I almost wish they would just change the name of the art if they’re going to cut out that much of what makes it an effective martial art.

Just to follow up on this ...

I've met a fair number of BJJ black belts. Every single one that I know personally can fight. Even if they come from a BJJ gym that focuses just on sportive ground grappling, at some point during their journey they've taken the time to learn how to fight standing up, to strike and deal with strikes, to clinch, perform takedowns, and defend takedowns. But the more gyms out there teach exclusively sportive ground grappling without takedowns or other combative elements, the more likely that I will eventually start meeting BJJ black belts who don't know how to actually defend themselves in a fight. And that makes me sad.

I'm also concerned about BJJ students below black belt level. I try to make sure that anyone I promote to blue belt can at least use their skills in a fight. They don't have to be unstoppable beasts, but I want them to have at least some reliable fundamentals they could use if they ever got jumped in the parking lot after class.

 

[Alan0354]

Just to follow up on this ...

I've met a fair number of BJJ black belts. Every single one that I know personally can fight. Even if they come from a BJJ gym that focuses just on sportive ground grappling, at some point during their journey they've taken the time to learn how to fight standing up, to strike and deal with strikes, to clinch, perform takedowns, and defend takedowns. But the more gyms out there teach exclusively sportive ground grappling without takedowns or other combative elements, the more likely that I will eventually start meeting BJJ black belts who don't know how to actually defend themselves in a fight. And that makes me sad.

I'm also concerned about BJJ students below black belt level. I try to make sure that anyone I promote to blue belt can at least use their skills in a fight. They don't have to be unstoppable beasts, but I want them to have at least some reliable fundamentals they could use if they ever got jumped in the parking lot after class.

That's how it should be, everyone should evolve, not stuck to the old style blindly. I am just too old, or else, first thing I would to is to join BJJ class to learn new things. It's very obvious that BJJ kicked the butt of TMA striking style at the beginning. Some of the striking style learn to evolve and survive. Now becomes MMA.

 

[dunc]

That's how it should be, everyone should evolve, not stuck to the old style blindly. I am just too old, or else, first thing I would to is to join BJJ class to learn new things. It's very obvious that BJJ kicked the butt of TMA striking style at the beginning. Some of the striking style learn to evolve and survive. Now becomes MMA.

How old are you?
BJJ is actually pretty good for older folk

 

[Alan0354]

How old are you?
BJJ is actually pretty good for older folk

72, too old. Just had a hip replacement also.

 

[Anarax]

I know jujitsu grappling is very effective in UFC and other competition, easily beat striking MA by taking them down. I training in kick boxing long time ago and I am too old to train in ground game now. I was thinking about what to do in self defense on the street if I meet someone that do grappling.
From my understanding, grappling is effective in competition because of the rules of no eyes gauging and no hitting on the back of the head. BUT there is no rules in street fights. I think eyes gauging is the most effective for self defense against a grappler. If you look at the way the grappler tackle the opponent, their head will by around the chest or waist level of the opponent. For a second or two, I can easily reach the eyes with my hand and gauge the eyes.
Even if I get taken down and in guard position, it's natural to grab and hold onto the head of the person on top. I can still reach his eyes.
I just want to get opinion whether I am right or not. REMEMBER, I am talking about street fight with no rules, I think this is the weak point of grappling in real life. Please comment
thanks

Going for the eyes and groin can make a differnce, but learning takedown defense will be extremely useful. Learning grappling fundamentals to get back to a striking position is solid training that will help in a self-defense situation.