Question on defense against grappling in street fight

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

NOBODY USE HAMMER FIST IN THEIR STYLE

I do. Other people do as well.

In MMA, you mainly see hammer fists used on the ground, but there are some legitimate uses for them standing as well. I was doing some MMA sparring with one of my students a couple of days ago and was catching him repeatedly with hammer fists.

I don't like them much as an anti-grappling technique though. I use them standing mixed in with my punches to catch my partner from unexpected angles and on the ground for ground-and-pound.

 

[Kung Fu Wang137 167]

In MMA, you mainly see hammer fists used on the ground, but there are some legitimate uses for them standing as well.

When you throw a right hook, your opponent dodges under it. If you change your right hook into right back fist, your back fist will have a good chance to hit on top of your opponent's head. If you also follow with a left uppercut, you may knock him down right there.

In CMA, right hook, right back fist, left uppercut is a famous combo to train.

The difference between hammer fist, back fist, and overhand are not that much. But back fist has shorter path than hammer fist. Overhand can deliever more power that hammer fist.

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

I do. Other people do as well.

In MMA, you mainly see hammer fists used on the ground, but there are some legitimate uses for them standing as well. I was doing some MMA sparring with one of my students a couple of days ago and was catching him repeatedly with hammer fists.

I don't like them much as an anti-grappling technique though. I use them standing mixed in with my punches to catch my partner from unexpected angles and on the ground for ground-and-pound.

I certainly use it.

 

[Alan0354]

I do. Other people do as well.

In MMA, you mainly see hammer fists used on the ground, but there are some legitimate uses for them standing as well. I was doing some MMA sparring with one of my students a couple of days ago and was catching him repeatedly with hammer fists.

I don't like them much as an anti-grappling technique though. I use them standing mixed in with my punches to catch my partner from unexpected angles and on the ground for ground-and-pound.

Now more people are using it, but it's never very formal in the teaching, nothing like knife hand chopping or Iron palm that they bragged about, doing demonstrations and all that. I can definitely say neither one is as effective as simple hammer fist and won't have the power of the hammer fist as when you use hammer fist, you tighter at contact, it gives you a very solid hitting point, not like iron palm, there's nothing solid hitting AND it's not like in the movie that they use "CHI" internal force!!! Knife hand is still softer as the palm is open, nothing solid like a squeezed fist as hammer fist. It's just doesn't look good.

that's the problem with TMA invented from the older days, they concentrated on the "ART" part and the uniqueness. Look at Wing Chung, their hands fight as if there is a circle ring around the elbows. Why in the world they want to set limits on their techniques? Just to be different? I spent some time on WC, and you see how their masters get beaten. The sticky hands?!!!! Holding the two knees close together to limit their ability of moving around?

Only striking style that I think close to perfect is Muy Thai. Nothing nice looking, boxing hands, lower TKD kicks with elbows and knees. I remember I saw some MA competitions when I was in HK long time ago, all the BS from the CMA and they had their butts handed to them in competition by Muy Thai. MMA pretty much is the combination of Muy Thai and BJJ. this is the new world, improvement everyday, analyzing video like before boxing matches, football game. Learning the strong and weak points of opponents. NOT blindly limiting to the traditional style movement.

Too bad I am way too old to seriously practice.

 

[Alan0354]

I'll give it a shot. I think I have a reasonable claim to both expertise and neutrality on the topic. I'm an experienced instructor in both grappling and striking arts. I train with MMA fighters, but my personal martial arts practice is primarily focused on self-defense. I do train "street" techniques which are banned in MMA, such as eye gouges. And I've been following the development of MMA over the last 30 years or so.

In my judgment, the modern unified MMA ruleset (the most commonly used rules), actually give a slight advantage to striking over grappling. This is not surprising, because the people who run MMA promotions are trying to make money and the majority of casual MMA fans prefer to see striking because they don't understand the intricacies of grappling.

Rules which favor strikers

• Resets. If the reg judges that there is not enough activity in a clinch or on the ground, the fight is reset standing and at striking distance. However if there is inactivity at striking range, the ref doesn't reset the match in a clinch or on the ground.
• Rounds. If a round ends with the fighters on the ground, the next round always starts standing, meaning that a striker who is losing in grappling gets a free escape to their feet if they can survive to the bell.
• MMA gloves make it significantly harder to finish chokes.
• MMA gloves and hand wraps allow strikers to punch much harder without breaking their hands. (Before the introduction of MMA gloves, broken hands from punching were a regular occurrence.
• Clothing. MMA fighters wear just shorts (for men) or shorts + sports bra (for women) and grabbing clothes is not allowed. If fighters wore street clothes and grabbing them was allowable, then grapplers would have a much larger toolbox of throws, controls, and submissions to use.
• Ban on eye gouges. This actually favors strikers. In a battle of eye gouges, the advantage goes to the better grappler. I do train eye gouges, and the methods for applying and defending against them are all built on grappling fundamentals.
• Eye pokes. For the purpose of this list, I'm going to distinguish between eye pokes (hitting the eyes with extended fingers at punching range) and eye gouges (scooping of the eyes at close range with control of the head to prevent escape). Both are illegal under normal MMA rules. However, fighters who are willing to go that route know that they can often get away with a no-penalty warning for their first "accidental" eye poke at distance (just "forgot to keep their fingers curled in"). In contrast, there is no free warning or interpretation of an "accident" if a fighter were to apply a proper grappling-based eye gouge at close range.
• Fighting surface. The floor of the octagon has enough padding that fighters rarely get knocked out by a takedown. If they were fighting on a concrete floor, then big takedowns and throws would have a much higher chance of causing knockouts or serious injuries.
• Ban on takedowns that spike the opponent on their head. This rule was probably the result of the match between Frank Shamrock and Igor Zinoviev, where Shamrock ended Zinoviev's career by picking him up and driving him headfirst into the mat.

Rules with favor grapplers

• I'm going to include the ban on strikes to the back of the neck here, but it's not as one-sided as you seem to think. The main effective anti-grappling use of these strikes is against a certain style of wrestling against the cage where the fighter is leaning low using their spine like a spear to pin their opponent against the cage wall while they try to get control of the legs for a takedown. This approach does leave the back of the neck potentially exposed and if strikes to the back of the neck were allowed, then this style of takedown would become much less common. On the other hand, there are lots of styles of takedown which do not offer this vulnerability. And in any case, effectively using such strikes against a takedown attempt generally requires sufficient grappling skill to first stop the immediate takedown. Watch the early years of MMA fights, where the rule didn't exist, and see if you can find any takedowns stopped by strikes to the back of the head. Another point to consider - strikes to the back of the neck and head can be advantageous to grapplers as well. If you're winning the grappling on the ground and have your opponent's back but can't finish the choke, strikes to the back of the head and neck could be an alternative path to victory if they were allowed.

That's good analysis.

On the striking, one thing I want to add is to prevent injury of the fist and hands, I practice punching the 6X6 wood poll once every week for years to toughen up my hands and feet.

As for favoring grapplers, now a days, people better learn a little of both. Strikers needs to learn take down defense to a certain extend. As for street fight, there is no rules, being able to hit groin is advantage for both sides, striker can kick groin, that is more advantage than grappler grabbing the groin.

I am still practicing kick boxing and stick fight about 25min 6 days a week, both with kicking bags and in air. To me, this is my aerobics. I still doing weights, I can do 90 pushups in 2mins 40 situps easily in one set.

 

[Alan0354]

You say your anti grappling techiques are going to be better from prison rules. But his grappling techniques are also going to be better from prison rules.

So when he shoots in. He could grab your nuts. Making your ability to downward elbow a lot harder.

All the arguments you make for that downward elbow. Now get made for that takedown.

If there is no rules, striker is much easier to kick your nuts than you grab his nuts!!!! When grappler shoot and grab the nuts, striker can at the same time do eyes gauging. We'll see which one hurts more and do irreversible damage.

 

[dunc]

Hopefully I can share a balanced view as a long time practitioner in TMA and BJJ/MMA

It's clear that all combat sports include rules for the safety of the participants and that "illegal" techniques (ie those banned in combat sports) are highly effective and often fight enders
As a result combat sports practitioners often develop habits &/or favour techniques that expose them to "illegal" techniques

I'm of the view that combat sport practitioners often underestimate their exposure in this regard. Often this is as a result of some testing against TMA practitioners back in the day which in my view is flawed (see below)

Also when considering "street fights" they tend to forget that these "illegal techniques" are as sophisticated as any other technique they are familiar with. I so often hear folks say things like kicking the groin is just like a front kick or an eye poke is just a jab with your fingers out for example

However, I'm also of the view that TMA practitioners often
a) don't have a deep technical understanding of these "illegal" techniques. Particularly how to set them up under pressure, and
b) don't develop the skill needed to defend against a combat sport practitioner's attacks in order to buy time/space to apply their "illegal" techniques

So they overestimate the effectiveness of their ability to use "illegal" techniques

Finally, as an aside.... why does everyone think BJJ is just the bottom game (ie on your back)? Mostly it's about taking someone down and sitting on them, which is very consistent with TMA methodology

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

Hopefully I can share a balanced view as a long time practitioner in TMA and BJJ/MMA

It's clear that all combat sports include rules for the safety of the participants and that "illegal" techniques (ie those banned in combat sports) are highly effective and often fight enders
As a result combat sports practitioners often develop habits &/or favour techniques that expose them to "illegal" techniques

I'm of the view that combat sport practitioners often underestimate their exposure in this regard. Often this is as a result of some testing against TMA practitioners back in the day which in my view is flawed (see below)

Also when considering "street fights" they tend to forget that these "illegal techniques" are as sophisticated as any other technique they are familiar with. I so often hear folks say things like kicking the groin is just like a front kick or an eye poke is just a jab with your fingers out for example

However, I'm also of the view that TMA practitioners often
a) don't have a deep technical understanding of these "illegal" techniques. Particularly how to set them up under pressure, and
b) don't develop the skill needed to defend against a combat sport practitioner's attacks in order to buy time/space to apply their "illegal" techniques

So they overestimate the effectiveness of their ability to use "illegal" techniques

Finally, as an aside.... why does everyone think BJJ is just the bottom game (ie on your back)? Mostly it's about taking someone down and sitting on them, which is very consistent with TMA methodology

I see at least two of the local BJJ gyms don’t even do takedowns, they consider it “unsafe”. They start all rolls on the mat. I’m not much a fan of that.

 

[Tony Dismukes135 31]

I see at least two of the local BJJ gyms don’t even do takedowns, they consider it “unsafe”. They start all rolls on the mat. I’m not much a fan of that.

I’m very much not a fan of that. I almost wish they would just change the name of the art if they’re going to cut out that much of what makes it an effective martial art.

 

[Alan0354]

Hopefully I can share a balanced view as a long time practitioner in TMA and BJJ/MMA

It's clear that all combat sports include rules for the safety of the participants and that "illegal" techniques (ie those banned in combat sports) are highly effective and often fight enders
As a result combat sports practitioners often develop habits &/or favour techniques that expose them to "illegal" techniques

I'm of the view that combat sport practitioners often underestimate their exposure in this regard. Often this is as a result of some testing against TMA practitioners back in the day which in my view is flawed (see below)

Also when considering "street fights" they tend to forget that these "illegal techniques" are as sophisticated as any other technique they are familiar with. I so often hear folks say things like kicking the groin is just like a front kick or an eye poke is just a jab with your fingers out for example

However, I'm also of the view that TMA practitioners often
a) don't have a deep technical understanding of these "illegal" techniques. Particularly how to set them up under pressure, and
b) don't develop the skill needed to defend against a combat sport practitioner's attacks in order to buy time/space to apply their "illegal" techniques

So they overestimate the effectiveness of their ability to use "illegal" techniques

Finally, as an aside.... why does everyone think BJJ is just the bottom game (ie on your back)? Mostly it's about taking someone down and sitting on them, which is very consistent with TMA methodology

I think I stir up enough controversies. Talk about real life self defense vs in dojo, it's a huge difference.

For bare hand fights, space is not a huge difference, BUT it's very different if you fight bare foot in level surface in dojo than with shoes in real life environment. In MA, we always learn to keep the feet on the ground, sliding on the floor when moving. BE CAREFUL in real life. I never question this until I had my hip replacement lately where I can start punching and stick fight practice without kicking. I used to practice in the garage with my heavy bags bare footed for kicking. But since I cannot kick after the the hip replacement for a few weeks, I started wearing shoes( sandles) so I don't dirty my feet in the garage. WHAT A BIG DIFFERENCE. I almost trip when I sliding my feet around with shoes. It's a completely different feel with shoes on.

Then I started wearing shoes inside the house to practice. I was tripping left and right, shoes get caught by carpet. I started raising the feet up slightly so I don't trip. BUT still there are accidents that my feet still get caught.

Don't listen to me. Just wear your shoes and practice and see what happen.

So far I am only doing upper body exercise, kicking is completely different with shoes in real environment that you have uneven ground, rough ground on the street. People better practice in real life environment first to determine what technique is useful or not.

This is more important for fighting using a cane. I spend half and half time on bare handed and stick. I research all the style I can find and there is NONE to me that is practical stick defense in real life. The most common ones are Philippine escrima and Irish stick fight. They all use single handed with lighter stick. They gather speed by swinging the stick in big circles to gather speed. This is ABSOLUTELY USELESS IN REAL LIFE where you have people around, furniture and all that get in the way of the swing. Sure they look pretty and unique with the Irish style. I started practicing with one hand until I saw a competition where both people wacked each other stupid from beginning to end. They both still standing at the end. Sure they wear protection, BUT STILL STANDING AFTER BEING HIT LIKE 50 TO 100 TIMES? I dropper the single hand stick since that day.

I ended up using a heavy stick of almost 2lbs, swinging with both hands in very compact swing so I can use it in real life environment. I practice in hallway and in bathroom with confined space and generate power with shorting swing. I learn this from Lamont Glass, one of the founder of this site. Here is the video. Simple, no nonsense, not pretty but it is the only one that is useful in real life.

But this is off the topic here. I just want to stress TO USE COMMON SENSE, THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHING. THINK SCIENTIFICALLY, NOT TRUST WHAT IS TAUGHT FROM OLDER MASTERS.

I've been practice over 2 years like the video, adding footwork learned from kick boxing to go in and out, left and right together with hitting. Keep it simple, no fancy stuffs. I put more effort in hitting the knees and lower part of the legs as it's harder to block.

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

I’m very much not a fan of that. I almost wish they would just change the name of the art if they’re going to cut out that much of what makes it an effective martial art.

Yeah it can’t be very useful if they can’t takedown effectively.

 

[skribs136 156]

I’m very much not a fan of that. I almost wish they would just change the name of the art if they’re going to cut out that much of what makes it an effective martial art.

At the same time, I get where it comes from. We have one guy that used to train at my gym, had a horrific leg injury as a result of a take-down attempt that trapped his leg. He'll probably never walk right again.

Danaher has been very widely quoted as saying, "The number one source of catastrophic injury in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is uncontrolled falling body weight."

You eliminate most of that when you don't have take-downs.

 

[wab25]

At the same time, I get where it comes from. We have one guy that used to train at my gym, had a horrific leg injury as a result of a take-down attempt that trapped his leg. He'll probably never walk right again.

Danaher has been very widely quoted as saying, "The number one source of catastrophic injury in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is uncontrolled falling body weight."

You eliminate most of that when you don't have take-downs.

This got me thinking.... how often are the rolls and falls practiced? And to what degree? Learning to take the falls correctly makes the practice of takedowns and throws much safer.

I am curious here @skribs and @Tony Dismukes
What kind of ukemi (rolling / falling drills) do you practice in your classes?
How often do you practice ukemi?

 

[skribs136 156]

This got me thinking.... how often are the rolls and falls practiced? And to what degree? Learning to take the falls correctly makes the practice of takedowns and throws much safer.

I am curious here @skribs and @Tony Dismukes
What kind of ukemi (rolling / falling drills) do you practice in your classes?
How often do you practice ukemi?

This wasn't a breakfall issue. His leg got trapped in an awkward position and broke in 3 places.

Techniques that tend to do this are usually banned in BJJ, or at least banned at lower belt levels. For example, jumping guard and flying scissor take-downs are notorious for blowing out people's knees. Rokas (the Aikido-turned-MMA youtuber who runs the Ultimate Self Defense Championship series on youtube) had a very bad knee injury because of this, and he comes from one of the arts most known for ukemi.

In my gym, we've noticed a pattern with take-downs from the back to the back. So the rule at my gym is if you get behind someone, you can only take them down to the front.

 

[wab25]

This wasn't a breakfall issue.

I am still curious what kind of ukemi your class does and how often....

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

I think I stir up enough controversies. Talk about real life self defense vs in dojo, it's a huge difference.

For bare hand fights, space is not a huge difference, BUT it's very different if you fight bare foot in level surface in dojo than with shoes in real life environment. In MA, we always learn to keep the feet on the ground, sliding on the floor when moving. BE CAREFUL in real life. I never question this until I had my hip replacement lately where I can start punching and stick fight practice without kicking. I used to practice in the garage with my heavy bags bare footed for kicking. But since I cannot kick after the the hip replacement for a few weeks, I started wearing shoes( sandles) so I don't dirty my feet in the garage. WHAT A BIG DIFFERENCE. I almost trip when I sliding my feet around with shoes. It's a completely different feel with shoes on.

Then I started wearing shoes inside the house to practice. I was tripping left and right, shoes get caught by carpet. I started raising the feet up slightly so I don't trip. BUT still there are accidents that my feet still get caught.

Don't listen to me. Just wear your shoes and practice and see what happen.

So far I am only doing upper body exercise, kicking is completely different with shoes in real environment that you have uneven ground, rough ground on the street. People better practice in real life environment first to determine what technique is useful or not.

This is more important for fighting using a cane. I spend half and half time on bare handed and stick. I research all the style I can find and there is NONE to me that is practical stick defense in real life. The most common ones are Philippine escrima and Irish stick fight. They all use single handed with lighter stick. They gather speed by swinging the stick in big circles to gather speed. This is ABSOLUTELY USELESS IN REAL LIFE where you have people around, furniture and all that get in the way of the swing. Sure they look pretty and unique with the Irish style. I started practicing with one hand until I saw a competition where both people wacked each other stupid from beginning to end. They both still standing at the end. Sure they wear protection, BUT STILL STANDING AFTER BEING HIT LIKE 50 TO 100 TIMES? I dropper the single hand stick since that day.

I ended up using a heavy stick of almost 2lbs, swinging with both hands in very compact swing so I can use it in real life environment. I practice in hallway and in bathroom with confined space and generate power with shorting swing. I learn this from Lamont Glass, one of the founder of this site. Here is the video. Simple, no nonsense, not pretty but it is the only one that is useful in real life.

But this is off the topic here. I just want to stress TO USE COMMON SENSE, THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHING. THINK SCIENTIFICALLY, NOT TRUST WHAT IS TAUGHT FROM OLDER MASTERS.

I've been practice over 2 years like the video, adding footwork learned from kick boxing to go in and out, left and right together with hitting. Keep it simple, no fancy stuffs. I put more effort in hitting the knees and lower part of the legs as it's harder to block.

My students always wear cotton soled shoes on a waxed and polished concrete floor. It is incredibly slippery to almost frictionless. This has many benefits in training that apply somewhat to what you say here. Many people only train barefoot, this is fine, but bare feet grip mats very well and this allows people to kick higher and punch harder without the control needed for alternate environments. I occasionally have people put street shoes on and do the exercises outside on asphalt so they get a sense of the differences. It is a significant feature in my teaching methodology.

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

At the same time, I get where it comes from. We have one guy that used to train at my gym, had a horrific leg injury as a result of a take-down attempt that trapped his leg. He'll probably never walk right again.

Danaher has been very widely quoted as saying, "The number one source of catastrophic injury in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is uncontrolled falling body weight."

You eliminate most of that when you don't have take-downs.

You may also eliminate some of your efficacy in self defense by not providing opportunities to practice your openings. How will the student grapple effectively without takedowns?

 

[drop bear136 11]

I am still curious what kind of ukemi your class does and how often....

Almost nothing for us.

Yeah. I think its weird. I do takedowns that kind of remove the need for it.

Actually I think the muay Thai class might be worse as the falls are more ballistic. And they don't do falls either.

 

[skribs136 156]

I am still curious what kind of ukemi your class does and how often....

Again, irrelevant. Ukemi is for controlled falling bodyweight, and we're discussing uncontrolled.

 

[skribs136 156]

You may also eliminate some of your efficacy in self defense by not providing opportunities to practice your openings. How will the student grapple effectively without takedowns?

Muay Thai fighters may be better at not getting punched in the head than TKD fighters, because Muay Thai fighters spar with punches to the head.

But you know what? By not training Muay Thai, I also don't get punched in the head.

I could take your side of the argument further and say that by not actually breaking people's arms in jiu-jitsu I'm not training effectively because I'm training to stop it, or that people who train kali or do force-on-force training with simunitions aren't training effectively because they're not using real weapons or ammunition and actually hurting each other.

What's the point in "self-defense" if, like my friend, you can never walk normal again because of the training for it?