Online Ranking!

[ATC]

Well by your same logic being more functional won't help you either. If a person with good form still loses to a person with bad form then form doesn't matter. The form was bad but at some point form becomes meaningless, its the finger pointing to the moon. If form teachs or transmits knowledge then its done it purpose, a dojo is different from your living room, a bar, a parking lot or even a beach. You may be required to defend yourself on or in either of those enivronments and in each case a variety of factors effect your form.

Since as you said, someone getting beat regardless of form doesn't matter and so "good form" (being the result of practice under the best possible conditions) can't have an effect function being the outcome regardless of conditions.

To better illestrate this, people focused on style as taught by their system of training are always predictable. People trained in multiple styles have the ability to bring more forms to the table. People who understand that you need to transcend form often adjust and adapt to random and unknown conditions without the need to refer to a taught form.

Sure an illiterate person may be able to function better once they learn to read or it could have no effect because they still reference everything by TV and what others tell them. Within the context of that person's life in society being able to read or not may have little to no difference toward their function. The same can be said of form since form may or may not be an aid within the context of situation...

Your missing my point. You are taking the extremes of either end to try and make your point. You are also only using one point of view to make a point and that is fighting. I guess you can call the fight the end all of any martial art or the end product, in other words how functional you or your system is. I get this and can agree that in the end it is all about how functional you are. But you still need to have good form to get you there. You are not just going to be functional because you want to be. There is a process, and the process starts with form. To do a simple punch regardless of style you need to know a few things. The simplest is how to make a fist or fist form. Make your fist incorrect or bad fist form and you have a broken hand if you connect with something.

Now the augment is online ranking in one system or another, doesn’t matter. The idea is bad because if you are going to learn TKD, Shotakan, Wadu, Chin Na, or whatever you need to know if what you are doing conforms to each styles form. If you do a Kempo side kick in a TKD system it will be wrong and you are not doing TKD in that aspect and you should not have a rank as such in TKD. This is the closest thing I can come up with to try and make my point pertaining to this thread.

Now to your point of fighting, you still need proper form to be effective, no matter the technique. No you do not have to be in a styles back stance or front stance and the likes, but you do have make a proper fist, and swing in a basic way so that when you make contact you will be effective and not hurt yourself. You have to understand how to deliver any technique with power but still not be out of control as to not expose yourself to an easy counter. You need to know how to start any such techniques as to not telegraph your intentions to much also as to not be countered. All of those basic concepts start with proper form. Not proper forms as in patterns but form in execution. This is regardless of style. Concepts are concepts and they all start with form.

You develop this form over time with drills, sparring, and an instructor to point out your flaws when you make them so you can correct them. No video or online tutorial will do this. Now if you just fight often enough you may come to some conclusion on your own and make the proper adjustments after enough fights and mistakes, yes.

Yes there are freaks out there that are quick and strong and will just win in a fight sometimes with no training. I have seen people get KO'd with a wild luck swing by someone with their eyes closed. It did not mean that they could repeat such act at will. It is no different than winning the lottery. You did not need any skill to win, it just happened. Repeat the lottery win at least 50% of the time. OK 20% of the time, or even 5% of the time. No one can.

Now if you train any of those fast strong types of people in any style or art they will be much better. And the wins they use to get by just brute strength or luck will now be easier, and repeatable on an increased basis.

Even though there are two different issue regarding form, form still reigns over simple function. Form makes function more effective in all cases.

 

[Draven]

How is he compared to a black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu who studied with a real sensei?

How is he compared to a black belt in Kenpo who studied with a real sensei?

Is he now teaching either of these styles?

Depends on the Bujinkan sensei, I've seen Bujin who where worthless & some who were great. It all depends on how it taught I guess. Compared to Kenpo, IDK but his movements are crisp and he has been fairly effective in a few fights he has been in. He is no teaching but not professionally, he just gets neighborhood kids and a few family members who he teachs things when they ask. Thats kinda a gray area with the teach friends and family, but they know he learned from books and video.

Your missing my point. You are taking the extremes of either end to try and make your point. You are also only using one point of view to make a point and that is fighting. I guess you can call the fight the end all of any martial art or the end product, in other words how functional you or your system is. I get this and can agree that in the end it is all about how functional you are. But you still need to have good form to get you there. You are not just going to be functional because you want to be. There is a process, and the process starts with form. To do a simple punch regardless of style you need to know a few things. The simplest is how to make a fist or fist form. Make your fist incorrect or bad fist form and you have a broken hand if you connect with something.

Now the augment is online ranking in one system or another, doesn’t matter. The idea is bad because if you are going to learn TKD, Shotakan, Wadu, Chin Na, or whatever you need to know if what you are doing conforms to each styles form. If you do a Kempo side kick in a TKD system it will be wrong and you are not doing TKD in that aspect and you should not have a rank as such in TKD. This is the closest thing I can come up with to try and make my point pertaining to this thread.

The broken fist is an assumption as there is many variations of a fist in different systems but you are correct in the kicking aspect which relates back to the many variations of the fist. It all comes down to application of principles and while form is an application of the principles it is not the only applications.

Now to your point of fighting, you still need proper form to be effective, no matter the technique. No you do not have to be in a styles back stance or front stance and the likes, but you do have make a proper fist, and swing in a basic way so that when you make contact you will be effective and not hurt yourself. You have to understand how to deliver any technique with power but still not be out of control as to not expose yourself to an easy counter. You need to know how to start any such techniques as to not telegraph your intentions to much also as to not be countered. All of those basic concepts start with proper form. Not proper forms as in patterns but form in execution. This is regardless of style. Concepts are concepts and they all start with form.

You develop this form over time with drills, sparring, and an instructor to point out your flaws when you make them so you can correct them. No video or online tutorial will do this. Now if you just fight often enough you may come to some conclusion on your own and make the proper adjustments after enough fights and mistakes, yes.

Exactly form is a transmission for function. At a beginning level we often learn form in the execution, that form varies to certain styles and what not. For example; the cross/reverse punch, the principles are exactly the same but sparring is done often times in a vacume of the school; on mats, in a gi & with protective gear. All that changes the function slightly, even watching black belts spar in against each other they present sloppy form as they have to execute multiple actions at once but their sloppy form is all a product of executing several different functioning principles at once. Form changes as the function changes.

Yes there are freaks out there that are quick and strong and will just win in a fight sometimes with no training. I have seen people get KO'd with a wild luck swing by someone with their eyes closed. It did not mean that they could repeat such act at will. It is no different than winning the lottery. You did not need any skill to win, it just happened. Repeat the lottery win at least 50% of the time. OK 20% of the time, or even 5% of the time. No one can.

Now if you train any of those fast strong types of people in any style or art they will be much better. And the wins they use to get by just brute strength or luck will now be easier, and repeatable on an increased basis.

Even though there are two different issue regarding form, form still reigns over simple function. Form makes function more effective in all cases.

Here is the thing, sure there is the luck shot theory. Its kinda like the magic bullet theory. I once get in a fight (started it actually) because I got tired of hearing a guy tell me how tough he was, in a rather rude way. He had no training but buffed up his ability with wieght lifting and strength building exercises.

His advantage of size and power where not some freakish luck but a form of finding an advantage. Could he repeat his KOs of others with a wild swing? Yes, becuase all of them we untrained and moved away from the big guy swinging at them. So they got right in the range of the big hey maker. I did something completely different and stepped into the punch which ended up with him on his tail looking up at me.

It basicly comes down to this I agree online ranking should include some way of improve or correcting someone on what they are doing right or wrong. I agree with that form and function go hand in hand in the vaccume of training but not always so in the realm of sparring or actually fighting. I still believe that form teachs function and function is decided by situation and surrounds. I'll even go so far as to disagree about the issue of stance, becuase the act of learning to transition from back stance to front stance also applies to shidt the body behind a straight punch/jab. All that practive in form translates to principles of function. Form may not be exact in application outside the vaccume of training but is a required element for learning principles which will be applied in a variety of situations & surroundings.

I was less concerned with trying to convense you of anything then say trying to allow you to convense me. I happen to learn allot from Socratic debates.

 

[IcemanSK]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before (& my guess is that it has) but how do ya know if you're doing the techniques properly when you don't have someone in front of you teaching you?!

With Tae-Bo it really doesn't matter...it's all about the sweat!! With MA, even the smallest parts of a technique make a big difference!

It takes one-on-one instruction to be able to know if the student is doing a physical skill correctly.

I just don't see online ranking being valid.

 

[just2kicku]

What if its not being lazy but lack of anything in the area? For example, I have a friend who has a black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu through the home study course (nothing in his area) & a black belt in Dragon Kenpo (home study course) and in his area he has nothing. The closest MA school is a joke & its 50 miles away from him. Driving 100 miles both ways to attend a TKD class designed for little kids just ain't worth it.

I think that if he wants to learn a system bad enough, you'll find a way to get there. I used to drive 2-2 1/2 hours every nite to go to my dojo. I did that for years till I moved closer.

It depends on how bad you want it and what your willing to do to get it. Some are willing to do more than others.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before (& my guess is that it has) but how do ya know if you're doing the techniques properly when you don't have someone in front of you teaching you?!

With Tae-Bo it really doesn't matter...it's all about the sweat!! With MA, even the smallest parts of a technique make a big difference!

It takes one-on-one instruction to be able to know if the student is doing a physical skill correctly.

That pretty well sums it up. In fact, perfectly!

just don't see online ranking being valid.

Validity is not really the issue. The rank is 'valid' within the organization. I think that better word would be equitable. Online rank cannot be equitable because it lacks the qualifications to make it so.

If I earn a black belt through Gracie University online, training hard with my buddies in the garage, I may know the techniques, and may even know them correctly, but I will not have rolled with anybody that is not simply my own level watching on the video screen and trying to figure it out with their buddies. Thus, their blackbelt is 'valid', as Gracie honors it, but it its not equitable to one that was earned in an actual Gracie school where a student would have to roll with more experienced students and would be tested in their abilities to a much greater degree.

By the same token, Steven Lopez could probably gain an online ranking from another TKD association and it would be both organizationally valid and equitable, but only because it is Steven Lopez, not because the video course was an analogue for live training.

It is more than just live versus online/video that makes the difference between the two. It is the complete absence of advanced practitioners to work with in addition. We all learn a lot from sparring with that black belt that works with the class and helps out the instructor. She may not be the one running the class, but you get to see her in action and can see in an advanced resisting opponent what the system is supposed to look like.

If it is just a kid and his buddies in the garage, none of them is advanced.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

I still believe that form teachs function and function is decided by situation and surrounds.

This one statement of yours says it all and is exactlly what I have been saying.

 

[Milt G.]

Personally I think online ranking is a joke. It's there for someone too damn lazy to drive to a real instructor. I do think however videos can be a good supplement to real live training as a TOOL, but thats it.

I've put a lot of blood, sweat, black eyes and bloody noses into my art. And these were done to me by people I consider "Ohana" or family. I think if someone wants to get their rank online, then they are a joke as well.

Hello,

I think that much of "on line ranking" is worthless as far as recognition is concerned. But not all of it.
It has to be administered by a legitimate instructor, or group, in a time tested fashion with lots of checks and balances.

Nothing beats regular one on one instruction at a reputable school. Sadly, not everyone has access to that luxury.

And no... I am not the product of "on line ranking"...

Thanks for your post!
Milt G.

 

[IcemanSK]

I think many of us here are in agreement that, at the very least, online ranking would leave major hole & gaps in one's training. So, my question is, "why are such well-respected folks as the Gracies & the Machado brothers offering such online ranking programs?

The easy answer is $$...but it can't just be that. These folks the biggest names in their Art. I wonder if their certs for these programs say "online" on them. My guess is no they don't.

We can all be like Fox news & CNN & endlessly guess as to why they do. I just do don't get it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that the easy answer is likely the correct one in this case.

Daniel