Online Ranking!

[Daniel Sullivan]

For me, at least, the rank itself is not the issue. It is more that the progression of rank is accompanied by a progression in the techniques being taught.

If the person is ranked all the way to master instructor but does not have a firm grasp on the material from the previous ranks, then you have a person who's credentials say that he is qualified to teach, when in reality, he is not.

As men honor titles, the real issue is not that the guy has rank (who cares?), but the possiblity that he may go take that rank and use it to lure in customers who do not know better and thus transmit the material in an ineffective way, thus perpetuating bad instruction. The fact that he may call himself Super Soke is irrelevent, though amusing.

This is really not an online/offline issue; this problem is rampant in brick and mortar schools as well. The only thing that is online specific is that when the instruction is online, the possiblity of being moved through the curriculum without ever becoming proficient is simply greater.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

One more example of why on-line training is bad.

Form. How do you develope the correct form. In the begining everything about form is unnatural. It feels bad and is not natural to how anyone is use to standing or moving.

In the begining an instructors number on thing he does is to constantly correct form. Bend this, straighten that, adjust this. There is no way any student even likes to hold a simple horse stance, let alone any other of the crazy stance we do. Correct form hurts until you develope the muscles needed to do them correctly.

Even when a student thinks his form is correct there are always adjustments needed.

No, the more I think about it the more I know that there is no way anyone can become any good by learning from a video.

Just take Olympic runners as one more example. Nothing easier than running is there. Well I can tell you from experience that running to be the fastest man on the planet has a ton of form that no one outside of track and field knows about. Proper hand and arm movement, posture, stride leangth, breathing, timing of posture positions, and a ton of other stuff that you would not think of. All of those things are the difference in a 14 second 100 meters, and a 10 second 100 meters. 4 seconds in the track world is like a grown man fighting a 5 year old.

Videos and online training are bad, bad, bad. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One more example of why on-line training can often be bad.

Form. How do you develope the correct form? In the begining everything about form is unnatural. It feels bad and is not natural to how anyone is use to standing or moving.

In the begining an instructors number on thing he does is to constantly correct form. Bend this, straighten that, adjust this. There is no way any student even likes to hold a simple horse stance, let alone any other of the crazy stance we do. Correct form hurts until you develope the muscles needed to do them correctly.

Even when a student thinks his form is correct there are always adjustments needed.

No, the more I think about it the more I know that there is no way anyone can become any good by learning from scratch or from a beginning level with only some previous training (such as a green belt or lower) from a video.

Just take Olympic runners as one more example. Nothing easier than running is there. Well I can tell you from experience that running to be the fastest man on the planet has a ton of form that no one outside of track and field knows about. Proper hand and arm movement, posture, stride leangth, breathing, timing of posture positions, and a ton of other stuff that you would not think of. All of those things are the difference in a 14 second 100 meters, and a 10 second 100 meters. 4 seconds in the track world is like a grown man fighting a 5 year old.

Videos and online training are bad, bad, bad except for a fairly advanced practitioner in a similar style. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I agree with you pretty much completely on this, though I made a few adjustement in blue above that mark where our views differ.

The bolded and underlined part I agree with 300%!! And you stated it excellently!

Daniel

 

[KELLYG]

"We have all seen schools which teach in person and the students and instructors still aren't that good. Whats the difference from having rank from one of those and rank from a video course or on-line? So again what makes rank important?"

A in school teaching environment can be viewed before you buy so to speak. If the instructors and students performance looks poor at least you can go down the block and test drive another school. Video's however you can not Rank is not all that important. In a school type training you may be shown that same thing 17 times in 17 different views by 17 different people. Then you can ask questions. Sometimes the way things are taught on-line would not be effective on the street but if you had one on one time with a live person it can be modified to fit your own personal physical needs, thus making it more effective.

 

[Jdokan]

If you're going to be ranked on-line..then expect to be "ranked" off line as well!!!
Would you trust your surgeon if qualified similarly???

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you're going to be ranked on-line..then expect to be "ranked" off line as well!!!

Unless you advertise it, nobody will know any different. You have a black belt that you received for completing a martial arts class. Sadly, there are enough black belts that cannot fight that I doubt that even that would be a clue to most.

Would you trust your surgeon if qualified similarly???

No, but surgury is not really comparable to a martial art and most online BB's are not going to go out and set up schools. They just want to learn a martial art and/or think that having a "black belt" is cool.

Yes, I would be very leary of an instructor who's training is entirely online and would not take instruction from him or her. Online rank only would also send me the other direction.

But if it were a coworker who strikes up a karate conversation and it came while chatting that got his BB from Phoenix University's TKD online elective, I really would not care.

Daniel

 

[Nolerama]

I'm in a gym that doesn't rank. We're a club, and we go to competitions and do pretty well.

Personally, as a bouncer, I've used what I've learned in a MMA club for SD purposes. It does happen. And I learned it all in a room full of martial arts geeks that don't mind training hard (but smart). We communicate our perceptions of each others' games without fear of hurting each others feelings. Because we teach each other, and find ways to better ourselves through self-motivation and practical, fundamental learning techniques.

But there's no BB running around. We get our game from traveling around and meeting new people in the sub grappling/MMA community, seminar, online tutorial, video tutorial, and functional Alive sparring with progressive resistance when training technique.

Strangely enough, this format happens all over the US; and produces a lot of really good competitors and excellent coaches.

That being said, a lot of us have been looking around and have come to the conclusion that getting belted would be "kinda cool" if only to increase our exposure to more people in the sub-grappling community. We've also been fine-tuning our technique by visiting other instructors in the area.

And it all works. If you want the rank just to get a rank and boast about it, then go online. It's easier, I guess (I have a feeling that it won't be a easy in a few years). But a rank will come to you when it does.

Honestly, I'd rather have guys on the sidelines saying "Man that guy is pretty good." Than have a belt in a system I marginally follow and get owned by fresh white belts because I wasn't ready.

But ultimately, this is coming from a Club guy, who wasn't intent on ranking up initially; but just wanted to train, spar, and get into shape. It's been an awesome journey, and I feel I've learned a lot about my own body type, when applied to submission grappling and striking.

Lots of MA students get ranked and never feel comfortable enough to appreciate their martial skill, unless their instructor instructs them. I've been there.

And I'm not going back to that.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Well I'm gonna play Devils advocate here, what if all rank is worthless? What if it doesn't matter what rank anyone has? I mean education is often used as a word for indocturination and indocturination is nothing but a form of control. Control of what & for what?

We have all seen schools which teach in person and the students and instructors still aren't that good. Whats the difference from having rank from one of those and rank from a video course or online? So again what makes rank important?

In short to quote Nicolo Machiavelli "Titles do not honor men, men honor titles."

Rank is not important. But skill is. Regardless of online ranking or no: If you don't master the skills, any training at all is pointless. Online ranking is pointless, as is pure online training.

Live training may be good or may be bad. Fair enough.
But virtual training / viedo training / book trainin without live training is always bad.

 

[Draven]

The only thing that is online specific is that when the instruction is online, the possiblity of being moved through the curriculum without ever becoming proficient is simply greater.

Daniel

That is all well & good & I agree with you but, looking at it from this stand point; who decides and dictates rank? When skill becomes an issue (as it should always be) rank becomes meaningless. We all know that the dojo or gym is nothing compared to real world SD situations.

I see nothing wrong with online or video lessons or testing so long as they are not presented in the "dojo format." Meaning that (and especially at the beginning) the material has to be presented in skill set focus format. I see little difference between video training and schools which teach for 1 or 3 hour a week & expect students to train on there own. If I'm training 12 hours a week and only being corrected for an hour a day...

One more example of why on-line training is bad.

Form. How do you develope the correct form. In the begining everything about form is unnatural. It feels bad and is not natural to how anyone is use to standing or moving.

Videos and online training are bad, bad, bad. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Form is dictated by function alone, its one of the issues I have with a great deal of TMA people I meet. They focus so much on "form" that they forget function. I'm trained in a few TMAs myself & having studied with instructors who were focused on function more then form, I learn to apply techniques before they became polished training exercises.

If the goal is "form" then yes there may be issues, but that like anything translates to the goal. Good form doesn't always equal good SD skills or even good skills period. Things like form & MA system are meaningless in the heat of battle, "form" is used to teach fundamental concepts. Those concepts are based on the goals of the system & form takes a back seat to other more important concepts. If you are there to learn SD for example, you aren't going to be focused on looking good so much as applying good. If your there to compete depending on the competition form takes a back step to the function of the form if you're talking MMA or Kick Boxing.

Using your running example; there is so much that form doesn't teach but is a tool for teaching.

A in school teaching environment can be viewed before you buy so to speak. If the instructors and students performance looks poor at least you can go down the block and test drive another school. Video's however you can not Rank is not all that important. In a school type training you may be shown that same thing 17 times in 17 different views by 17 different people. Then you can ask questions. Sometimes the way things are taught on-line would not be effective on the street but if you had one on one time with a live person it can be modified to fit your own personal physical needs, thus making it more effective.

I agree with you except, that I need someone to tell how to modify a technique. I say this a lot and I'll say it here; part of MA training is learning to think for yourself & that translates to being able to adapt to new situations. This is where I have an issue with MAs, in that focus on style, system or form. Things like form & MA system are meaningless in the heat of battle, "form" is used to teach fundamental concepts & those concepts adjust with needs. You can't teach indefinent variations of a single technique, muchless multiple techniques

Rank is not important. But skill is. Regardless of online ranking or no: If you don't master the skills, any training at all is pointless. Online ranking is pointless, as is pure online training.

Live training may be good or may be bad. Fair enough.
But virtual training / viedo training / book trainin without live training is always bad.

I agree, I think any Home Study Course online or no should designed for at least two people in mind which would give someone a chance to spar and a buddy to correct issues in techniques before they become a problem.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Lots of MA students get ranked and never feel comfortable enough to appreciate their martial skill, unless their instructor instructs them.

Sadly this is very true.

They just don't realize, or their instructor doesn't instill in them that a time will come when they are on their own, and if they want to progress, they have to be.

 

[Guardian]

I'm in a gym that doesn't rank. We're a club, and we go to competitions and do pretty well.

Personally, as a bouncer, I've used what I've learned in a MMA club for SD purposes. It does happen. And I learned it all in a room full of martial arts geeks that don't mind training hard (but smart). We communicate our perceptions of each others' games without fear of hurting each others feelings. Because we teach each other, and find ways to better ourselves through self-motivation and practical, fundamental learning techniques.

But there's no BB running around. We get our game from traveling around and meeting new people in the sub grappling/MMA community, seminar, online tutorial, video tutorial, and functional Alive sparring with progressive resistance when training technique.

Strangely enough, this format happens all over the US; and produces a lot of really good competitors and excellent coaches.

That being said, a lot of us have been looking around and have come to the conclusion that getting belted would be "kinda cool" if only to increase our exposure to more people in the sub-grappling community. We've also been fine-tuning our technique by visiting other instructors in the area.

And it all works. If you want the rank just to get a rank and boast about it, then go online. It's easier, I guess (I have a feeling that it won't be a easy in a few years). But a rank will come to you when it does.

Honestly, I'd rather have guys on the sidelines saying "Man that guy is pretty good." Than have a belt in a system I marginally follow and get owned by fresh white belts because I wasn't ready.

But ultimately, this is coming from a Club guy, who wasn't intent on ranking up initially; but just wanted to train, spar, and get into shape. It's been an awesome journey, and I feel I've learned a lot about my own body type, when applied to submission grappling and striking.

Lots of MA students get ranked and never feel comfortable enough to appreciate their martial skill, unless their instructor instructs them. I've been there.

And I'm not going back to that.

Amen to these comments right here. When I first started out many moons ago. We didn't worry about rank, sure we had it, but the focus was skill and techniques and survival as cops in the military. Your comments hit straight home for me. The skills are what counts, knowing I can (though older lol) do it far exceeds that Blackbelt in my closet (where did I put that thing, it's probably got a inch of dust on it by now wherever it is, don't get me wrong, it's nice to have it, an accomplishment I'm proud of, but my coming home every night was more of an accomplishment that I value a heck of a lot more.

 

[still learning]

Hello, NO matter in a true class or online? ...Ranks has NO meaning when have to survive on the streets in a confrontations...

When one has to protect oneself? .....color of the belt or rank? ....has nothing to do with your skill levels...(true levels of the skills too)

Key is? ...can you use your skills to survive? ...also one cannot win all the time too...expect losses...

Best is awareness and AVOIDENCE'S...

Aloha, ....rank NO 1 ...when it comes to "still learning" ..Ok somewhere close? ...15,099?

 

[ATC]

That is all well & good & I agree with you but, looking at it from this stand point; who decides and dictates rank? When skill becomes an issue (as it should always be) rank becomes meaningless. We all know that the dojo or gym is nothing compared to real world SD situations.

I see nothing wrong with online or video lessons or testing so long as they are not presented in the "dojo format." Meaning that (and especially at the beginning) the material has to be presented in skill set focus format. I see little difference between video training and schools which teach for 1 or 3 hour a week & expect students to train on there own. If I'm training 12 hours a week and only being corrected for an hour a day...



Form is dictated by function alone, its one of the issues I have with a great deal of TMA people I meet. They focus so much on "form" that they forget function. I'm trained in a few TMAs myself & having studied with instructors who were focused on function more then form, I learn to apply techniques before they became polished training exercises.

If the goal is "form" then yes there may be issues, but that like anything translates to the goal. Good form doesn't always equal good SD skills or even good skills period. Things like form & MA system are meaningless in the heat of battle, "form" is used to teach fundamental concepts. Those concepts are based on the goals of the system & form takes a back seat to other more important concepts. If you are there to learn SD for example, you aren't going to be focused on looking good so much as applying good. If your there to compete depending on the competition form takes a back step to the function of the form if you're talking MMA or Kick Boxing.

Using your running example; there is so much that form doesn't teach but is a tool for teaching.



I agree with you except, that I need someone to tell how to modify a technique. I say this a lot and I'll say it here; part of MA training is learning to think for yourself & that translates to being able to adapt to new situations. This is where I have an issue with MAs, in that focus on style, system or form. Things like form & MA system are meaningless in the heat of battle, "form" is used to teach fundamental concepts & those concepts adjust with needs. You can't teach indefinent variations of a single technique, muchless multiple techniques



I agree, I think any Home Study Course online or no should designed for at least two people in mind which would give someone a chance to spar and a buddy to correct issues in techniques before they become a problem.

Without form there is no function. I have yet to see any beginners have the form to functionally be effective. Until your form is correct enough to be functional you have nothing. I have to disagree with you here. Yes you may be able to hit a target but if your form is crap you just may end up hurting yourself and not your opponent. Punch with the wrist bent and ouch broken wrist. Punch with an incorrect fist and maybe you have a broken hand. Kicking is a whole other animal. Kick wrong and bust your own knee or break a toe.

Sorry no form no function.

 

[just2kicku]

Personally I think online ranking is a joke. It's there for someone too damn lazy to drive to a real instructor. I do think however videos can be a good supplement to real live training as a TOOL, but thats it.

I've put a lot of blood, sweat, black eyes and bloody noses into my art. And these were done to me by people I consider "Ohana" or family. I think if someone wants to get their rank online, then they are a joke as well.

 

[Draven]

Without form there is no function. I have yet to see any beginners have the form to functionally be effective. Until your form is correct enough to be functional you have nothing. I have to disagree with you here. Yes you may be able to hit a target but if your form is crap you just may end up hurting yourself and not your opponent. Punch with the wrist bent and ouch broken wrist. Punch with an incorrect fist and maybe you have a broken hand. Kicking is a whole other animal. Kick wrong and bust your own knee or break a toe.

Sorry no form no function.

I have seen people with perfect form still get beaten by slobs with bad form so what does that mean? As for bad form = may be hurt. Are you joking with me? See by my logic I've never been in a fight were I wasn't hurt happens when you get punched in the face.

Granted I get hit in the face less against someone with no skills but good form in Karate is bad form in Boxing. There are snap kicking styles which consider a stomp kick bad form or hard styles which consider soft deflections bad form. I have seen very few competitions were one or both fighters had "good form."

Take a simple Cross or Reverse Punch (same difference); the core of the punch is found in the rotation of the body and flexing of the knees to drive the body behind the punch. Does it truly matter if someone uses a vertical or horizontal fist to strike with? Does it matter that one person says pivot the reverse/rear foot and someone says no to? Does it matter if the foot work for say boxing teachs a slight variation of the foot work taught in karate? Does it matter that Karate teachs the body to remain upright or that boxing teachs dipping the head to protect the chin? Or does it matter that the knees bend and the waist coils into the strike..?

Form is a byproduct of function and perhaps even a sign of a well functioning action but in application nothing happens in a vaccume and not all things will be the same in aspects leading up to the function...

Personally I think online ranking is a joke. It's there for someone too damn lazy to drive to a real instructor. I do think however videos can be a good supplement to real live training as a TOOL, but thats it.

I've put a lot of blood, sweat, black eyes and bloody noses into my art. And these were done to me by people I consider "Ohana" or family. I think if someone wants to get their rank online, then they are a joke as well.

What if its not being lazy but lack of anything in the area? For example, I have a friend who has a black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu through the home study course (nothing in his area) & a black belt in Dragon Kenpo (home study course) and in his area he has nothing. The closest MA school is a joke & its 50 miles away from him. Driving 100 miles both ways to attend a TKD class designed for little kids just ain't worth it.

 

[ATC]

I have seen people with perfect form still get beaten by slobs with bad form so what does that mean? As for bad form = may be hurt. Are you joking with me? See by my logic I've never been in a fight were I wasn't hurt happens when you get punched in the face.

Granted I get hit in the face less against someone with no skills but good form in Karate is bad form in Boxing. There are snap kicking styles which consider a stomp kick bad form or hard styles which consider soft deflections bad form. I have seen very few competitions were one or both fighters had "good form."

Take a simple Cross or Reverse Punch (same difference); the core of the punch is found in the rotation of the body and flexing of the knees to drive the body behind the punch. Does it truly matter if someone uses a vertical or horizontal fist to strike with? Does it matter that one person says pivot the reverse/rear foot and someone says no to? Does it matter if the foot work for say boxing teachs a slight variation of the foot work taught in karate? Does it matter that Karate teachs the body to remain upright or that boxing teachs dipping the head to protect the chin? Or does it matter that the knees bend and the waist coils into the strike..?

Form is a byproduct of function and perhaps even a sign of a well functioning action but in application nothing happens in a vaccume and not all things will be the same in aspects leading up to the function...

No I don't see the logic. The logic is flawed. The person with good form got beat so not having good form would not have made him win either. He just got beat. He would have gotten beat either way.

You will not convince me that you can be more functional with no form than with form. Take someone that is functional because he is just better than his opponent and give him form and he will be even more functional. That is the purpose of the Martial Arts, to give function through form to those that have neither.

An illiterate person can function in society but teach him to read and he becomes even more functional.

 

[Draven]

No I don't see the logic. The logic is flawed. The person with good form got beat so not having good form would not have made him win either. He just got beat. He would have gotten beat either way.

You will not convince me that you can be more functional with no form than with form. Take someone that is functional because he is just better than his opponent and give him form and he will be even more functional. That is the purpose of the Martial Arts, to give function through form to those that have neither.

An illiterate person can function in society but teach him to read and he becomes even more functional.

Well by your same logic being more functional won't help you either. If a person with good form still loses to a person with bad form then form doesn't matter. The form was bad but at some point form becomes meaningless, its the finger pointing to the moon. If form teachs or transmits knowledge then its done it purpose, a dojo is different from your living room, a bar, a parking lot or even a beach. You may be required to defend yourself on or in either of those enivronments and in each case a variety of factors effect your form.

Since as you said, someone getting beat regardless of form doesn't matter and so "good form" (being the result of practice under the best possible conditions) can't have an effect function being the outcome regardless of conditions.

To better illestrate this, people focused on style as taught by their system of training are always predictable. People trained in multiple styles have the ability to bring more forms to the table. People who understand that you need to transcend form often adjust and adapt to random and unknown conditions without the need to refer to a taught form.

Sure an illiterate person may be able to function better once they learn to read or it could have no effect because they still reference everything by TV and what others tell them. Within the context of that person's life in society being able to read or not may have little to no difference toward their function. The same can be said of form since form may or may not be an aid within the context of situation...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have a friend who has a black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu through the home study course (nothing in his area) & a black belt in Dragon Kenpo (home study course)

How is he compared to a black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu who studied with a real sensei?

How is he compared to a black belt in Kenpo who studied with a real sensei?

Is he now teaching either of these styles?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well by your same logic being more functional won't help you either. If a person with good form still loses to a person with bad form then form doesn't matter. The form was bad but at some point form becomes meaningless, its the finger pointing to the moon. If form teachs or transmits knowledge then its done it purpose, a dojo is different from your living room, a bar, a parking lot or even a beach. You may be required to defend yourself on or in either of those enivronments and in each case a variety of factors effect your form.

Since as you said, someone getting beat regardless of form doesn't matter and so "good form" (being the result of practice under the best possible conditions) can't have an effect function being the outcome regardless of conditions.

To better illestrate this, people focused on style as taught by their system of training are always predictable. People trained in multiple styles have the ability to bring more forms to the table. People who understand that you need to transcend form often adjust and adapt to random and unknown conditions without the need to refer to a taught form.

Sure an illiterate person may be able to function better once they learn to read or it could have no effect because they still reference everything by TV and what others tell them. Within the context of that person's life in society being able to read or not may have little to no difference toward their function. The same can be said of form since form may or may not be an aid within the context of situation...

Since we are talking about online ranking, proficiency in the form and the ability to execute it properly is a requirement in advancement in any style that involves forms. In that context, ATC's original comment about forms is correct.

Form. How do you develope the correct form. In the begining everything about form is unnatural. It feels bad and is not natural to how anyone is use to standing or moving.

In the begining an instructors number on thing he does is to constantly correct form. Bend this, straighten that, adjust this. There is no way any student even likes to hold a simple horse stance, let alone any other of the crazy stance we do. Correct form hurts until you develope the muscles needed to do them correctly.

And I believe that system forms is what he was refering to, not one's 'form' during fighting.

As far as forms translating to effective fighting, that is a different discussion. Some people feel that a person who is not good in forms will not be good fighting within that style. Some feel differently, but it is an issue that is independent of online ranking.

Daniel

 

[still learning]

Hello, How many times you see NON-MA ..in a fight and win?

How many times have you see them "knock-out" a person too>>?

You do not have to be a train MA..to be a fighter...forms are nice..

Have you ever see REAL black belts on the streets fights? ...you will not see ANY FORMS OR or proper stuffs ...many times..

There was Mix-Martial art fights in Kona last year..my formal Sensi 5th Degree in Kempo, fighting a kick boxer..in the first rounds...look like martial artist fighting...

by the third round both so exhausted...look more like a street fight! ....and both look like they knew nothing about MA style of figthing too

Just my 6 cents and one dime here...

Aloha,

To learn how to fight for real? ...One must fight for real..?
Class room stuffs..forms "bad habits" .....

The Real world is different too.....(saw on TV?)