Online Ranking!

[Brian R. VanCise]

More and more I see people going to online ranking as a means of training and gaining rank. Here are my opinions on these ventures:

The Instinctive Edge

 

[still learning]

Hello, Good point above...We all know the best training is to be there in person...and even better...actully fighting on the streets- off course NOT a wise idea too...

Online training, videos,tapes,books and audio ...can be added learning tools...and learning can come from anywhere-seminars also...Just learn "one" thing from each...brings you closer to surviving..

Ranks...is just a title....means nothing on the real streets...

Today...so available online training...one side making money and other end ...gains a belt...and some learning...?

One can learn to speak a different language...thru Online training...faster,better if lives in that country...in person..

Anything for a dollar....lots of it too!

Aloha, ...whats Online?

 

[Xue Sheng]

It would be cheaper and mean just about as much if they just went here to get there rank

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,

I feel that unless from a reputable teacher, or organization, online ranking would never be a good choice. Even then, it would not likely be the best choice.

There are some legitimate teachers that will do a majority of the information passing online but expect to work with you, personally, from time to time. Again, where the instruction (ranking) comes from should be most important. If not from an accredited teacher, or group, the ranking will not be recognized by many, if at all. Who wants to put in all of the hard work necessary to become certified, only to find out it will not recognized or endorsed?

I know that as technology becomes more "advanced", more and more instructional services will be offered "online". It would be to your benefit to shop around for the best "combination" of services available. Cheaper is usually not better, in the long run. Online ranking should be avoided if at all possible. Nothing beats the one on one time with a qualified teacher. Keep in mind that a large amount of one on one time is usually necessary.

My 2 cents, again...

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I'll take it one step further and say that even from a reputable teacher, online rank is worthless. And I'd be calling this guy and asking what the heck he's thinking.

There's only one way I can even imagine this working, but frankly, holograph technology is not yet at the level of realism, or cost effectiveness, that would make online rank even a viable option.

and even then, I'd still choose to go to a PERSON.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have mixed opinions of online or video ranking. On the one hand, the potential for abuse is so great. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of in person classes where you may as well be watching the video, along with tests where everyone passes regardless of their command of the material. So I fail to see where online ranking is any worse than what I see in the bulk of commercial schools.

I will reiterate what I have said about video training and ranking in previous threads. If a student is already well versed in the same art or a similar art, then they really are not learning anything new; just different forms with the same moves worked in or varioations on themes that they are already familiar with.

I am highly skeptical of online training and ranking for brand new students with no MA experience or no experience in an even remotely similar MA. Yes, some people are just plain visual and can pick up anything that they see. The problem is that there is no instructor with them to help them to curb bad habits that they may not realize that they have.

Daniel

 

[still learning]

Hello, Today so many kinds of excercise videos..and they all seem to work...

Will Martial art online videos "work" effective too? ...many of us own "tons" of martial art videos and books....and ..Have found them to be a good source of additional informations..

...as for beginners getting there first lessons and earning a Black Belt strictly thru...video training...? Possible to learn many self-defense techniques that could "work" for them too...

Remember...many Non-Martial artist can learn simple techniques that they can use everyday...

One does not need to be a "Bruce Lee" type to survive!

Most of us have our beliefs....Unless scientific studies prove other wise? ...many will send for these martial videos...

For us? ....best to go to a real class in person...

Aloha,

 

[Nolerama]

Just playing Devil's Advocate:

Time's are changing, and people are becoming better informed through our current media. That being said, learning from a video tutorial with a training partner is certainly a feasible option, rather than seeking out an instructor miles away.

Could current instructors who want their MA knowledge preserved exactly the way it was taught to them be going the way of the dinosaur?

Will instructors be seen as middle management?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just playing Devil's Advocate:

Time's are changing, and people are becoming better informed through our current media. That being said, learning from a video tutorial with a training partner is certainly a feasible option, rather than seeking out an instructor miles away.

Could current instructors who want their MA knowledge preserved exactly the way it was taught to them be going the way of the dinosaur?

Will instructors be seen as middle management?

Do CMA teachers out of China but wrong info in some forms of thier DVDs so thay can tell who actaully learned form them and who learned form a video? Yup.

Could yuo buy a Bagua DVD and get together with a trainng partner and actaully learn Bagua? nope

IMO if instructors who want their MA knowledge preserved exactly the way it was taught to them are going the way of the dinosaur so are martial arts. And those who claim that style "A" is no longer effective without knowing the style will actually be telling the truth.

No good instructor expects a student to do the form or style or application exactly the same as they do. They understand that no 2 people are exactly alike and that things will change. But the basics won't and without those basics you have nothing and for many styles, particularly CMA styles, it is REALLY hard to get the basics by video without a real live instructor

 

[dancingalone]

Xue Sheng, I fully agree the Chinese martial arts would be impossible to learn from scratch from a video, particularly the internal systems. What about a 'simple' hard style taught at a rudimentary level? I'm sure you could teach the basics like a horse stance, bow stance, reverse punch, front kick, side kick, etc by video to the right kind of student.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, I fully agree the Chinese martial arts would be impossible to learn from scratch from a video, particularly the internal systems. What about a 'simple' hard style taught at a rudimentary level? I'm sure you could teach the basics like a horse stance, bow stance, reverse punch, front kick, side kick, etc by video to the right kind of student.

First I am not exactly sure what you mean by a simple hard style but what the heck, I'll tell you what I think and see how much trouble I get in later .

Wing Chun looks pretty simple, but it is not and you really can't learn it from a Video. Shaolin is a hard style and you can't learn that from a video either but you have already said you agree that Chinese martial arts would be impossible to learn from scratch from a video. But some of the rudimentary stuff can really hurt you if you don’t have a teacher, any type of iron palm or strike training for example. It is pretty simple, but do it wrong you can potentially pay for that mistake for the rest of your life. Like I have said before, Sanda trains palm strikes by hitting trees and hitting a tree is sure not all that difficult but without my Sifu there to point out what sound I was listening for and what part of my palm hits the tree (or wall) it would be pretty easy to do some serious damage to your hand

I did TKD years ago and from what I can remember much of what my teacher showing me as basics (not including various slow kicks) I do not think I could have learned that form a DVD, particularly how to kick correctly with power. It looks easy and if all you want to teach is how to properly lift your knee to throw a kick that looks right, maybe you can learn that from a DVD if you go at it slowly at first and not go directly for speed, but then I really don't know it has been years.

But to throw a proper kick with power and not use all your physical force to do it, basically relax, that is something different. I saw my TKD teacher show a person, who had kicks so hard he was ripping the top of kick bags off, how to kick correctly and when he kicked the bag did not rip but it did swing up and hit the ceiling rather hard. He was showing him how to properly apply his power and still be relaxed doing it so when he was older he still had power and would not hurt himself. And there was something that looked much more “painfully penetrating” in the kicks my teacher did as opposed to the guy ripping kick bags. But truth be know I wouldn’t want to be kicked by either of them and they are both still kicking after all these years

So I guess you might get a rudimentary understanding from a DVD but I still stand by a DVD is at best a supplement from training with a real teacher and without that you will never get past the very basic of basics IMO.

 

[ATC]

Well just a simple example of why video learning from scratch is not good.

Every student we have come in and teach a simple middle punch to always punches directly out from the sholder. The lining is incorrect for the punch to be effective or even on target. No matter how many time we say imagine a person right in front of you and punch to that persons middle, they always seem to punch to that imaginary persons sholder not middle. Thus not controlling the middle lining and missing the target.

Now with the above example how can a video teach/fix this when in person we have to constantly walk over to the student and move the fist to the middle after the punch until they start doing it on their own?

Now a person that is already versed in the basics can use a video as a tool to progress to the next level but a new student will always need someone in person there to fix what they don't even understand yet.

 

[Nolerama]

Well just a simple example of why video learning from scratch is not good.

Every student we have come in and teach a simple middle punch to always punches directly out from the sholder. The lining is incorrect for the punch to be effective or even on target. No matter how many time we say imagine a person right in front of you and punch to that persons middle, they always seem to punch to that imaginary persons sholder not middle. Thus not controlling the middle lining and missing the target.

Now with the above example how can a video teach/fix this when in person we have to constantly walk over to the student and move the fist to the middle after the punch until they start doing it on their own?

Now a person that is already versed in the basics can use a video as a tool to progress to the next level but a new student will always need someone in person there to fix what they don't even understand yet.

Again, playing Devil's Advocate...

We get some new people that have trained (for years) in a TMA with some Black Belt and they still don't know how to put all of it together in a functional way.

An instructor can correct form, yes. But is there a difference between an instructor commenting on technique, and a student learning about his body types acclimation to that technique in a live sparring session?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Just playing Devil's Advocate:

Time's are changing, and people are becoming better informed through our current media. That being said, learning from a video tutorial with a training partner is certainly a feasible option, rather than seeking out an instructor miles away.

Could current instructors who want their MA knowledge preserved exactly the way it was taught to them be going the way of the dinosaur?

Will instructors be seen as middle management?

No. Because the 'feeling' and correct stance of a technique cannot be learned by seeing them. That is why after an instructor shows you a technique, he then lets you do it and corrects the mistakes you make.

Without that feedback by someone who has mastered that material, you will deviate further and further away from the original form, into something that vaguely resembles the original, but is functionally incorrect.

Fwiw, In Genbukan, the various instructor books contain lots of intentional mistakes, to make sure the book is only valuable as a training aid, and not a training source. If you have the in-person training, you will know where the book is wrong, and still be able to use the book for guidance.

 

[dancingalone]

First I am not exactly sure what you mean by a simple hard style but what the heck, I'll tell you what I think and see how much trouble I get in later .

I'm talking about generic karate/TKD. The type where one never gets too deep into the hows and whys of the system, but there are universal guidelines for the student to follow like 60% weight on your forward leg in the bow stance, shoulders over hips.

I do not believe you can learn to fight solely by watching a video, but I do think it's possible to learn the fundamental mechanics of a technique this way, to be refined later in class. Of course some will take to learning this way better than others.

Wing Chun looks pretty simple, but it is not and you really can't learn it from a Video. Shaolin is a hard style and you can't learn that from a video either but you have already said you agree that Chinese martial arts would be impossible to learn from scratch from a video. But some of the rudimentary stuff can really hurt you if you don’t have a teacher, any type of iron palm or strike training for example. It is pretty simple, but do it wrong you can potentially pay for that mistake for the rest of your life. Like I have said before, Sanda trains palm strikes by hitting trees and hitting a tree is sure not all that difficult but without my Sifu there to point out what sound I was listening for and what part of my palm hits the tree (or wall) it would be pretty easy to do some serious damage to your hand

Yup. I have dabbled in a few Chinese systems when given the opportunity to by MA friends. None of them can be learned by video - they're simply too rich and there's a subtlety in their practice that can only be seen in person. I practice Okinawan Goju-ryu karate and aikido. Likewise, neither of those can be learned without in-person instruction either.

I did TKD years ago and from what I can remember much of what my teacher showing me as basics (not including various slow kicks) I do not think I could have learned that form a DVD, particularly how to kick correctly with power. It looks easy and if all you want to teach is how to properly lift your knee to throw a kick that looks right, maybe you can learn that from a DVD if you go at it slowly at first and not go directly for speed, but then I really don't know it has been years.

I have a student currently that came to me with no prior experience, but he had learned the front kick, side kick, and roundhouse kick all from an instructional DVD. He doesn't execute them in the flavor of the style I teach, but the kicks were very good for his level. I didn't have to make many real corrections, other than working with him on making full contact and driving through the target rather than stopping the motion on contact.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Again, playing Devil's Advocate...

We get some new people that have trained (for years) in a TMA with some Black Belt and they still don't know how to put all of it together in a functional way.

Then they either had a bad (or lackadaisical) instructor or they never work at or had the opportunity to put it together before

Or the style from which they come is very different form the style that they are no learning in its approach to sparing.

An instructor can correct form, yes. But is there a difference between an instructor commenting on technique, and a student learning about his body types acclimation to that technique in a live sparring session?

Then they are still getting correction form another person, be that an actual instructor or an opponent as instructor.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I do not believe you can learn to fight solely by watching a video, but I do think it's possible to learn the fundamental mechanics of a technique this way, to be refined later in class. Of course some will take to learning this way better than others.

Actually, I don't disagree with this, I do feel it is possible to learn the basic of basics for those that are driven to learn, incredibly dedicated and observant with a high degree of patience and an interest in constant repetition but most do not have these in combination. And even with all that, IMO, you still need a teacher if you truly want to learn any style or how to apply that style properly in a fight.

I have a student currently that came to me with no prior experience, but he had learned the front kick, side kick, and roundhouse kick all from an instructional DVD. He doesn't execute them in the flavor of the style I teach, but the kicks were very good for his level. I didn't have to make many real corrections, other than working with him on making full contact and driving through the target rather than stopping the motion on contact.

Driving through as opposed to stopping at contact, to me, is a rather important correction and he was not getting that from the DVD. His kicks may have been good for his level but his level would not change without your input as an instructor so I am back to DVDs being, at best, a supplement to training with a real teacher.

 

[KELLYG]

Some portions of on line training can be good. You can watch the same technique over and over again. You can pause it, rewind it, and stop and start any time you want to.
But you also miss the comradery of training with someone else. I like the contact with another person, not just to correct errors but to have someone to com- pair your technique with, this is an excellent tool. There have been many times I was able to ask someone, how did you do that, and was helped out.

I like the fact that their is someone present to push you to your limits and beyond. I personally can not do that to myself by myself. Not to mention that in a school type environment you get to know other people that enjoy the same thing that you do!

 

[still learning]

Some portions of on line training can be good. You can watch the same technique over and over again. You can pause it, rewind it, and stop and start any time you want to.
But you also miss the comradery of training with someone else. I like the contact with another person, not just to correct errors but to have someone to com- pair your technique with, this is an excellent tool. There have been many times I was able to ask someone, how did you do that, and was helped out.

I like the fact that their is someone present to push you to your limits and beyond. I personally can not do that to myself by myself. Not to mention that in a school type environment you get to know other people that enjoy the same thing that you do!

Hello, Very good point here! ....Aloha

 

[Draven]

Well I'm gonna play Devils advocate here, what if all rank is worthless? What if it doesn't matter what rank anyone has? I mean education is often used as a word for indocturination and indocturination is nothing but a form of control. Control of what & for what?

We have all seen schools which teach in person and the students and instructors still aren't that good. Whats the difference from having rank from one of those and rank from a video course or online? So again what makes rank important?

In short to quote Nicolo Machiavelli "Titles do not honor men, men honor titles."