Not happy with me

[Xue Sheng]

I am not overly happy with myself right now

I have to admit it has been a while since I have trained applications of anything with a beginner. I have trained applications with my Xingyi Sifu and my Tai Chi Sifu and my Sanda sifu but the only times I have worked on apps with a student recently was when I was teaching them an application in taiji.

My last xingyi class I was working with another student in the class and we were working on an application of Piquan (prior I had always worked with my sifu) and I was having trouble with the application and my sifu noticed and asked me what was going on. I told him that I had a whole other application in my head that I just can’t seem to get around. He asked what and had the other student throw a punch. I just reacted as I was thinking (it was a Taiji app, I am certain it is many other styles as well).

Person throws straight right punch; I do an underhand grab with my right as I step back and turn at the waist slightly and then push the persons back with my other hand. It happened rather automatic, but the other student went flying across the room and almost fell face down. He was visibly upset the sifu was visibly elated and said “Great, we are going to get to that later” and after that I had no problem with the app he were working on, but the other student I was working with was not at all happy, I apologized profusely but it made little difference.

I currently am not happy with myself about this, I am happy the training works but I am not happy about almost slamming someone to the ground in this situation. Even though it was not intentional.

I was in a similar situation early in my CMA training when I did push hands once with a guy from Taiwan that almost ripped me in two. But I was not angry; I just wanted to know what he did. I am also use to my sifus who know how to counter things or what to expect so it is not as dramatic a result or I am the one looking up form the ground when it is all said and done. The guy I was working with was not small, I am a bit taller but he is a weightlifter so he is more muscular than I. I guess I will just have to be more careful next time.

Anyone else run into this before and am I a big jerk and or bully for doing this? I am always rather upset when I see bullies in a martial arts class and now I am wondering if I was one.

 

[wade]

Geeze, other than the fact that I wish I had your technique I would maybe say "Slow down and try the KISS method". You are there to instruct not to impress nor kill the student. Not a bully maybe but some one who needs to learn his own strength and limits. I also have found I tend to over react when some one is big or strong or both. So.......stop it. Go slow and teach right. If their head is in the right place they will know where you are coming from. It not, well.........................go slow and teach right. :ultracool

 

[jks9199]

It doesn't sound to me like you're a bully; it sounds like you don't quite have a handle on your own skills yet.

That's normal as you progress. (I've got a nifty scar on my chin from a white belt who threw a very good kick unexpectedly...) You'll have things that come together and it's hard not to have it happen right; the next step (in a sense) is learning to keep it together, but take that last little something out of it so that you don't dump more force than you intend.

I've got to really watch myself. I'm a fair sized guy, and I'm respectably strong. Often, stronger than I realize... I also have (if I do say so myself, I'll humbly add... :wink pretty good technique. Unfortunately, I've occasionally used more power than I intend when I'm working with students. Make sure they're okay, apologize, be damn sure it doesn't happen again right away, and move on...

I'm a big fan of Dave Lowry's columns (to the point that I've bought issues of Black Belt solely for the column on occasion). In one of them, he relates a story about how one of his sensei had hit him, bloodying his lip. The sensei apologized, saying "My bad" (or something to that effect) and they moved on. Lowry didn't understand the attitude some students today have that they aren't supposed to occasionally be struck or even sometimes injured in training... (Now I'm going to have to go find that article...)

 

[morph4me]

The guy may have felt that you went a little to hard on him, you apologized now let it go. The fact that it was unintentional, and that you are feeling bad about it shows that you aren't a bully. The fact that your sifu was elated, shows that he feels you're getting the hang of it. You reacted without thinking, isn't that the response that you're training for? Take a deep breath, and let it go, it happens. Sounds you have a very powerful technique, be proud of it, not guilty about it.

 

[Drac]

Don't beat yourself up..These things happen...

 

[tshadowchaser]

I know you did not mean to move the student in the way you did, but it dose show that you have a firm grasp of that technique and that you can do it effortlessly so be happy about that. If the other student holds a grudge about it he has much to learn and a long way to go in his learning. These things happen once in a while when someone is reaching a new level of training

 

[bydand]

I know you did not mean to move the student in the way you did, but it dose show that you have a firm grasp of that technique and that you can do it effortlessly so be happy about that. If the other student holds a grudge about it he has much to learn and a long way to go in his learning. These things happen once in a while when someone is reaching a new level of training

Agree 100% with the post above. I know I have been on both ends of that learning scale, no need to feel bad about it. The other student needs to let it go.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Geeze, other than the fact that I wish I had your technique I would maybe say "Slow down and try the KISS method". You are there to instruct not to impress nor kill the student. Not a bully maybe but some one who needs to learn his own strength and limits. I also have found I tend to over react when some one is big or strong or both. So.......stop it. Go slow and teach right. If their head is in the right place they will know where you are coming from. It not, well.........................go slow and teach right. :ultracool

Thank you, and I will be more careful but I wasn't teaching, I am not at that level in Xingyi (I have only been back in xingyi for a few months). And when I teach it is a tai chi (12 years there) and I have a whole different mind set when it comes to teaching, I have never thrown a student like that when I was teaching.

The problem there was I was in a Xingyi class and thinking of a tai chi application and being in a mind set of a student not a teacher I apparently do not know my own strength in technique, and the student part of me says well hey it worked that is great but the teacher side of me says whoa sparky you just went to far.

Wade, I truly do mean it when I say thank you.

I Will respond to all but I have to go my youngest is crying for daddy

 

[exile]

Agree 100% with the post above. I know I have been on both ends of that learning scale, no need to feel bad about it. The other student needs to let it go.

Ditto. Remember, XS, it's a martial art—the use of force, and implicitly, violence, is part of it. You, as a student, are supposed to learn to do exactly what you did—respond automatically and effectively. You did, which was why your sifu was so happy: you got it, and very little makes an instructor happier. (Am grading midterms now, and am having my face rubbed in the other side—the fact that very little makes an instructor unhappier than a student who just doesn't get it.)

If I were the student you were training with, I don't think that—once I'd heard your explanation—I'd harbor any resentment or sense of having been treated badly. What I'd feel, more likely, is envy of your abilities, and ambition to reach a skill level where I could do something like that.

 

[tshadowchaser]

You have learned from the experence
Is that not why we all are in the arts (to learn)
I am sure the next time you do the technique you will remember what happened this time and use a little more control

 

[Jade Tigress]

Xue, you're definitely not being a jerk or a bully and I think the other student responded poorly. He was probably embarrassed, but that's no excuse for holding a *grudge* after receiving an apology. And the fact that your sifu was not upset should ease your discomfort over the situation as well. Let me put something out there that came to mind while reading this...and for the record, I have been on the receiving end of of an accidental *hard* techinique. You have been training for a long time...you are training arts that develop Chi. Couldn't it be possible that this was chi? You didn't feel you used excessive force even though you reacted naturally. Just a thought. In any case, don't beat yourself up over it!

 

[Flatlander]

Don't beat yourself up..These things happen...

If you do, at least forgive yourself for it.... ROFL!

 

[crushing]

Sounds like the technique worked! You meant no harm and other party should get over it. Besides, when teacher is elated with your technique, you should be happy with it.

I would be concerned that you may hold back on techniques too much when you become so worried about offending. I'm not even sure an apology is even in order in the situation. I used to apologize for techniques that 'worked', but a fellow student (we are both 5th gup in the art we work together, but he holds a 2nd dan in another) told me to stop apologizing for what works. We knew what we signed up for when joining the class, and that we wouldn't purposefully try to injure one another.

Again, when teacher is elated, I am happy. That is the major thing I would take from this 'incident'.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It doesn't sound to me like you're a bully; it sounds like you don't quite have a handle on your own skills
yet.

That's normal as you progress. (I've got a nifty scar on my chin from a white belt who threw a very good kick unexpectedly...) You'll
have things that come together and it's hard not to have it happen right; the next step (in a sense) is learning to keep it together,
but take that last little something out of it so that you don't dump more force than you intend.

I've got to really watch myself. I'm a fair sized guy, and I'm respectably strong. Often, stronger than I realize... I also have (if I do say
so myself, I'll humbly add... ) pretty good technique. Unfortunately, I've occasionally used more power than I intend when I'm
working with students. Make sure they're okay, apologize, be damn sure it doesn't happen again right away, and move on...

I'm a big fan of Dave Lowry's columns (to the point that I've bought issues of Black Belt solely for the column on occasion). In one
of them, he relates a story about how one of his sensei had hit him, bloodying his lip. The sensei apologized, saying "My bad" (or
something to that effect) and they moved on. Lowry didn't understand the attitude some students today have that they aren't
supposed to occasionally be struck or even sometimes injured in training... (Now I'm going to have to go find that article...)

My Xingyi Sifu beat the living daylights out of me a couple weeks ago in applications and I did not complain nor did he apologize, nor did I expect one, It is part of the game, at least to me, I am just not sure how long the other guy has bee at this. And I am a student in Xingyi not a teacher, I am however regularly used by my Xingyi Sifu to teach applications, I attack and he does what he wants us to do. I will say I am very happy when the class catches on quick... I am not found of repeat performances.

However I am old school MA and back when I started there were no pads, gloves or even mats used in my first MA, Jujitsu so I am use to the bumps and bruises.

The guy may have felt that you went a little to hard on him, you apologized now let it go. The fact that it
was unintentional, and that you are feeling bad about it shows that you aren't a bully. The fact that your sifu was elated, shows that
he feels you're getting the hang of it. You reacted without thinking, isn't that the response that you're training for? Take a deep
breath, and let it go, it happens. Sounds you have a very powerful technique, be proud of it, not guilty about it.

Thanks. And I think I have to not think Taiji when I am in Xingyi class too.

Don't beat yourself up..These things happen...

Thanks

I know you did not mean to move the student in the way you did, but it dose show that you have a
firm grasp of that technique and that you can do it effortlessly so be happy about that. If the other student holds a grudge about it
he has much to learn and a long way to go in his learning. These things happen once in a while when someone is reaching a new
level of training

Thanks. I have been on the recieving end of this more than once and I never have gotten upset, but that is just me.

Agree 100% with the post above. I know I have been on both ends of that learning scale, no need to feel
bad about it. The other student needs to let it go.

Thanks

Ditto. Remember, XS, it's a martial art—the use of force, and implicitly, violence, is part of it. You, as a student,
are supposed to learn to do exactly what you did—respond automatically and effectively. You did, which was why your sifu was so
happy: you got it, and very little makes an instructor happier. (Am grading midterms now, and am having my face rubbed in the
other side—the fact that very little makes an instructor unhappier than a student who just doesn't get it.)

If I were the student you were training with, I don't think that—once I'd heard your explanation—I'd harbor any resentment or sense
of having been treated badly. What I'd feel, more likely, is envy of your abilities, and ambition to reach a skill level where I could do
something like that.

Thanks and in the years I have been training I have been thrown, slammed, hit, kick, punched, broken, etc (as we all have) and I have not gotten mad about it yet, as I said I generally want to know what they did. But I am a bit crazy when it comes to MA (See any tree beating post) so that is just me not everybody so I am still not to happy with throwing the guy across the room, but I do see what everyone is saying and I do appreciate it.

You have learned from the experence
Is that not why we all are in the arts (to learn)
I am sure the next time you do the technique you will remember what happened this time and use a little more control

True, thanks

Xue, you're definitely not being a jerk or a bully and I think the other student responded poorly. He
was probably embarrassed, but that's no excuse for holding a *grudge* after receiving an apology. And the fact that your sifu was
not upset should ease your discomfort over the situation as well. Let me put something out there that came to mind while reading
this...and for the record, I have been on the receiving end of of an accidental *hard* techinique. You have been training for a long
time...you are training arts that develop Chi. Couldn't it be possible that this was chi? You didn't feel you used excessive force even
though you reacted naturally. Just a thought. In any case, don't beat yourself up over it!

Thanks. Could be I will have to think about that, to be honest I felt almost no force.

If you do, at least forgive yourself for it.... ROFL!

OK now I have a quandary, if I do beat myself up I then have to forgive myself???? But I will then be angry with me and want to beat me up for beating me up to get even..... OH NO this is an endless circle of revenge now... what have I gotten my self into?

Thank you to all, it does help. :asian:


After much thought I have to conclude that it has been awhile since I have worked on applications of anything that I am learning with someone other that my Sifus. My Taiji Sifu works on apps with me, I've been there 12 years so that is just the way it is now. My Sanda Sifu dose the same but I am his only student and I have not yet been able to throw a tree.. or him. And up until this last class my Xingyi Sifu has been working with me as well, based on my past experience, even though I have continually told him I am fine with being just a beginner, because I am at Xingyi.

So it has not really been a concern before or at least not for a long time. If I get something correct they (my sifus) generally do not go far and counter rather well. I have, in 12 years, only once in push hands bested my Sifu and I was so shocked at that I did not follow and he...well... did, and then told me what I should have done.

I did have something similar to this happen before but that was with someone that claimed years of experience in push hands that I found out very quickly was not true. But it was only after they had been launched and were laying on the floor, and although I felt bad about it I still thought they had misrepresented themselves so they pretty much walked into it. But in this case it was another student and I am trying very hard to be a student in Xingyi and I had this application stuck in my head that was blocking what my Sifu was trying to get me to do and when he said, ok what is it, I just went with the flow and you know the result.

I know in MA you are going to get hurt, and from time to time and look pretty silly too, it is just part of the training but I really should have been a bit more careful and the next time I will be. We do applications every single class in Xingyi, standing practice, forms work and then applications and I will have to just go easy. And just for the record when I taught and when I teach in my Sifu's Taiji class I have never ever thrown a student like that, if that were the case I would have to consider not teaching.

There was a good friend of mine in this class up until last class, his work schedule changed so it was his last class actually, and he an I have trained together for years (generally in different styles he tends towards JMA and I am CMA) and thrown each other around pretty hard form time to time and he saw nothing wrong with what happened either, but he and I both have been at this for a long time and I am not sure how long the guy I was doing apps with has been at this. I will see next class if he is still upset and go from there.

Again thanks for all the responses they have helped.

 

[jks9199]

I know in MA you are going to get hurt, and from time to time and look pretty silly too, it is just part of the training but I really should have been a bit more careful and the next time I will be. We do applications every single class in Xingyi, standing practice, forms work and then applications and I will have to just go easy. And just for the record when I taught and when I teach in my Sifu's Taiji class I have never ever thrown a student like that, if that were the case I would have to consider not teaching.

It's something that sometimes happens, no matter how careful you are. A student doesn't quite do what they're supposed to as you're demonstrating, or working with them... Or you just run across that extra sensitive person that a light touch brings tears... The question becomes how often does it happen, and how do you respond. If it happens frequently... That's a problem. If it happens once in a while? Maybe not. If you apologize, and (after making sure no one's hurt!), move on... No problem. If you want to brag about knocking a student out or are hurting people to show off... Big problem. But I think you already know all of that!

There was a good friend of mine in this class up until last class, his work schedule changed so it was his last class actually, and he an I have trained together for years (generally in different styles he tends towards JMA and I am CMA) and thrown each other around pretty hard form time to time and he saw nothing wrong with what happened either, but he and I both have been at this for a long time and I am not sure how long the guy I was doing apps with has been at this. I will see next class if he is still upset and go from there.

Again thanks for all the responses they have helped.

If he's still upset... This might just be a teaching moment. He needs to understand that there's the possibility of injury in any realistic training. What was he upset about, any way? I just re-read the original post; he got pushed. He wasn't hurt. He didn't even fall down...

I've gotta suspect that what was hurt was his ego... And that it just may have needed the bruise.

 

[pstarr]

Yes, this kind of thing happens from time to time, especially if the attack is rather sudden...your body simple reacts with what it knows best. It's actually a very positive sign but it can make you feel like a real jerk for a while.

Don't let it. It's simply a signpost along the path. You're doing fine!

:uhyeah: