MMA vs TMA

[Steve]

I stand by my comment on loyalty. You may disagree, and have examples in your area, but my experiance has not been the same as yours. Firstly You called me out for leaving and feeling conflicted. You wanna know why i left big shot, fine ill tell you. I left becuase i am in it for a hobby and fitness and to learn some self defense. I was not the lowest skilled but not any were near the top of our gym.

We have had a number of other hobby guys come in and leave after only a short while. We had one guy, a TKD WTF black belt that stuck around. He made the near perfect sparring partner for me. He was different then me, i was a infighter, he was obviously a outfighter. I learned much from him. I Was at the point in my striking training and flexibility that there was no more technical things for me to learn. Things like the blocks and the strikes, i had been shown and taught them all, as far as my flexibility would allow. The only things left were coaches more fancy kicks but they were not critical or even needed.

I was at the point were the only way i could keep learning my striking skill set for this school was in sparring. Now for months and months i had my tkd bb parnter, i learned much about closing the gap on a guy who loves to spam front kicks and other linear kicks to keep me at range. He got much needed practice on using his hands and defending himself up close. It was funny for me at the time. He had at least 4 years martial arts experiance on me, yet in sparring we were evenly matched.

Then came the day, he had to leave. He got a new job out of state and had to leave immediately. I dont blame him it nearly doubled his then current salary.
This was a problem for me, seeing as everyone else there was a veteran fighter with 3+ years mma experiance on me, and they all were getting ready for a fight.

I remember my last sparring match there, it was humiliating. It was the reason i quit. It was a round robin sparring session. We had a couple of guys come that had trained there previously and had come back to train more after some time off. The session also included sparring with the assistant coach, and my final sparring session was with the head coach. I had in all maybe a hour of sparring that day..

I steped up and it seamed as if all my training got tossed out the window. I just could not react fast enough. I felt like a rank newb all over again. I could not make any of my defenses work against any of them. I got hit way more then i was used to, as my defense was spot on previously. I was getting hit harder then i was used to, but i think i may have been going harder then i should have..

It was like my defense skills all got tossed, nothing was working, and they could hit me at will. It was so humiliating, i am better then this, i told my self. I felt like a mobile punching bag. I dont know why all my skills evaporated during that time, I have a feeling it was just the disparity of skill between me and them.

I stayed over to train more with head coach that day, and he wanted to go 3 more rounds. So we did, and it was even worse then the last session. I literally could not touch him, he was so fast. He didnt even have to effect a defense on me, he was so quick. I think i hit him one time, with a leg kick, but that was it.. When the session was over, he told me i was doing just fine. But i was nearly in tears, i was so upset. I didnt cry or anything but man i was close.. I felt like a failure, so totally a failure.... Like everything i did up till that point was a waste of time.

I am still conflicted because my coach would tell me to clean the sand out of my xxxxxx and to keep sparring. So knowing that i let him down i feel like a failure. I feel i failed to man up and take the harder sparring and enjoy it. I made the decision to leave because i felt i was no longer learning anything with regards to my striking.

They no longer have any hobby guys at that gym, only competing fighters, one of which is close to breaking into the big leagues. They were so fit, so amazingly confident, that is what i wanted so badly for my self. I left because i failed my self.. Up till recently i blamed it on taking a hard shot that rocked me, but i know that was just a excuse i made up to my self, to feel better. It did not work.

During my time there i saw many come and go, some were hobby guys others were competing fighters. Only the core group stayed, which was a small one. The rest had no loyalty at all..

Whoa, back up. Take a deep breath. I called you out for making baseless presumptions about MMA athletes and TMA athletes. We judge ourselves based upon our intent, but judge others based upon their actions. In other words, you know you were conflicted but presume that MMA athletes are not because you have a bias.

As for whether you were truly conflicted or not, believe me, I don't care at all. Really. I have no reason to doubt you, and don't honestly care to know the details.

Regarding whether or not you will continue to have an unfounded and easily disproven bias against people who train in styles outside of your own, such as MMA, that's fine too. They're your hangups and you're entitled to have them. We all do.

But if you're interested in looking objectively at the situation, read Xue Sheng's post. People are people, and there is loyalty and disloyalty in any activity. If you look at MMA athletes from the elite levels all the way down, you will quickly find that many people train with the same guys throughout their careers. And those who do change camps don't do it lightly. It's a big deal when an elite MMA athlete moves from one camp to another precisely because it doesn't happen all that often.

And at lower levels, I can tell you that the men and women training in gyms are usually fiercely loyal to their teams. The nature of the training creates a strong bond.

Point isn't that MMA is better or worse than TMA. It's to point out that you're taking your own myopic beliefs and applying them to hundreds of thousands of martial artists throughout the world. As though your own experiences (true or not) are representative of an entire style.

 

[martial sparrer]

we are forgetting that martial artists are martial artists period......martial artists have a very unique way of seeing the world and dealing with it. the essence of being a martial artist is whats the most important thing for us to discover. I hate it when threads get into being rude......all martial artists are on the same team! enjoy and love!

 

[Steve]

we are forgetting that martial artists are martial artists period......martial artists have a very unique way of seeing the world and dealing with it. the essence of being a martial artist is whats the most important thing for us to discover. I hate it when threads get into being rude......all martial artists are on the same team! enjoy and love!

If I'm the person being rude, I apologize. Discourtesy wasn't my intention.

 

[James Kovacich]

½ an hour seems short to me too. In order to get anywhereyou could only practice one or two things to get any kind of consistency perclass, but maybe that is what they do. Maybe they feel too much would overwhelmthe student.
Classes at my dojo run 45 minutes long. But we haveclasses 5 days a week plus an additional 2 hour aikido class on Fridays. So abrand new person who attends all the classes he or she can at that level couldattend all our fundamentals classes and aikido classes which ends up being 7hours of training per week, which is a lot for most people (not necessarily youor me though). Other classes focus on much needed other aspects of our art thatother students need to practice.


I had days like that back when I was trying to learnkarate and I kept losing at tournaments. My teacher at the time seemed to haveno interest in helping me actually improve. Luckily my current teacher seemsdedicated to our improvement.
But did you ever lay out your concerns to your coach?Sometimes we think we are doing something correctly and it turns out we aren’tand only when the issues are brought up specifically will an instructor fixthose issues.
Anyways, I hope things are going better for you now.

Thats something how my Eskrima does it too. Except his 1hr class is twice a week, with a 2 hr class on Saturday mornings and once a month on a Sunday a 3-4 hr class. By the way his 1 hr class is intensive.

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[James Kovacich]

If I'm the person being rude, I apologize. Discourtesy wasn't my intention.

I didn't read it that way.

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[martial sparrer]

I wasn't directing the rudeness comment to anyone in particular.....all martial artists either mma or tma dedicate their lives to this thing we are all trying to do....we are all trying this martial arts thing because we have faith in how absolutely positive for human beings it is.....that said....mma guys should truly read some of the great writers of martial arts....for gaining wisdom for the mind, strength of character etc.....we all know how important the mental side of martial arts is....

 

[Kframe]

Steve, I want to apologize. I did not mean to come unglued at you. Im sorry. I honestly did not know how hard my feelings were on this subject till I actually wrote how I felt down.. I am apparently very hurt and upset about leaving, and have been living in denial. If what I witnessed was more of a outlier in mma attendance, I do not understand why so many people came and went. I would get to know someone new and then they would leave..

My question is, They have a guy, who is probably about 1-2 years of regional fights before we see him in the big time mma scene. He is a regional pro, basicly getting paid chump change, and currently is undefeated with all 1st round KO's. Barring any freak accidents, or stuff of that nature, if he actually does make it to the national scene, do you think he will stay at the tiny little local gym that he currently attends? I just find that hard to believe, at that level he will have training paid for by sponsors, and why would he stay in little old Ft.Wayne?

 

[Cyriacus]

Steve, I want to apologize. I did not mean to come unglued at you. Im sorry. I honestly did not know how hard my feelings were on this subject till I actually wrote how I felt down.. I am apparently very hurt and upset about leaving, and have been living in denial. If what I witnessed was more of a outlier in mma attendance, I do not understand why so many people came and went. I would get to know someone new and then they would leave..

My question is, They have a guy, who is probably about 1-2 years of regional fights before we see him in the big time mma scene. He is a regional pro, basicly getting paid chump change, and currently is undefeated with all 1st round KO's. Barring any freak accidents, or stuff of that nature, if he actually does make it to the national scene, do you think he will stay at the tiny little local gym that he currently attends? I just find that hard to believe, at that level he will have training paid for by sponsors, and why would he stay in little old Ft.Wayne?

Quick question: Isnt the emphasis here on 'went'? They could have been leaving because the training was subpar. Without a point of reference, you couldnt know.

For your question, high up MMA fighters need training thats going to get them through what theyre going to do. Not many small places offer that. Would you have more faith in a small town sheriff, or an inner city tactical officer who used to be a small town sheriff, to get you out of a hostage situation (negotiation wise)?

 

[Steve]

Steve, I want to apologize. I did not mean to come unglued at you. Im sorry. I honestly did not know how hard my feelings were on this subject till I actually wrote how I felt down.. I am apparently very hurt and upset about leaving, and have been living in denial. If what I witnessed was more of a outlier in mma attendance, I do not understand why so many people came and went. I would get to know someone new and then they would leave..

My question is, They have a guy, who is probably about 1-2 years of regional fights before we see him in the big time mma scene. He is a regional pro, basicly getting paid chump change, and currently is undefeated with all 1st round KO's. Barring any freak accidents, or stuff of that nature, if he actually does make it to the national scene, do you think he will stay at the tiny little local gym that he currently attends? I just find that hard to believe, at that level he will have training paid for by sponsors, and why would he stay in little old Ft.Wayne?

I took no offense. If you're good, I'm good

Regarding the school, it could be the quality of the training it any number if things.

As for the guy and his school, it really depends. Some small schools have the tools to take a guy as far as he wants. Some don't.

It's really the same in any art. If you're the biggest fish in the pond, you aren't growing as an athlete.

If I remember, I'll post a more complete response when I have a keyboard.

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[Xue Sheng]

Oh man…this is absolutely pathetic…an MMA vs TMA thread and everyone is apologizing and friendly….. for crying out loud people if RoninPimp where here he'd have something to say about this... oh wait...he can't be here anymore :uhyeah: Actually that is a good thing


Yup….it is an old reference to a long gone not missed poster of many a TMA vs MMA knock down dragout

 

[Kframe]

Back to tma vs mma.. When it comes to tma as a striking system, I think it just takes a huge time investment. From what I have learned and my brief conversations with the local tma place that was not a mcdojo, you don't actually start learning the real ins and outs of the art till black belt and higher. Which can be a long time. Sure for a kid with there whole life ahead of them there is time to get to 3-4bb or higher and still have life left to learn a grappling art and compete with the possibility of UFC dreams.

Im 31 right now. If I were to drop everything, based on the numbers I was given by the TKD instructor I talked to, it would take me 6-8 years to be a at a level of competency to actually use tkd in MMA as a striking system. That puts me at 39, then I have to not only keep my tkd training up, but then go train a grappling art. Which can take just as long if not longer to get competency in. Which puts me mid 40's. Which is to late to do anything meaningful mma wise. By then my body will be on the decline..

I don't know why, but the jist im getting from that tkd instructor is you don't actually start learning tma till you hit black belt. Then all the real application stuff starts.. It just feels as if it takes to long, why must it take 8 years to actually be proficient in your art?

This is kinda related but I think the sport side of TMA may be doing the rest of the art a disservice. It seams all the tma guys I have sparred were all sport guys. None of them seamed prepared for real hits, and follow up attacks and close pressure. I had this convo on Tradtalk and they pointed out that people in non diluted traditional arts don't spar or train like the sporter guys do. I didn't know what they ment till I saw a video on the main admins blog showing sparring. I was surprised to see that it looks a lot like the kind of sparring I do. Minus throws and ground. Sure the contact was light but there was a huge focus on technique. With a the focus of there training staying in the "melee range" as they call it. That range to far for clinch but to close for most kicks..

Forgot to say this. The only reason that mma striking as a system takes a short time to learn, is because it is not a deep system. Just a few techniques applied in a hundred different ways. Not really a complete system, there are holes, that I am attempting to fill. God I hate being old, time is my enemy now..

Its the sporter guys, running around thinking they can stand up to a mma guy, that is giving the tma a bad rap in some circles. Truthfully I wish both sides would stop hating and start cross training with open arms. I have taken advice from a high ranking karateka that I email occasionaly and used the techniques he taught me in my mma sparring. Things like the middle and lower block, and the soto uke(inside body block for you tkd people, tho I use my hammer fist not my forearm) to great effect when coupled with my boxing defenses.

I found a good tma school, but at my age, and with my goals, I cant go train there, despite wanting to. I just don't have the time, as a tma requires full attention, and I have to learn and keep training my grappling as it is to important to my goals.

 

[grumpywolfman]

Oh man…this is absolutely pathetic…an MMA vs TMA thread and everyone is apologizing and friendly….. for crying out loud people if RoninPimp where here he'd have something to say about this... oh wait...he can't be here anymore :uhyeah: Actually that is a good thing


Yup….it is an old reference to a long gone not missed poster of many a TMA vs MMA knock down dragout

This interview (from YouTube) with Joe Rogan might help warm things up Xue

[video=youtube_share;D9L5vr3HKdE]http://youtu.be/D9L5vr3HKdE[/video]

 

[grumpywolfman]

I am a very strong believer that it's not the art but the person using it. Still, whenever there's a video of Kung Fu/Aikido/Wing Chun etc on Youtube, it immediately becomes a comment war between those who like it and those who say that none of that stuff works and real fighters are only MMA fighters.

I was wondering if this forum's MMA fans share the same distaste/mistrust/skepticism about the combat effectiveness of more traditional arts in real life situations.

In my opinion, MMA has brought attention to TMA to look beyond the limitations of a single system and the patterned responses associated within it.

"To fit in with an opponent one needs direct perception. There is no direct perception where there is resistance, a "this is the only way" attitude. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. When he acts, he is translating every living moment in terms of the old. If any style teaches you a method of fighting, then you might be able to fight according to the limit of that method, but that is not actually fighting. Truth is relationship with the opponent; constantly moving, living, never static." ~ Bruce Lee (Tao of Jeet Kune Do)

 

[Chris Parker]

I get where you're coming from, but, well, no. As has been mentioned in this thread, people are people, martial artists or not.

we are forgetting that martial artists are martial artists period......martial artists have a very unique way of seeing the world and dealing with it. the essence of being a martial artist is whats the most important thing for us to discover. I hate it when threads get into being rude......all martial artists are on the same team! enjoy and love!

Actually, no, martial artists don't have a unique way of seeing the world and dealing with it. Some might, but they're going to be in the extreme minority. Nor is "the essence of being a martial artists" the most important thing for most practitioners of various styles. And when it comes to "all martial artists are on the same team"... uh, way off base there! Just look at the political arguments in the various forms... either system versus system, or even within a single system. Love? Okay... but what I do has little to do with that... It's more about just killing the other guy.

I wasn't directing the rudeness comment to anyone in particular.....all martial artists either mma or tma dedicate their lives to this thing we are all trying to do....we are all trying this martial arts thing because we have faith in how absolutely positive for human beings it is.....that said....mma guys should truly read some of the great writers of martial arts....for gaining wisdom for the mind, strength of character etc.....we all know how important the mental side of martial arts is....

And, again, this is a romantic ideal, but is very, very far from reality. Not all martial artists, nor MMA athletes, "dedicate their lives" to it... as said, it's a hobby for many, if not most. Each practitioner has their own reasons for training as well... the idea that everyone trains because of some "faith in how positive" it is is also incorrect... some will train because they want to know how to defend themselves, others because of an interest (historical), or a fascination with a culture, or just because it's fun... or because a friend does it, and they get caught up. The same goes for the idea of an emphasis on the mental side.

What I'm saying is that it's rather dangerous, and unrealistic, to apply your personal interpretations and beliefs to all martial artists (if I'm blunt, at this point, you are still to actually start martial arts training properly... so I'd be incredibly hesitant to state anything about what it's like, or what's important in training and study), as it just doesn't work that way. I'm not wanting to discourage you, just give you an insight into the reality of what you're saying.

To the topic, what the argument is really about is training methodologies... we get the same thing with the arguments from people like Matt Thornton and his "aliveness" concept versus kata-based training. And, really, that comes down to the preference of the system and the practitioner themselves. But as to any distrust? Nah... but there is a huge amount of misunderstanding about the training methods used.

 

[Cirdan]

Oh man…this is absolutely pathetic…an MMA vs TMA thread and everyone is apologizing and friendly….. for crying out loud people if RoninPimp where here he'd have something to say about this... oh wait...he can't be here anymore :uhyeah: Actually that is a good thing


Yup….it is an old reference to a long gone not missed poster of many a TMA vs MMA knock down dragout

Things are not what they were Xue. In the old days, a thread this long on mma vs tma would result in at least a few bans, some nervous breakdowns, probably an investigation into a person`s past.. and a backyard duel or two to "settle things"

 

[K-man]

Things are not what they were Xue. In the old days, a thread this long on mma vs tma would result in at least a few bans, some nervous breakdowns, probably an investigation into a person`s past.. and a backyard duel or two to "settle things"

Does this mean that we just a bunch of SNAGs? :ultracool

 

[Cirdan]

Does this mean that we just a bunch of SNAGs? :ultracool

We are... sausages?? (had to look in the aussie dictionary)

Anyway I think everyone has realized Viking Berzerker Artz are superior so no point in arguing any more. :viking1:

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, no, I don't think that was the vernacular that K-Man was meaning... in the 90's, the term "SNAG" was used to mean a "sensitive new-age guy"... in other words, largely a wimp who was far more in touch with his feminine side than his masculine. It later turned into the whole metrosexual thing...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Things are not what they were Xue. In the old days, a thread this long on mma vs tma would result in at least a few bans, some nervous breakdowns, probably an investigation into a person`s past.. and a backyard duel or two to "settle things"

And don't forget the name calling... oh and blood...lots and lots of blood

 

[Aiki Lee]

Oh man…this isabsolutely pathetic…an MMA vs TMA thread and everyone is apologizing andfriendly…..