MMA vs TMA

[rframe]

As a mma person I don't have to many issues with tma. The issues I do have, stem from the fact that, of the few TMA I have briefly trained, the training was way to easy.... Now I know I have posted in kata threads before I have learned much, about the nature of it, but the way some styles do kata is still odd to me. The mma in me thinks that instead of going through a set pattern that may or may not actually teach you anything, why not spend that time with a partner repping the moves your art contains?

I tend to fall in between on this. I primarily train in a TMA (we definitely sweat) but I also like MMA and think the live and wider spectrum nature it exposes can bring a whole lot of "reality" to martial arts training. When you are really getting punched, kicked, and taken to the ground... the stress level is much higher and you learn to think on your feet and control the adrenal response in a way that lighter and/or rehearsed sparring doesnt do... you also learn the importance of good basics and efficiency. Quite a bit of TMA training is theoretical and light-medium cooperative contact, and that "may" lead to some stuff getting taught and carried on that is pretty much nonsense.

I also think kata is very valuable, however I think the way some TMA schools teach them without exposing students to realistic bunkai and related flow drills is a bad idea. Students should have a good idea of the actual application of the kata they are practicing and have experience drilling some of the moves against others. Then you can take this back to the kata practice and visualize the attack while also working to perfect some of the kihon form.

Many of the best MMA practitioners have long histories and respect for the traditional arts. They need not be set against each other, but are actually great compliments.

 

[Drose427]

I agree that Katas, Hyung, forms, whatever you call them are important. But I also believe it's important that the students are taught what the moves are and the practical applications. When my Sah Bum Nim teaches a form, he explains what the move is. In advanced class, we will physically practice the applications from a self defense standpoint. I believe it's important to know and practice the application, if not,youre missing out on an important part of your forms.

 

[James Kovacich]

ITs the only places in town that follow the TMA format. The only other places are mma places, both of which are 2+ hour work outs.

That does not answer the question. Maybe I should have worded it more clearly. A McDojo can be a TMA but there is a huge differance between a good TMA school and a McDojo. The schools you decsribed seem McDojoish to me.

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[Xue Sheng]

I don't quite get this, and maybe it is my TCMA background

TCMA is a little time with your sifu and a lot of time training on your own so I don't understand the need for hours and hours training at a school. They give you the stuff to work on and then you need to go work on it..... and my Sanda sifu was no different... shows me some kicks, has me do them, and then go train kicks, do 100 a day, each leg, for a couple of weeks. GO back and show him and he says...no good, go train more....a week later he says good.... I'm shown more stuff.... I don't get the need to be at a school a lot in order to be effective....train right and train often...that is all.

 

[chinto]

I agree that Katas, Hyung, forms, whatever you call them are important. But I also believe it's important that the students are taught what the moves are and the practical applications. When my Sah Bum Nim teaches a form, he explains what the move is. In advanced class, we will physically practice the applications from a self defense standpoint. I believe it's important to know and practice the application, if not,youre missing out on an important part of your forms.

in both styles of Shorin Ryu I study we do bunkai a lot! and after about 5th kyu you are expected to find some of the not so obvious techniques for each movement. then demonstrate them. this is not unusual in a good dojo from what I have found.

 

[K-man]

As a mma person I don't have to many issues with tma. The issues I do have, stem from the fact that, of the few TMA I have briefly trained, the training was way to easy. I never broke a sweat at all. Which considering this was a very well respected shorin ryu karate place I was kinda surprised and let down. Now I know I have posted in kata threads before I have learned much, about the nature of it, but the way some styles do kata is still odd to me. The mma in me thinks that instead of going through a set pattern that may or may not actually teach you anything, why not spend that time with a partner repping the moves your art contains? How much better would the skill of karate practitioners be if they spent more time with a partner and trainer actually repping the moves. But that is my issue with TMA. In a nutshell, I think they train to easy, and waste time not repping the actual moves.

I just prefer to have a partner actually throw a real attack at me, for me to rep the move on. I prefer to get hit if I make a mistake. I need my training to feel real and effective.

Tho ill tell you this, I hear from tma's I meet saying they hate the ego's in the mma gyms. Well I can say that ego's are infact horridly inflated in some mma gyms. I also feel that some mma gyms spar to much, and spend not enough time working on perfecting technique..

So to prevent a hijack, I already know that kata is complex and ill likely never understand it because I don't train a art that does kata.

Well, our training used to be three hour sessions but we brought it back to two and a half hours a few years back. As to raising a sweat, I go to a gym for an hour, six days a week for that. (I also have two aikido sessions a week.). I encourage my guys to work on their fitness in their own time. We start off with a few limbering exercises then generally move into paired work, which is sensitivity based but with lots of locks holds and take downs. Sometimes we might use pads here as well. After maybe an hour of that we will move on to kata, which incidentally raises quite a sweat if performed correctly, followed by bunkai to that kata. Time constraints mean that we would only get through two or three kata in an hour, sometimes only one. Finally we move to training against weapons or own bunkai against random attacks. Sometimes.there might be some multiple attacker training.

Now, looking at your list of issues with TMAs, it is not easy, either physically or mentally, we do raise a sweat, most of our work is with a partner, our kata is taught as response to reality based attacks, and our sessions last at least two and a half hours. As to ego. I have not seen that as a problem anywhere I have trained, MMA or otherwise. I think all good training places leave egos at the door.

As I said earlier, I don't have an issue with MMA vs TMA. Trained properly they are both good training, and the both can be used for competition if that is what people want. :asian:

 

[Aiki Lee]

Just forgot to add, this. THis lastcriticism goes with my trains to easy complaint. Of the 5 TMA schools in mytown, 4 of them train under a hour from start to finish. With 2 of them havingbeginner and intermediate classes of ONLY 30 minutes from start to finish. Theonly place to have class's longer then a hour was the WTF TKD place. How is 1hour enough time to learn anything and get a good work out to prepare you toactually use the skills? WTF is the excuse for the very shortclass's???

Are you sure they are TMAschools and not McDojo's?

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To be fair, Like Sukerkin said, most people practicemartial arts as a sort of hobby. In this day and age people are so busy thatsometimes they only have an hour to devote to training. I’ve seen a lot ofschools have these kind of time limits for each class, but they offer multipleclasses throughout the week. It would make progress slower, but that doesn’t makeit a McDojo.

 

[K-man]

To be fair, Like Sukerkin said, most people practicemartial arts as a sort of hobby. In this day and age people are so busy thatsometimes they only have an hour to devote to training. I’ve seen a lot ofschools have these kind of time limits for each class, but they offer multipleclasses throughout the week. It would make progress slower, but that doesn’t makeit a McDojo.

Good point. I have three students who can only train one night a week so two and a half hours gives them a fair amount of training anyway. :asian:

 

[aaradia]

I don't quite get this, and maybe it is my TCMA background

TCMA is a little time with your sifu and a lot of time training on your own so I don't understand the need for hours and hours training at a school. They give you the stuff to work on and then you need to go work on it..... and my Sanda sifu was no different... shows me some kicks, has me do them, and then go train kicks, do 100 a day, each leg, for a couple of weeks. GO back and show him and he says...no good, go train more....a week later he says good.... I'm shown more stuff.... I don't get the need to be at a school a lot in order to be effective....train right and train often...that is all.

Exactly how I see it. We have private lessons each week, where we are given our curriculum material and get it reviewed. And we have a large variety of various classes (sparring, bag workout, weapons, stick fighting, group, kicking, sash level, etc.). But we are expected to spend lots of time training on our own. Now my school is open long hours, so we can train on our own at the school. Or we can train elswhere. Training on our own at the school is nice because you can pull an instructor and ask for help if you get stuck. But training in a class is not going to be enough to become a skilled MAist. You have to put in your own practice time.

 

[James Kovacich]

To be fair, Like Sukerkin said, most people practicemartial arts as a sort of hobby. In this day and age people are so busy thatsometimes they only have an hour to devote to training. I’ve seen a lot ofschools have these kind of time limits for each class, but they offer multipleclasses throughout the week. It would make progress slower, but that doesn’t makeit a McDojo.

I didn't claim they were McDojos. Just that it seems McDojoish that the 5 TMA schools near him they all train under an hour with 2 of them 1/2 hour for beginners and intermediates. My point was they don't seem to be a good choice to represent TMA in a TMA vs MMA discussion.



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[Aiki Lee]

I didn't claim they were McDojos. Just that it seems McDojoish that the 5 TMA schools near him they all train under an hour with 2 of them 1/2 hour for beginners and intermediates. My point was they don't seem to be a good choice to represent TMA in a TMA vs MMA discussion.



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Yes, but time alone isn't evident either of McDojoness.

 

[James Kovacich]

Yes, but time alone isn't evident either of McDojoness.

It wasn't my intention to imply it was. One of my Eskrima instructors teaches a 1 hr class during the weekdays and he makes it work. To me 1 hr is bare minimum, thats just me. But a 30 minute class...I don't think so. The beginners and intermediates need more. They are just extending the amount of time they can collect $ before the student quits. A one class done well can be done but to me it is the bare minimum.

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[Kframe]

Ill say this about mma. There is no loyalty in it, not like in TMA arts. People in mma tend to have no qualms about jumping from gym to gym, only focusing on them selvs. It seams most have the dream of competing in the UFC and so while they may make friends in the gym, if they feel that they have soaked all they can from that gym they will move on to others.. Now I find it ironic that is my complaint even tho I to have left my gym as well... Im still conflicted about it, but I noticed that a lot in mma have no loyalty...

 

[James Kovacich]

Ill say this about mma. There is no loyalty in it, not like in TMA arts. People in mma tend to have no qualms about jumping from gym to gym, only focusing on them selvs. It seams most have the dream of competing in the UFC and so while they may make friends in the gym, if they feel that they have soaked all they can from that gym they will move on to others.. Now I find it ironic that is my complaint even tho I to have left my gym as well... Im still conflicted about it, but I noticed that a lot in mma have no loyalty...

That is true. But it is a fight sport and that's how they grow as martial artists and fighters.

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[Steve]

Ill say this about mma. There is no loyalty in it, not like in TMA arts. People in mma tend to have no qualms about jumping from gym to gym, only focusing on them selvs. It seams most have the dream of competing in the UFC and so while they may make friends in the gym, if they feel that they have soaked all they can from that gym they will move on to others.. Now I find it ironic that is my complaint even tho I to have left my gym as well... Im still conflicted about it, but I noticed that a lot in mma have no loyalty...

That is true. But it is a fight sport and that's how they grow as martial artists and fighters.

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That is actually not true, even at the highest levels. Some guys leave. Some train at more than one gym, but even among the elite athletes, most are exceedingly loyal to their trainers. I'd be willing to wager that there is less movement from gym to gym among MMA athletes than among martial artists in a "traditional" school. Let's just take a gander through the CMA, WC or TKD sub forums to look at the many posts on lineage, school quality, national teams and conversations about the infighting, politics and issues.

This is really ironic, in that you even acknowledge that you have left your gym, and while you give yourself a pass because you were "conflicted," you presume that every single MMA athlete feels on compunction.

Give me a break guys.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That is actually not true, even at the highest levels. Some guys leave. Some train at more than one gym, but even among the elite athletes, most are exceedingly loyal to their trainers. I'd be willing to wager that there is less movement from gym to gym among MMA athletes than among martial artists in a "traditional" school. Let's just take a gander through the CMA, WC or TKD sub forums to look at the many posts on lineage, school quality, national teams and conversations about the infighting, politics and issues.

This is really ironic, in that you even acknowledge that you have left your gym, and while you give yourself a pass because you were "conflicted," you presume that every single MMA athlete feels on compunction.

Give me a break guys.

Although I agree with what you are saying about MMA, there is a school near me and the people that go there are incredibly loyal to the trainer there.

I feel I should add something don't confuse lineage, school quality, national teams and conversations about the infighting, politics and issues with jumping from school ot school, because it generally is not the same thing. It is silly, but it is not the same thing.

What you have done there is use the same prejudice against TMA that you are rightfully accusing others of doing about MMA schools. And what you are saying is simply not the case. Both MMA and TMA are pretty much on an even keel when it comes to that. The only real difference is the goal of their training. One trains to fight knowing they will fight and knowing it is possible that they will see the same exact guy agian and the other trains to fight hoping they never do fight but if they do they never see the same guy again. Same can be said for Sanda, Muay Thai, and Judo as compared to TMA too.

Bottom-line is I don't want to fight any of them and I highly respect all martial arts styles....

…well maybe not Brazilian jiu jitsu...but that is not so much for lack of loyalty, training or skill, they have all that… that bit is damn impressive actually...it is that darn inferiority complex they have spelling it jiu jitsu and trying to be like us incredibly awesome, manly, perpetually cool, and handsome old school Japanese Jiu Jitsu guys because that is how we use to spell it and they are just trying to be like us...its rather sad actually...but then who can blame them...we were incredibly awesome, manly, perpetually cool, and handsome :uhyeah:

 

[James Kovacich]

That is actually not true, even at the highest levels. Some guys leave. Some train at more than one gym, but even among the elite athletes, most are exceedingly loyal to their trainers. I'd be willing to wager that there is less movement from gym to gym among MMA athletes than among martial artists in a "traditional" school. Let's just take a gander through the CMA, WC or TKD sub forums to look at the many posts on lineage, school quality, national teams and conversations about the infighting, politics and issues.

This is really ironic, in that you even acknowledge that you have left your gym, and while you give yourself a pass because you were "conflicted," you presume that every single MMA athlete feels on compunction.

Give me a break guys.

I see your point about the loyalty. But the fact is they do move on when it is time too. That's what fighters do. That's what I was agreeing with. And your right about others moving on too. When it's time to go, I go.

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[Kframe]

I stand by my comment on loyalty. You may disagree, and have examples in your area, but my experiance has not been the same as yours. Firstly You called me out for leaving and feeling conflicted. You wanna know why i left big shot, fine ill tell you. I left becuase i am in it for a hobby and fitness and to learn some self defense. I was not the lowest skilled but not any were near the top of our gym.

We have had a number of other hobby guys come in and leave after only a short while. We had one guy, a TKD WTF black belt that stuck around. He made the near perfect sparring partner for me. He was different then me, i was a infighter, he was obviously a outfighter. I learned much from him. I Was at the point in my striking training and flexibility that there was no more technical things for me to learn. Things like the blocks and the strikes, i had been shown and taught them all, as far as my flexibility would allow. The only things left were coaches more fancy kicks but they were not critical or even needed.

I was at the point were the only way i could keep learning my striking skill set for this school was in sparring. Now for months and months i had my tkd bb parnter, i learned much about closing the gap on a guy who loves to spam front kicks and other linear kicks to keep me at range. He got much needed practice on using his hands and defending himself up close. It was funny for me at the time. He had at least 4 years martial arts experiance on me, yet in sparring we were evenly matched.

Then came the day, he had to leave. He got a new job out of state and had to leave immediately. I dont blame him it nearly doubled his then current salary.
This was a problem for me, seeing as everyone else there was a veteran fighter with 3+ years mma experiance on me, and they all were getting ready for a fight.

I remember my last sparring match there, it was humiliating. It was the reason i quit. It was a round robin sparring session. We had a couple of guys come that had trained there previously and had come back to train more after some time off. The session also included sparring with the assistant coach, and my final sparring session was with the head coach. I had in all maybe a hour of sparring that day..

I steped up and it seamed as if all my training got tossed out the window. I just could not react fast enough. I felt like a rank newb all over again. I could not make any of my defenses work against any of them. I got hit way more then i was used to, as my defense was spot on previously. I was getting hit harder then i was used to, but i think i may have been going harder then i should have..

It was like my defense skills all got tossed, nothing was working, and they could hit me at will. It was so humiliating, i am better then this, i told my self. I felt like a mobile punching bag. I dont know why all my skills evaporated during that time, I have a feeling it was just the disparity of skill between me and them.

I stayed over to train more with head coach that day, and he wanted to go 3 more rounds. So we did, and it was even worse then the last session. I literally could not touch him, he was so fast. He didnt even have to effect a defense on me, he was so quick. I think i hit him one time, with a leg kick, but that was it.. When the session was over, he told me i was doing just fine. But i was nearly in tears, i was so upset. I didnt cry or anything but man i was close.. I felt like a failure, so totally a failure.... Like everything i did up till that point was a waste of time.

I am still conflicted because my coach would tell me to clean the sand out of my xxxxxx and to keep sparring. So knowing that i let him down i feel like a failure. I feel i failed to man up and take the harder sparring and enjoy it. I made the decision to leave because i felt i was no longer learning anything with regards to my striking.

They no longer have any hobby guys at that gym, only competing fighters, one of which is close to breaking into the big leagues. They were so fit, so amazingly confident, that is what i wanted so badly for my self. I left because i failed my self.. Up till recently i blamed it on taking a hard shot that rocked me, but i know that was just a excuse i made up to my self, to feel better. It did not work.

During my time there i saw many come and go, some were hobby guys others were competing fighters. Only the core group stayed, which was a small one. The rest had no loyalty at all..

 

[Aiki Lee]

It wasn't my intention toimply it was. One of my Eskrima instructors teaches a 1 hr class during theweekdays and he makes it work. To me 1 hr is bare minimum, thats just me. But a30 minute class...I don't think so. The beginners and intermediates need more.They are just extending the amount of time they can collect $ before thestudent quits. A one class done well can be done but to me it is the bareminimum.

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½ an hour seems short to me too. In order to get anywhereyou could only practice one or two things to get any kind of consistency perclass, but maybe that is what they do. Maybe they feel too much would overwhelmthe student.
Classes at my dojo run 45 minutes long. But we haveclasses 5 days a week plus an additional 2 hour aikido class on Fridays. So abrand new person who attends all the classes he or she can at that level couldattend all our fundamentals classes and aikido classes which ends up being 7hours of training per week, which is a lot for most people (not necessarily youor me though). Other classes focus on much needed other aspects of our art thatother students need to practice.

I remember my last sparring match there, it was humiliating. It was the reasoni quit. It was a round robin sparring session. We had a couple of guys comethat had trained there previously and had come back to train more after sometime off. The session also included sparring with the assistant coach, and myfinal sparring session was with the head coach. I had in all maybe a hour ofsparring that day..

I steped up and it seamed as if all my training got tossed out the window. Ijust could not react fast enough. I felt like a rank newb all over again. Icould not make any of my defenses work against any of them. I got hit way morethen i was used to, as my defense was spot on previously. I was getting hitharder then i was used to, but i think i may have been going harder then ishould have..

It was like my defense skills all got tossed, nothing was working, and theycould hit me at will. It was so humiliating, i am better then this, i told myself. I felt like a mobile punching bag. I dont know why all my skillsevaporated during that time, I have a feeling it was just the disparity ofskill between me and them.

I stayed over to train more with head coach that day, and he wanted to go 3more rounds. So we did, and it was even worse then the last session. Iliterally could not touch him, he was so fast. He didnt even have to effect adefense on me, he was so quick. I think i hit him one time, with a leg kick,but that was it.. When the session was over, he told me i was doing just fine.But i was nearly in tears, i was so upset. I didnt cry or anything but man iwas close.. I felt like a failure, so totally a failure.... Like everything idid up till that point was a waste of time.

I am still conflicted because my coach would tell me to clean the sand out ofmy xxxxxx and to keep sparring. So knowing that i let him down i feel like afailure. I feel i failed to man up and take the harder sparring and enjoy it. Imade the decision to leave because i felt i was no longer learning anythingwith regards to my striking.

They no longer have any hobby guys at that gym, only competing fighters, one ofwhich is close to breaking into the big leagues. They were so fit, so amazinglyconfident, that is what i wanted so badly for my self. I left because i failedmy self.. Up till recently i blamed it on taking a hard shot that rocked me,but i know that was just a excuse i made up to my self, to feel better. It didnot work.

During my time there i saw many come and go, some were hobby guys others werecompeting fighters. Only the core group stayed, which was a small one. The resthad no loyalty at all..

I had days like that back when I was trying to learnkarate and I kept losing at tournaments. My teacher at the time seemed to haveno interest in helping me actually improve. Luckily my current teacher seemsdedicated to our improvement.
But did you ever lay out your concerns to your coach?Sometimes we think we are doing something correctly and it turns out we aren’tand only when the issues are brought up specifically will an instructor fixthose issues.
Anyways, I hope things are going better for you now.

 

[Cyriacus]

"I made the decision to leave because i felt i was no longer learning anything with regards to my striking."

I feel the need to contradict you. You were learning lots, just not what you wanted to learn.

Ill say this about mma. There is no loyalty in it, not like in TMA arts. People in mma tend to have no qualms about jumping from gym to gym, only focusing on them selvs. It seams most have the dream of competing in the UFC and so while they may make friends in the gym, if they feel that they have soaked all they can from that gym they will move on to others.. Now I find it ironic that is my complaint even tho I to have left my gym as well... Im still conflicted about it, but I noticed that a lot in mma have no loyalty...

My opinion: If the place isnt giving me what i want/any more, i have no reason to be there any more. Yeah, its selfish. I just dont think thats a bad thing. -A TMA Guy