MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

I am a very strong believer that it's not the art but the person using it. Still, whenever there's a video of Kung Fu/Aikido/Wing Chun etc on Youtube, it immediately becomes a comment war between those who like it and those who say that none of that stuff works and real fighters are only MMA fighters.

I was wondering if this forum's MMA fans share the same distaste/mistrust/skepticism about the combat effectiveness of more traditional arts in real life situations.

Well. think about the nemesis of TMA practitioners; Wrestlers and Boxers. During my Karate days, most of my peers considered beating a boxer or a wrestler to be the ultimate showcase of the effectiveness of our styles. That says something, because it immediately implies that our TMA is inherently inferior to boxing and wrestling, and frankly for the most part it was.

Not because of the art itself, but how we practiced it. A boxer is in the ring hitting an opponent, or outside the ring hitting a heavy bag or jumping rope. Meanwhile, we're in our dojo hitting empty air and doing katas. The boxer has 5 punches they perfect, and we have hundreds that we have to cycle through. Most boxers are lean, and in shape, while most of us were flabby and out of shape. So when it came time to spar against a boxer, the outcome wasn't surprising. Wrestling is no different.

I don't believe that TMAs are all that effective. Swinging a sword around or doing katas/forms isn't going to prepare you for that 250lb gorilla trying to bring pain down upon you. The martial sports are simply better. Why? Because the martial sports get you in better shape, are highly competitive, are highly combative, and cross train constantly. For example, Anderson Silva's domination in MMA made more people check out Muay Thai kickboxing. Rhonda Rousey's success has gotten people to check out Judo.

People who practice MMA have nothing against TMA styles, as long as they're proven. Judo and Muay Thai are as old as many Kung Fu styles, Aikido, and Bujinkan Ninjutsu. The problem is when the latter starts saying that they're too "deadly" for the ring, or forbid their students from cross-training, MMA folks start rolling their eyes. If you can't fight in the ring with rules and safety, you're not going to be able to fight in the street where there are no rules or safety. When your sensei or sifu doesn't want you training at the local BJJ gym, something's wrong.

 

[K-man]

Well. think about the nemesis of TMA practitioners; Wrestlers and Boxers. During my Karate days, most of my peers considered beating a boxer or a wrestler to be the ultimate showcase of the effectiveness of our styles. That says something, because it immediately implies that our TMA is inherently inferior to boxing and wrestling, and frankly for the most part it was.

Right from the start you are comparing you karate with boxing and wresting. That is sport karate and it is the sport environment. So I would suggest that if your 'TMA' was inferior to boxing and wrestling, you weren't taught properly to begin with.

Not because of the art itself, but how we practiced it. A boxer is in the ring hitting an opponent, or outside the ring hitting a heavy bag or jumping rope. Meanwhile, we're in our dojo hitting empty air and doing katas. The boxer has 5 punches they perfect, and we have hundreds that we have to cycle through. Most boxers are lean, and in shape, while most of us were flabby and out of shape. So when it came time to spar against a boxer, the outcome wasn't surprising. Wrestling is no different.

Again you are comparing apples with oranges. There are lots of boxers I know that just play around to keep a healthy level of fitness. They are no where near 'fighting fit' and the same applies to karateka. Unless we are training for competition we don't need to be at peak condition. I'm certainly not at peak condition and will never be again, but I'm certainly not flabby and out of shape.

I don't believe that TMAs are all that effective. Swinging a sword around or doing katas/forms isn't going to prepare you for that 250lb gorilla trying to bring pain down upon you. The martial sports are simply better. Why? Because the martial sports get you in better shape, are highly competitive, are highly combative, and cross train constantly. For example, Anderson Silva's domination in MMA made more people check out Muay Thai kickboxing. Rhonda Rousey's success has gotten people to check out Judo.

You really have an axe to grind don't you? I would suggest 'swinging a sword around' is really nothing to do with any form of street defence. It is practised out of interest and to preserve an art. The fact that you say kata won't help you just demonstrates that you have never used kata in the way it was intended. If you just learn kata to pass a grading without learning how to apply it you may as well learn finger painting.

Then you say 'the martial sports are better'. So once again you are taking about sport. No one would question that a very good MMA fighter would have an advantage over a good boxer, wrestler or sport karate practitioner. But that is a totally different discussion.


People who practice MMA have nothing against TMA styles, as long as they're proven. Judo and Muay Thai are as old as many Kung Fu styles, Aikido, and Bujinkan Ninjutsu. The problem is when the latter starts saying that they're too "deadly" for the ring, or forbid their students from cross-training, MMA folks start rolling their eyes. If you can't fight in the ring with rules and safety, you're not going to be able to fight in the street where there are no rules or safety. When your sensei or sifu doesn't want you training at the local BJJ gym, something's wrong.

Judo is much more recent than Muay Thai. Judo is not the same as it was when Kano developed it and Aikido was developed at about the same time from Daito Ryu. On the other hand, Kung fu has been around for centuries as has been Ninjutsu.

Now, let's look at you proposition that the problem is when people claim their art is too deadly. Most martial arts like Kung fu and Karate were designed to protect the person against untrained assailants. These assailants may have been armed. The training provided through the kata includes many lethal techniques such as neck breaks, chokes strangles etc. if someone grabs me in a backstreet I might well stick my thumbs straight in his eyes. I don't think blinding someone is acceptable in the ring but if I am competing in the ring I have to accept that a lot of my training can't be used.

I'm not into sport karate and I don't teach it for the ring. I teach it to help ensure that if my students ever encounter a problem on the street, they will be able to walk away.

This is not denigrating MMA. I believe they are the best rounded ring fighters about. It's just that MMA and properly trained TMA are totally different animals.
:asian:

BTW welcome to MT. Perhaps you could tell us a little about yourself on 'Meet & Greet'. :wavey:

 

[Hanzou]

Right from the start you are comparing you karate with boxing and wresting. That is sport karate and it is the sport environment. So I would suggest that if your 'TMA' was inferior to boxing and wrestling, you weren't taught properly to begin with.

Actually I was taught traditional Shotokan Karate. However, even if I was learning "sport Karate" wrestling and boxing are also sports, and in contest after contest, wrestlers and boxers tear traditional martial artists a new one over and over again. What are they doing that TMA exponents are not doing?

Again you are comparing apples with oranges. There are lots of boxers I know that just play around to keep a healthy level of fitness. They are no where near 'fighting fit' and the same applies to karateka. Unless we are training for competition we don't need to be at peak condition. I'm certainly not at peak condition and will never be again, but I'm certainly not flabby and out of shape.

Well that's what I'm saying. If you're training for competition at various intervals, you're going to be in some level of shape versus someone who never trains for competition. A person who competes every six months or so is still going to be in better physical condition than someone who never competes, or will never compete. An athlete is simply superior in terms of physical conditioning than a non-athlete. Boxing, Judo, and Wrestling facilitate this. TMA simply does not (for the most part).

You really have an axe to grind don't you? I would suggest 'swinging a sword around' is really nothing to do with any form of street defence. It is practised out of interest and to preserve an art. The fact that you say kata won't help you just demonstrates that you have never used kata in the way it was intended. If you just learn kata to pass a grading without learning how to apply it you may as well learn finger painting.

No, I don't have an axe to grind. I'm just pointing out things that I've noticed over the years. Let's be honest; In the vast majority of TMA schools, the kata is simply in place just to fatten the curriculum (and the wallet), and give owners something to grade their students. It is almost never broken down to its core techniques. Mainly because of time constraints, and mainly because its an out of date training tool. There's nothing wrong with preserving the traditional art. However in terms of fighting and self defense, such things are pretty useless. In terms of physical fitness and exercise, they are great though.

Then you say 'the martial sports are better'. So once again you are taking about sport. No one would question that a very good MMA fighter would have an advantage over a good boxer, wrestler or sport karate practitioner. But that is a totally different discussion.

I'm also saying that a MMA fighter, Boxer, and Wrestler would have an advantage over a TMA practitioner as well.

Judo is much more recent than Muay Thai. Judo is not the same as it was when Kano developed it and Aikido was developed at about the same time from Daito Ryu. On the other hand, Kung fu has been around for centuries as has been Ninjutsu.

It depends on the Kung Fu style. Choy Li Fut for example is only about 40 years older than Judo. Judo is about 40 years older than Aikido. I have personal issues with Ninjutsu's history as explained by Hatsumi. I would personally consider Ninjutsu as practiced today to be not much more than 50 years old.

Now, let's look at you proposition that the problem is when people claim their art is too deadly. Most martial arts like Kung fu and Karate were designed to protect the person against untrained assailants. These assailants may have been armed. The training provided through the kata includes many lethal techniques such as neck breaks, chokes strangles etc. if someone grabs me in a backstreet I might well stick my thumbs straight in his eyes. I don't think blinding someone is acceptable in the ring but if I am competing in the ring I have to accept that a lot of my training can't be used.

Yes, but who is more capable of using chokes, strangles, and breaks in a tense situation against a resisting opponent? The person drilling a kata over and over, or a the Judoka or BJJ practitioner who practices these moves constantly over and over again in randori against a resisting opponent?

This is not denigrating MMA. I believe they are the best rounded ring fighters about. It's just that MMA and properly trained TMA are totally different animals.

I have to disagree. MMA is TMA. MMA folks simply took TMAs and merged them together to create combat sports and self defense. Most TMAs are combinations of various styles, and most TMAs were tested in the "sport" arena throughout Asia and other places. This fear of testing your style in competition (with or without rules) is a fairly new phenomenon.

BTW welcome to MT. Perhaps you could tell us a little about yourself on 'Meet & Greet'. :wavey:

Thanks for the welcome. I will be sure to do just that.

 

[K-man]

Actually I was taught traditional Shotokan Karate. However, even if I was learning "sport Karate" wrestling and boxing are also sports, and in contest after contest, wrestlers and boxers tear traditional martial artists a new one over and over again. What are they doing that TMA exponents are not doing?

Mmm! I think we must be living on different planets. I don't regard Shotokan as 'traditional'. It was developed by Funakoshi from Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu. All the 'traditional' stuff was left out. It was developed to teach in schools and universities, not to kill people. Parents can get upset when that happens.

Shotokan is a great style of sport karate and can rightly be compared with other sports. For what it's worth, I consider Kyokushin and all other Japanese systems the same. That doesn't mean you can't add stuff back to make them more reality based but as normally taught they are 'sport'.

I could write a book on why sport based karateka lose out to boxers etc. (in fact I am writing a book ) You only have to step back and watch the training to see so many bad principles, starting from the feet up.

Well that's what I'm saying. If you're training for competition at various intervals, you're going to be in some level of shape versus someone who never trains for competition. A person who competes every six months or so is still going to be in better physical condition than someone who never competes, or will never compete. An athlete is simply superior in terms of physical conditioning than a non-athlete. Boxing, Judo, and Wrestling facilitate this. TMA simply does not (for the most part).

Depends where you train. When I was training a sport based Japanese system back in the 80s my teachers were the Australian team. They were extremely fit. I thought they were fantastic. But again, I thought at the time what I was learning was a TMA. It took me many years to realise that so much more existed.

No, I don't have an axe to grind. I'm just pointing out things that I've noticed over the years. Let's be honest; In the vast majority of TMA schools, the kata is simply in place just to fatten the curriculum (and the wallet), and give owners something to grade their students. It is almost never broken down to its core techniques. Mainly because of time constraints, and mainly because its an out of date training tool. There's nothing wrong with preserving the traditional art. However in terms of fighting and self defense, such things are pretty useless. In terms of physical fitness and exercise, they are great though.

I'm not convinced you have ever seen a traditional school. Kata is 90% of a traditional school! but not the kihon kata you are talking about. That is basic kata. You move onto the advanced form of kata, then start to explore the applications. I could agree that it is almost never trained the way it was intended but to say it is an out of date training tool demonstrates your lack of understanding of the teaching style of the Japanese. Kihon kata is the 'shu' part of the learning. It is where you copy your teacher exactly. That is unfortunately where most karateka stop. They never go the next step to the 'ha' form and I have only seen a handful of people at the 'ri' level where you make the kata your own.

If you are unfamiliar with this concept of Shuhari there is a little here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari

I'm also saying that a MMA fighter, Boxer, and Wrestler would have an advantage over a TMA practitioner as well.

Again we have the problem of terminology. Certainly an MMA fighter has the advantage over straight boxers, wrestlers or sport karateka, but a TMA practitioner is training for something totally different. They don't train to go in the ring.

[/I]It depends on the Kung Fu style. Choy Li Fut for example is only about 40 years older than Judo. Judo is about 40 years older than Aikido. I have personal issues with Ninjutsu's history as explained by Hatsumi. I would personally consider Ninjutsu as practiced today to be not much more than 50 years old.

Yes, but who is more capable of using chokes, strangles, and breaks in a tense situation against a resisting opponent? The person drilling a kata over and over, or a the Judoka or BJJ practitioner who practices these moves constantly over and over again in randori against a resisting opponent?

Your traditional martial artist does not practise these things by performing kata. (Remember, kata as it is performed is the kihon.) We train them over and over against total resistance. We also train them with minimal resistance to teach the reversals. This type of training is not restricted to just one or two styles. If you were not taught all this at the karate school you attended, then is the fault of the school and the instructors, not the fault of the system. It's a bit like a car without an engine. It looks fantastic on the outside but it's never going to go anywhere.

I have to disagree. MMA is TMA. MMA folks simply took TMAs and merged them together to create combat sports and self defense. Most TMAs are combinations of various styles, and most TMAs were tested in the "sport" arena throughout Asia and other places. This fear of testing your style in competition (with or without rules) is a fairly new phenomenon.

MMA is much closer to traditional martial arts than you realise. Kano had strikes in judo before he took them out for sport. Ueshiba had atemi in aikido although only a small percentage of schools teach it. Karate had all the locks holds and throws before it went into the schools. Now if you want to learn those things in karate you need to find a traditional school, not the sport based ones.

Thanks for the welcome. I will be sure to do just that.

Cheers!
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

I could write a book on why sport based karateka lose out to boxers etc. (in fact I am writing a book ) You only have to step back and watch the training to see so many bad principles, starting from the feet up.

Its not just sport karate that loses out to boxers and wrestlers. Its karate in general, along with many other traditional styles. Hence why those styles shy away from competition. Competition would expose their effectiveness in a fight.

I'm not convinced you have ever seen a traditional school. Kata is 90% of a traditional school! but not the kihon kata you are talking about. That is basic kata. You move onto the advanced form of kata, then start to explore the applications. I could agree that it is almost never trained the way it was intended but to say it is an out of date training tool demonstrates your lack of understanding of the teaching style of the Japanese. Kihon kata is the 'shu' part of the learning. It is where you copy your teacher exactly. That is unfortunately where most karateka stop. They never go the next step to the 'ha' form and I have only seen a handful of people at the 'ri' level where you make the kata your own.

Again, that is simply a waste of time. What's the point in wasting training time doing a kata when you can better hone your abilities in randori or via a heavy bag? Obviously I can see the purpose behind this if your goal is to preserve the martial art (for some reason), but in terms of fighting, there's just no purpose behind it. This is why boxers are better strikers than Karatekas or Kung Fu practitioners. They study 4-5 punches, and then learn how to apply power behind those 4-5 punches. You could argue that shadow boxing is a kata, but then again, you shadow box like you fight. You don't fight like the kata or form in any style of MA.

Again we have the problem of terminology. Certainly an MMA fighter has the advantage over straight boxers, wrestlers or sport karateka, but a TMA practitioner is training for something totally different. They don't train to go in the ring.

They don't train for fighting either. They were created to fight on a battlefield, but people haven't used them on the battlefield for centuries. That causes an art to dry up and slowly die.

Your traditional martial artist does not practise these things by performing kata. (Remember, kata as it is performed is the kihon.) We train them over and over against total resistance. We also train them with minimal resistance to teach the reversals. This type of training is not restricted to just one or two styles. If you were not taught all this at the karate school you attended, then is the fault of the school and the instructors, not the fault of the system. It's a bit like a car without an engine. It looks fantastic on the outside but it's never going to go anywhere.

Well that was a complete avoidance of the question. The fact that Judoka and Bjj practitioners can perform locks and throws in a competitive environment while traditional arts cannot proves my point. Regardless of the training method your TMA employs, the superior method of utilizing locks, throws, and submissions was created by the Kodokan over a century ago.

MMA is much closer to traditional martial arts than you realise. Kano had strikes in judo before he took them out for sport. Ueshiba had atemi in aikido although only a small percentage of schools teach it. Karate had all the locks holds and throws before it went into the schools. Now if you want to learn those things in karate you need to find a traditional school, not the sport based ones.

I think you're confusing mixed martial arts with modern martial arts. Aikido isn't a part of the standard MMA curriculum you see in many MMA schools. Mostly because its viewed as ineffective, despite it being a modern form of MA.

 

[K-man]

Its not just sport karate that loses out to boxers and wrestlers. Its karate in general, along with many other traditional styles. Hence why those styles shy away from competition. Competition would expose their effectiveness in a fight.

That is just your opinion. Traditional karate is not for completion. It is obvious that you don't understand the difference between the two. It you want to limit the discussion to sport karate I could mostly agree.

Again, that is simply a waste of time. What's the point in wasting training time doing a kata when you can better hone your abilities in randori or via a heavy bag? Obviously I can see the purpose behind this if your goal is to preserve the martial art (for some reason), but in terms of fighting, there's just no purpose behind it. This is why boxers are better strikers than Karatekas or Kung Fu practitioners. They study 4-5 punches, and then learn how to apply power behind those 4-5 punches. You could argue that shadow boxing is a kata, but then again, you shadow box like you fight. You don't fight like the kata or form in any style of MA.

Again obvious that you have never seen kata applied. Check out Iain Abernethy if you want to see a Shotokan practitioner using kata bunkai. Performing kata has very little to do with preserving. Each kata is actually a fighting system and believe me, the purpose of it is to dispose of your assailant quickly.

Many boxers are better strikers than karateka but not for the reason I suspect you believe. Punches in Kung fu are different again. Most karateka are not taught to punch properly, especially those involved in point sparring. Go to Okinawa and watch the karate guys there punching and tell one of them they are not punching properly.

They don't train for fighting either. They were created to fight on a battlefield, but people haven't used them on the battlefield for centuries. That causes an art to dry up and slowly die.

Totally incorrect. The Okinawan martial arts were for civilian self defence, the Chinese ones for the monks to defend themselves and the monasteries. Karate hasn't been in existence for centuries and apart from perhaps some limited use in the second Sino-Japanese war and WWII has not been used on a battlefield at all. For the Japanese karate as trained in the military was primarily for fitness.

Well that was a complete avoidance of the question. The fact that Judoka and Bjj practitioners can perform locks and throws in a competitive environment while traditional arts cannot proves my point. Regardless of the training method your TMA employs, the superior method of utilizing locks, throws, and submissions was created by the Kodokan over a century ago.

I didn't avoid the question. You ignored my answer!

Yes, but who is more capable of using chokes, strangles, and breaks in a tense situation against a resisting opponent? The person drilling a kata over and over, or a the Judoka or BJJ practitioner who practices these moves constantly over and over again in randori against a resisting opponent?

But, I'll try again. The person who can use the chokes etc is the person who trains them. We practise them over and over as well although obviously not as much as BJJ as they are specialist grapplers. You are fixated on 'drilling kata'. Did you read the reference to Shuhari? Going up and down the dojo drilling kata is not what kata is about. Kata is about standing in front of you opponent within grappling distance learning to use your kata.

I think you're confusing mixed martial arts with modern martial arts. Aikido isn't a part of the standard MMA curriculum you see in many MMA schools. Mostly because its viewed as ineffective, despite it being a modern form of MA.

I'm not confusing MMA with anything. This thread is about MMA vs TMA and you are confusing TMA with modern martial arts. There are also many threads on the usefulness of Aikido. Suffice to say that the most effective martial artist I have ever seen is an Aikidoka, so I know it can be effective. Aikido is not part of MMA curriculum because most of what is in aikido is in BJJ and aikido has very little ground work, an essential part of competition. But the main points are TMAs are not designed to be tested in the ring with rules and TMAs are not the same as the sport based MAs that you normally see.
:asian:

 

[Kframe]

Part of the problem with karate is Funakoshi. His irresponsible actions with karate left it in the state its in today. I would love to see what karate was like before his meddling. What it was trained like and how it would compare to karate today and which would win a fight to the death.

Having said that, Ill mention my father. You see taekwondo is in even worse shape then karate. You have Koreans who learnt only part of a already water down and diluted system, going back home and trying to create there own thing. Removing whole components of kata and other training because they were never fully taught it and didn't understand it. So you have people who learned a diluted system, creating a even more diluted system.

I mention all that to give you a idea of what happens when someone takes a watered down art like TKD and fully explores it like its sapposed to be. Most of his young adult life he could not drive, so he hitched. Lots of people attempted to jump him back then. He won them all thanks to his study of TKD. Note I said his study. He had some not mainstream political views back then and got assaulted many times due to that. Won them all, using solid basics, and GASP throws locks and takedowns. Which now adays is weird for a TKD person. Not for him, it was part and parcel of who he was. While he loved TKD kicking, and preferred it, all of his fights took place at close range and made him use the underutilized hand techs of TKD.

That is what a properly studied TMA will do. Thing is, he had to devote many many hours outside of the Dojang, with his boxer/wrestler/weightlifter identical twin brother training and exploring the art. He learned more about TKD from his private training then he did in the actual Dojang... I attribute this to the system being a watered down diluted mess, modeled after a watered down diluted mess that is Karate.

 

[Kframe]

Hanzou honestly though you don't sound as if you know a lot about the history and actual usage of good karate. Just because it dosent do well in mma does not mean it is inferior. Many many people use it to defend them selvs on the street. If someone uses karate on the street and lives to tell about it, then it was a smashing success.

 

[Hanzou]

That is just your opinion. Traditional karate is not for completion. It is obvious that you don't understand the difference between the two. It you want to limit the discussion to sport karate I could mostly agree.

You're correct, I don't. You're supposedly practicing how to fight, yet you refuse to fight. Bjj, Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, and other arts are able to compete and be effective forms of martial arts and self defense. Muay Thai is traditional as hell, and they have no problem competing. Why can't traditional Karate? Are your techniques too deadly for the ring? Are traditional karate instructors unable to modify their art from competition to traditional? Other arts have no problem doing that. Why can't traditional karate, Jj, and other styles?

Again obvious that you have never seen kata applied. Check out Iain Abernethy if you want to see a Shotokan practitioner using kata bunkai. Performing kata has very little to do with preserving. Each kata is actually a fighting system and believe me, the purpose of it is to dispose of your assailant quickly.

Again correct, because traditional karatekas don't compete. So there's no way for anyone to actually gauge the effectiveness of anything they're doing. There's no way for anyone to actually see if Iain Abernethy can actually apply any of that pretty bunkai on an opponent trying to cave his face in. That's the problem. Unfortunately for students of such styles, its also the perfect scam.

Many boxers are better strikers than karateka but not for the reason I suspect you believe. Punches in Kung fu are different again. Most karateka are not taught to punch properly, especially those involved in point sparring. Go to Okinawa and watch the karate guys there punching and tell one of them they are not punching properly.

If there were Okinawan Karatekas willing to openly challenge boxers and others to fight them, I wouldn't need to fly to Okinawa to do any of that. The evidence would be evident. Just like I don't need to fly to Brazil to know that Bjj is a legit art. Practitioners or that style went around and fought all comers, earning the respect that style has today. Furthermore, I shouldn't need to fly to the source, why aren't there any Okinawan stylists setting up challenges? It would be a great way to promote the art, and prove its legitimacy. Who wouldn't want to see a traditional karateka go up against a semi-pro boxer?

But of course, you guys don't compete.....

Totally incorrect. The Okinawan martial arts were for civilian self defence, the Chinese ones for the monks to defend themselves and the monasteries. Karate hasn't been in existence for centuries and apart from perhaps some limited use in the second Sino-Japanese war and WWII has not been used on a battlefield at all. For the Japanese karate as trained in the military was primarily for fitness.

I was talking about TMAs in general. Not just Karate and Kung Fu.

I didn't avoid the question. You ignored my answer!

Yes, but who is more capable of using chokes, strangles, and breaks in a tense situation against a resisting opponent? The person drilling a kata over and over, or a the Judoka or BJJ practitioner who practices these moves constantly over and over again in randori against a resisting opponent?


But, I'll try again. The person who can use the chokes etc is the person who trains them. We practise them over and over as well although obviously not as much as BJJ as they are specialist grapplers. You are fixated on 'drilling kata'. Did you read the reference to Shuhari? Going up and down the dojo drilling kata is not what kata is about. Kata is about standing in front of you opponent within grappling distance learning to use your kata.

And I'm telling you that you're not going to be able to apply those moves in a self defense situation because you're not training it in an alive fashion. You're doing set drills. Granted, they're sped up set drills, but they're drills nonetheless. Drills utilized for specific attacks that require specific counters for them to be effective. This is why Kano completely abandoned them when he founded Judo. Kano discovered a superior method in randori, and that superiority has been proven over and over again.

I'm not confusing MMA with anything. This thread is about MMA vs TMA and you are confusing TMA with modern martial arts. There are also many threads on the usefulness of Aikido. Suffice to say that the most effective martial artist I have ever seen is an Aikidoka, so I know it can be effective. Aikido is not part of MMA curriculum because most of what is in aikido is in BJJ and aikido has very little ground work, an essential part of competition. But the main points are TMAs are not designed to be tested in the ring with rules and TMAs are not the same as the sport based MAs that you normally see.

Muay Thai and Boxing has little groundwork, yet they are the standard curriculum for most MMA practitioners. The excuse that TMAs aren't designed to be tested in the ring is exactly that. Again, no one doubts that boxers, wrestlers, judoka, Bjjers, and other martial athletes can defend themselves. So clearly, sport competition doesn't harm the effectiveness of the art. So what's the problem? Refusing to compete or participate in MMA fights casts a shadow of doubt over everything that TMA practitioners claim.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou honestly though you don't sound as if you know a lot about the history and actual usage of good karate. Just because it dosent do well in mma does not mean it is inferior. Many many people use it to defend them selvs on the street. If someone uses karate on the street and lives to tell about it, then it was a smashing success.

The fact that it doesn't do well in a controlled fighting environment makes its proficiency in an uncontrolled fighting environment highly suspect. Its like saying a race car driver shouldn't be expected to be able to drive on a residential street because there's more rules in place than on a race track.

I don't know how many people have used karate to defend themselves. Maybe quite a few have. However, if a loved one was asking my opinion on a martial art to take to defend themselves, Karate wouldn't be one of the arts I would recommend to them.

 

[ballen0351]

The fact that it doesn't do well in a controlled fighting environment makes its proficiency in an uncontrolled fighting environment highly suspect. Its like saying a race car driver shouldn't be expected to be able to drive on a residential street because there's more rules place than on a race track.

I don't know how many people have used karate to defend themselves. Maybe quite a few have. However, if a loved one was asking my opinion on a martial art to take to defend themselves, Karate wouldn't be one of the arts I would recommend to them.

That's the exact opposite of reality. By putting rules on fighting your severely limit Karate's usefulness. Karate wasn't designed for the ring and wasn't designed for rules.
I'm not referring to BS to deadly for the ring stuff I'm talking about basic target areas of Karate are off limits in the ring. The eyes, groin, throat, small joints like fingers and toes.
You keep saying Karate cant compete. There are several full contact karate tournaments all over the world
There are karate fighters all over the world in all lvls of professional fights from the UFC on down.

There is no perfect system out there that's what MMA is people trained is several different arts. There is no one art that can dominate alone. No one style alone can "compete" in MMA.

 

[ballen0351]

If there were Okinawan Karatekas willing to openly challenge boxers and others to fight them, I wouldn't need to fly to Okinawa to do any of that. The evidence would be evident. Just like I don't need to fly to Brazil to know that Bjj is a legit art. Practitioners or that style went around and fought all comers, earning the respect that style has today. Furthermore, I shouldn't need to fly to the source, why aren't there any Okinawan stylists setting up challenges? It would be a great way to promote the art, and prove its legitimacy. Who wouldn't want to see a traditional karateka go up against a semi-pro boxer?

But of course, you guys don't compete.....

Looks like competition to me

 

[Hanzou]

That's the exact opposite of reality. By putting rules on fighting your severely limit Karate's usefulness. Karate wasn't designed for the ring and wasn't designed for rules.
I'm not referring to BS to deadly for the ring stuff I'm talking about basic target areas of Karate are off limits in the ring. The eyes, groin, throat, small joints like fingers and toes.

And in a self defense situation, you oftentimes cannot blind a person, or crush their windpipe. For example in my case, I work with troubled young adults who need restrained. One punched a co-worker in the face, and I had to apply a Judo pin (after I "gently" took them to the ground) to insure the safety of myself, my co-worker, and the student. A couple of years ago, a good friend of mine became insanely drunk, and flipped out on another friend of mine. I had to apply a body lock on him to keep him under control. These are just two examples of me utilizing perfectly valid "ring" techniques in a self defense situation. How are those rules severely limiting the usefulness of my art? Is Karate and other TMAs somehow different than Judo/Bjj?

For all the rules in competitive Judo, Boxing, BJJ, or wrestling, no one is crazy enough to apply such rules in a self defense situation. Further, no one doubts that any of those "sports" are perfectly viable methods of self defense.

You keep saying Karate cant compete. There are several full contact karate tournaments all over the world
There are karate fighters all over the world in all lvls of professional fights from the UFC on down.

I never said there wasn't. I'm talking about the traditional martial arts styles that refuse to compete. The ones that you stated would be severely limited because of rules.

There is no perfect system out there that's what MMA is people trained is several different arts. There is no one art that can dominate alone. No one style alone can "compete" in MMA.

I definitely agree. I'm simply pointing out that the only way we can objectively test a style's effectiveness is in the competitive arena. Anecdotal evidence about some awesome traditionalist is simply not enough. If a boxing gym opens up and puts out sub-par fighters, its not going to be open very long. If a Bjj school opens up and other Bjj practitioners go to that school and find out its a joke, its not going to be open very long. However, there's numerous examples of TMA scammers and phonies being open for decades.

Looks like competition to me

Kyokushin is Japanese, and it isn't traditional. My mother is older than that style of Karate.

However, thank you for proving my point. Competition and sport has not dilluted Kyokushin whatsoever. It is a devastating form of Karate, highly respected in MMA circles, and it continues to evolve because of its competitive nature.

 

[K-man]

You're correct, I don't. You're supposedly practicing how to fight, yet you refuse to fight. Bjj, Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, and other arts are able to compete and be effective forms of martial arts and self defense. Muay Thai is traditional as hell, and they have no problem competing. Why can't traditional Karate? Are your techniques too deadly for the ring? Are traditional karate instructors unable to modify their art from competition to traditional? Other arts have no problem doing that. Why can't traditional karate, Jj, and other styles?

OK, I'll try one last time. Would you agree Iaido is a modern martial art? How do you think an MMA fighter in the ring would compete? OK we take away the sword and all of a sudden, surprise, surprise, the MMA fighter has the advantage. Traditional karate was never designed as sport and although some styles have adapted their practice, traditional karate has not. I don't want to modify my training for sport. I train for RBSD.

Again correct, because traditional karatekas don't compete. So there's no way for anyone to actually gauge the effectiveness of anything they're doing. There's no way for anyone to actually see if Iain Abernethy can actually apply any of that pretty bunkai on an opponent trying to cave his face in. That's the problem. Unfortunately for students of such styles, its also the perfect scam.

You are 100% right.Iain Abernathy has absolutely nothing he could show you and all the rest of us are scamming our students.

If there were Okinawan Karatekas willing to openly challenge boxers and others to fight them, I wouldn't need to fly to Okinawa to do any of that. The evidence would be evident. Just like I don't need to fly to Brazil to know that Bjj is a legit art. Practitioners or that style went around and fought all comers, earning the respect that style has today. Furthermore, I shouldn't need to fly to the source, why aren't there any Okinawan stylists setting up challenges? It would be a great way to promote the art, and prove its legitimacy. Who wouldn't want to see a traditional karateka go up against a semi-pro boxer?

But of course, you guys don't compete.....

Okinawan karateka have no need to prove anything. Why would they want to challenge boxers or others?

I was talking about TMAs in general. Not just Karate and Kung Fu.

Like what?

And I'm telling you that you're not going to be able to apply those moves in a self defense situation because you're not training it in an alive fashion. You're doing set drills. Granted, they're sped up set drills, but they're drills nonetheless. Drills utilized for specific attacks that require specific counters for them to be effective. This is why Kano completely abandoned them when he founded Judo. Kano discovered a superior method in randori, and that superiority has been proven over and over again.

We don't use any 'drills', set or otherwise. It is principle based training utilising randori. When my partner passes out unexpectedly, that is live enough for me.

Muay Thai and Boxing has little groundwork, yet they are the standard curriculum for most MMA practitioners. The excuse that TMAs aren't designed to be tested in the ring is exactly that. Again, no one doubts that boxers, wrestlers, judoka, Bjjers, and other martial athletes can defend themselves. So clearly, sport competition doesn't harm the effectiveness of the art. So what's the problem? Refusing to compete or participate in MMA fights casts a shadow of doubt over everything that TMA practitioners claim.

Total garbage. There have been dozens of karateka compete in MMA. I'll just give you one hundred for now!
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f61/30-successful-karate-fighters-mma-1040386/
You might have heard of some of them ...

Lyoto Machida (Shotokan), Bas Rutten (Kyokushin), Chuck Liddell (Kempo), George St-Pierre (Kyokushin), Sam Greco (Seidokaikan), Neil Grove (Goju Ryu), etc.

I'm over it. You have a position and although it is flawed you are sticking to it. You list your main art as Japanese MA which probably means you haven't trained much at all. Certainly you have no idea of TMAs.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

OK, I'll try one last time. Would you agree Iaido is a modern martial art? How do you think an MMA fighter in the ring would compete? OK we take away the sword and all of a sudden, surprise, surprise, the MMA fighter has the advantage. Traditional karate was never designed as sport and although some styles have adapted their practice, traditional karate has not. I don't want to modify my training for sport. I train for RBSD.

Terrible analogy. Karate and Judo for example are both empty handed fighting systems developed for self defense. Iado isn't, because its highly unlikely you're going to be walking around with a sword. Further Iado is more of a spiritual pursuit (moving Zen) than a form of self defense.

You are 100% right.Iain Abernathy has absolutely nothing he could show you and all the rest of us are scamming our students.

I've simply seen better training methods than what I saw out of Abernathy. I'm not saying he isn't a competent martial artist, because he certainly is. I just don't buy into the notion that those methods are effective means of performing grappling and holds. Every experience I've had (usually against Karatekas and classical Jj practicioners), their locking and grappling abilities are ineffective, and severely lacking in technique and power. Most locks they attempt are pretty easily reversed and countered. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm simply discussing my experience. Perhaps you could recommend some classical MA schools that I should visit to see the "real" stuff?

Okinawan karateka have no need to prove anything. Why would they want to challenge boxers or others?

To prove that their traditional style can compete with more modern methods.

Total garbage. There have been dozens of karateka compete in MMA. I'll just give you one hundred for now!

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f61/30-successful-karate-fighters-mma-1040386/
You might have heard of some of them ...

Lyoto Machida (Shotokan), Bas Rutten (Kyokushin), Chuck Liddell (Kempo), George St-Pierre (Kyokushin), Sam Greco (Seidokaikan), Neil Grove (Goju Ryu), etc.

All of those Karate styles listed above are modern or sport Karate styles. Seidokan was founded in the 80s. Goju Ryu was founded in 1930. Where's the traditional "real" karate you were talking about earlier?

What happened to this?

Mmm! I think we must be living on different planets. I don't regard Shotokan as 'traditional'. It was developed by Funakoshi from Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu. All the 'traditional' stuff was left out. It was developed to teach in schools and universities, not to kill people. Parents can get upset when that happens.

Shotokan is a great style of sport karate and can rightly be compared with other sports. For what it's worth, I consider Kyokushin and all other Japanese systems the same. That doesn't mean you can't add stuff back to make them more reality based but as normally taught they are 'sport'.

I could write a book on why sport based karateka lose out to boxers etc. (in fact I am writing a book ) You only have to step back and watch the training to see so many bad principles, starting from the feet up.

I'm over it. You have a position and although it is flawed you are sticking to it. You list your main art as Japanese MA which probably means you haven't trained much at all. Certainly you have no idea of TMAs.

LoL! No, my background is simply in the Japanese martial arts. I've been doing martial arts for most of my life. But yes, since Shotokan isn't considered a traditional art, I haven't trained in a traditional MA style. Mostly because I could never verify whether it was real or some scam. Also all the squabbles about lineage and "purity" was annoying and childish. I moved over to Judo/Bjj and boxing. Much quieter, and quite a bit more effective.

 

[Kframe]

Hanzou you keep mentioning traditional Japanese Jujutsu, yet you don't ever mention any specific style. What do you know of traditional Jujutsu? Did you actually train in a old koryu art or something later? I think that maybe some of the people with more experience in them should come and educate you on such matters.

I know that Kirk Lawson can relate that most Classical European arts didn't compete much. From my understanding from reading online, is that when they did, it a lot of times was more of a battlefield simulation. Fights were not stopped until first blood. They would have one squad of guys line up and go fight another squad of guys. Often time severe injuries and even death were the norm. That is not sportive competition, that's something else. Our military does something similar, just with simunition and with out all the injury and death..

You need to stop spreading hatred man. I hate to tell you this, but mma need to start becoming friends with TMA and real quick like. The progressives are coming for mma and boxing and oddly football. You think that when they get done removing all the contact and fun from foot ball that they will stop there? NO they will go on to either out right ban mma, or enact such rules that make doing certain things in a match illegal. Thusly screwing and ruining mma for the perceivable future. They have been after boxing for most of this century.

If being allowed to train in ANY martial art, is to survive in a form were people actually get good training from it, then all styles need to ban together. This infighting must stop, it does not help the overall cuase of martial arts. A house divided will not stand. Hang together or hang alone.. If mma keeps alienating tma, what makes you think that the tma will do anything when the ban hammer starts coming down on mma? What makes you think they will actively protest and campaign against such things. The answer is they wont and only mma and the rampant ego and macho douche baggery that is filling it. I have trained mma, it has helped me immensely. I left it due to the egos, and bad sparring encounters oh and the fact that mma gyms in my area are not stable and don't last very long.

MMA is attracting not good people(Miguel Falco im looking at you.). Whats funny is you hold mma up on a pedestal and yet, when push came to shove, Falco fought like a untrained brawler. Showing no semblance of skill or expertise. MMA needs to stop attracting Douche bags and start holding people to a higher moral and behavioral standard.

All martial arts styles need to work with each other in open comradeship, not hatred and derision. We all need to support each other. Tma/mma need to work together to keep the martial arts viable and untainted by the foolishness of progressive lawmakers who wish to control the populous and remove things that they perceive as unneeded and unfit for consumption.

Here is a good idea. Why don't you and your mma friends, make arrangements for a cross training day with a local karate place? Don't be a dojo stormer, but go in and have a cross training day, and see if you both cant learn something. Maybe you can help them use there defenses in a more alive sense. Maybe they can show you humility and some good techniques you can try in sparring. Oh and when I say there defenses, I ment the defenses they train. Don't try to force MT/boxing on them. They need to use what they already do..

I think it would be great fun or everyone.

 

[ballen0351]

And in a self defense situation, you oftentimes cannot blind a person, or crush their windpipe. For example in my case, I work with troubled young adults who need restrained. One punched a co-worker in the face, and I had to apply a Judo pin (after I "gently" took them to the ground) to insure the safety of myself, my co-worker, and the student. A couple of years ago, a good friend of mine became insanely drunk, and flipped out on another friend of mine. I had to apply a body lock on him to keep him under control. These are just two examples of me utilizing perfectly valid "ring" techniques in a self defense situation. How are those rules severely limiting the usefulness of my art? Is Karate and other TMAs somehow different than Judo/Bjj?

Needing to restrain a kid, or a drunk friend isnt really Self defense. Ive been a cop for almost 15 years if I go grab a guy to arrest him and he struggles and I take him down thats not defending myself.

For all the rules in competitive Judo, Boxing, BJJ, or wrestling, no one is crazy enough to apply such rules in a self defense situation. Further, no one doubts that any of those "sports" are perfectly viable methods of self defense.

I dont think anyone said they were not good methods of self defense.

I never said there wasn't. I'm talking about the traditional martial arts styles that refuse to compete. The ones that you stated would be severely limited because of rules.

Like what? what Traditional styles are you specifically talking about? I was speaking of Karate in general not specific styles. So if you want to talk specifics then which styles are you saying dont compete

I definitely agree. I'm simply pointing out that the only way we can objectively test a style's effectiveness is in the competitive arena. Anecdotal evidence about some awesome traditionalist is simply not enough. If a boxing gym opens up and puts out sub-par fighters, its not going to be open very long. If a Bjj school opens up and other Bjj practitioners go to that school and find out its a joke, its not going to be open very long. However, there's numerous examples of TMA scammers and phonies being open for decades.

Give it time my friend you will start seeing some sub par MMA and BJJ schools as it gets more and more popular. Your already starting to see BJJ DVD sets coming out on the market. Martial Arts are cyclical One style gets hot and schools pop up eveyrwhere and get diluted with poor teachers cashing in, Then the next big thing pops up next. Kung Fu in the 70's TKD in the 80s, Krav in the 90s BJJ in the 2000's. Thats not a knockon any of thoes styles there is and will always be really good teachers in all of them but as they get popular sub par schools pop up. I saw a TKD school the other day thats now offering BJJ classes. There is not one thing on their website to describe the BJJ teachers credentials.

Kyokushin is Japanese, and it isn't traditional. My mother is older than that style of Karate.

Again so what traditional style are you talking about? Most Okinawan Karate thats commercially taught today like Goju Ryu or Isshin Ryu isn't 100's of years old. Most of these styles are only one or two generations away from their founders

However, thank you for proving my point. Competition and sport has not dilluted Kyokushin whatsoever. It is a devastating form of Karate, highly respected in MMA circles, and it continues to evolve because of its competitive nature.

Is it? I hear lots of criticism about them since they dont punch to the face. So again there is no "perfect" art. I guess I dont know which traditional art you say dont compete

 

[jks9199]

Needing to restrain a kid, or a drunk friend isnt really Self defense. Ive been a cop for almost 15 years if I go grab a guy to arrest him and he struggles and I take him down thats not defending myself.

If you're doing it right -- it's more often OFFENSE than defense! There's no requirement for a cop to wait for the punch to be thrown to stop it, or let the guy get a few steps lead before taking him down...

A general note on the "they don't compete so they don't know what's going to work...":

I think that there's a way for almost any art to compete, if they so choose. You should be able to use your art with sufficient control that you don't automatically kill anyone who stands in front of you. The proof of this is simple: do you have training partners at the end of the class, or are you surrounded by a pile of corpses and crippled former playmates?

But... training for competition may be counter to the goals of your training, so you may choose not to do so. Some people simply like the flow and beauty of the movement, and the health benefits. Others are training for real world encounters, and don't want to do what amounts to practicing to miss, or re-engage repeatedly. The "my art is too deadly to compete with" is crap; "my goals aren't consistent with training for competition" is a very different statement.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou you keep mentioning traditional Japanese Jujutsu, yet you don't ever mention any specific style. What do you know of traditional Jujutsu? Did you actually train in a old koryu art or something later? I think that maybe some of the people with more experience in them should come and educate you on such matters.

I know of tradtional Jujutsu. The people I've rolled with claimed they knew and were studying traditional Japanese Jujutsu. One of the problems that you see in MA in general (but mainly in the TMAs) are issues of lineage and authenticity. Bujinkan is notorious for such issues. Some don't even consider it a true style of actual style. However, if you talk with a Bujinkan practitioner, they'll say they're a legit style. Who am I to argue?

This is why I'm speaking largely in general terms. The issues I'm talking about isn't limited to one TMA style, its a problem I've seen in several of them. Now a usual explanation for this is that I've never been to a "real" school of TMA, or that their style is too "deadly" for competition. I find such arguments tiresome. The fact of the matter is that over a century ago, the founder of Judo created a better method for training throws and locks. This method has been proven to be more effective in numerous exhibitions, demonstrations, competitions, etc.

Its like boxers versus martial arts. Boxers simply have a superior method of hand strikes and footwork to a lot of martial art styles. If we're training for fighting or self defense, why waste time learning an archiac method when the superior method is readily available and pretty easy to incorporate?

As JKD said below, people train for different reasons. I acknowledge and respect that. However, you should understand what your style is, and what it is not.

You need to stop spreading hatred man. I hate to tell you this, but mma need to start becoming friends with TMA and real quick like. The progressives are coming for mma and boxing and oddly football. You think that when they get done removing all the contact and fun from foot ball that they will stop there? NO they will go on to either out right ban mma, or enact such rules that make doing certain things in a match illegal. Thusly screwing and ruining mma for the perceivable future. They have been after boxing for most of this century.

I'm not spreading hatred. I'm simply sharing my experiences, that's all. I simply don't believe that the traditional way is the best way. I don't believe that the old masters had some magic formula that made them superior to modern masters of fighting arts. I simply don't buy into the deification of old masters, and the cult-like belief system that springs up around them and their exploits. Its not healthy, and it leads to numerous problems that continue to resonate throughout the MA community.

As for MMA getting banned, or adding rules, so what? I practice Judo and Bjj, and we learn the self defense concepts that have little to do with competition. However, if someone is competing, they're intelligent enough to know what they can do and can't do during the event. For example, we learn leg locks during practice, but we don't do leg locks when its time to compete.

Simple.

This is why I scratch my head when someone says that their art isn't designed for competition, because you should be able to self modify your "deadly art" for any arena, including a sporting one. Muay Thai was/is a highly brutal martial art, and its modified into a sport. However, I've run into plenty of competing MT practitioners who are perfectly capable of performing the non-competing aspects. Its as simple as them elbowing you in the temple instead of the cheek.

MMA is attracting not good people(Miguel Falco im looking at you.). Whats funny is you hold mma up on a pedestal and yet, when push came to shove, Falco fought like a untrained brawler. Showing no semblance of skill or expertise. MMA needs to stop attracting Douche bags and start holding people to a higher moral and behavioral standard.

Are you trying to say that TMAs don't attract douche bags and jerks? We both know that's far from the truth.

 

[Hanzou]

Needing to restrain a kid, or a drunk friend isnt really Self defense. Ive been a cop for almost 15 years if I go grab a guy to arrest him and he struggles and I take him down thats not defending myself.

Oh it was definitely self defense. If I wasn't trained, both situations would have escalated, and caused bodily harm to myself and other people. Isn't that why cops restrain people before things get out of hand?

I dont think anyone said they were not good methods of self defense.

You said that rules limit an art's usefulness. Yet for some reason, Bjj, Judo, Wrestling, and boxing are full of rules, and they are also good methods of self defense.

Like what? what Traditional styles are you specifically talking about? I was speaking of Karate in general not specific styles. So if you want to talk specifics then which styles are you saying dont compete

You didn't read the conversation? We were talking about old school Karate styles like Shuri-te.

Give it time my friend you will start seeing some sub par MMA and BJJ schools as it gets more and more popular. Your already starting to see BJJ DVD sets coming out on the market. Martial Arts are cyclical One style gets hot and schools pop up eveyrwhere and get diluted with poor teachers cashing in, Then the next big thing pops up next. Kung Fu in the 70's TKD in the 80s, Krav in the 90s BJJ in the 2000's. Thats not a knockon any of thoes styles there is and will always be really good teachers in all of them but as they get popular sub par schools pop up. I saw a TKD school the other day thats now offering BJJ classes. There is not one thing on their website to describe the BJJ teachers credentials.

Of course the difference is that such Bjj exponents will want to test their abilities against other Bjj schools, or to compete. That's how we expose frauds on this side of the aisle, and that's the benefit of competition. A person practicing Bjj isn't going to not want to test their abilities against other people. That's just not how the art's culture is. So they'll go around, try out their Bjj on a variety of other people, and if they see that as a brown or purple belt that they're getting subbed by white belts, they'll quickly realize that their training is a joke, and hopefully switch over.

As for the TKD school offering Bjj, maybe they have an instructor in there that is competent in Bjj and is mixing the styles together? Nothing wrong with that, and long as you're legit. If you're not legit, you will be exposed soon enough.

Is it? I hear lots of criticism about them since they dont punch to the face. So again there is no "perfect" art. I guess I dont know which traditional art you say dont compete

I never said there was a perfect art. I'm simply saying that people respect arts that back up what they claim. You won't see too many people ripping on Kyokushin, because they know that those guys fight hard and beat the tar out of each other. You won't hear a Kyokushin practitioner talk about their art being "too deadly" for a competition. They'll just ask when and where you want to throw down.

That kind of martial spirit isn't for everyone. Some people prefer to perform sword katas and sip tea. There's nothing wrong with that.

"I think simply to practice gung fu forms and karate katas is not a good way. Moreover, it wastes time and does not match the actual (fighting) situation. Some people are tall, some are short, aome are stout, some are slim. There ar various kinds of people. If all of them learn the same boxxing (i.e. martial art) form, then who does it fit?"~ Bruce Lee