Bagua Teacups

[RDG5]

Blindsage -

I assume you are referring to something very specific as 'coiling palm' that may not be the same in every Bagua lineage. As for coiling movement and energy, there is plenty in the video.

You are absolutely correct. I apologize for not watching the entire vid continuously.
I watched the intro then thought that what I skipped to was the complete exercise. Now I have watched the full vid and again - apologies.

 

[Kung Fu Wang162 193]

I was taught, use, and teach to others that it is a study of range of motion, how to build moving on a curve into the body, learning to receive and issue force from any direction, and how to coordinate the body moving from different angles. Is this not common?

People train MA for different purpose. A's approach is for combat. B's approach is for self-cultivation.

A: I train kick so I can knock down my opponent if needed.
B: I train kick so I can improve my own balance.

A: I train Bagua teacup to develop the ability/skill to break a wrist grip.
B: I train Bagua teacup to build moving on a curve into the body.

A: I train Bagua circle walking so when I walk fast around my opponent, I can turn back time and change my opponent into a new born baby.
B: I train Bagua circle walking so I can develop mobility and balance.

 

[blindsage21]

People train MA for different purpose. A's approach is for combat. B's approach is for self-cultivation.

A: I train kick so I can knock down my opponent if needed.
B: I train kick so I can improve my own balance.

A: I train Bagua teacup to develop the ability/skill to break a wrist grip.
B: I train Bagua teacup to build moving on a curve into the body.

A: I train Bagua circle walking so when I walk fast around my opponent, I can turn back time and change my opponent into a new born baby.
B: I train Bagua circle walking so I can develop mobility and balance.

Pretending these are different things only hurts your skill. But you do you.

 

[isshinryuronin52 52]

People train MA for different purpose. A's approach is for combat. B's approach is for self-cultivation.

A: I train kick so I can knock down my opponent if needed.
B: I train kick so I can improve my own balance.

A: I train Bagua teacup to develop the ability/skill to break a wrist grip.
B: I train Bagua teacup to build moving on a curve into the body.

Pretending these are different things only hurts your skill.

They are a bit different, I think. B develops the skill and A is the combat application of that skill. Many people train TMA for the physical benefits of the techniques with little interest in using them for combat. But that potential is still there if you add intention, visualization and tactics. While the physical technique remains mostly the same, the mental elements add the secret sauce.

 

[blindsage21]

They are a bit different, I think. B develops the skill and A is the combat application of that skill. Many people train TMA for the physical benefits of the techniques with little interest in using them for combat. But that potential is still there if you add intention, visualization and tactics. While the physical technique remains mostly the same, the mental elements add the secret sauce.

Techniques are fine. You have to learn technique to do technique, but the deeper body methods give you more fighting ability than individual techniques alone. To say you do one for fighting and the other for "self-cultivation" is nonsense. Yes, someone CAN do the body method development and not try to learn fighting, but they won't learn it correctly because it requires an understanding of the pressure of another person to actually understand how to do it correctly. The point of body method development IS for fighting. Not understanding that is a huge gap in both conception and skill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang162 193]

the deeper body methods give you more fighting ability than individual techniques alone.

A friend of mind tried to learn the Xingyi system.

1. A Xingyi teacher asked him to stand in San Ti Shi posture for 1 year before any Xingyi training.

2. I suggested my friend to train Xingyi Pi Quan for 1 year.

Which method can give my friend better benefit?

IMO, 2 is better than 1. My friend can't see his goal from method 1 but he can see his goal from method 2.

To see the goal and then work on the path to reach it is always better than working on the path without knowing where the goal is.

 

[isshinryuronin52 52]

The point of body method development IS for fighting. Not understanding that is a huge gap in both conception and skill.

This is only important to those who want to learn to use TMA movements for fighting. Experience in dealing with an opponent's pressure is a must to fully develop the techniques. However, if one is only interested in it for exercise, it doesn't really matter. These people can mimic combat moves, but their MA will be missing the true "martial" component.

 

[Kung Fu Wang162 193]

This is only important to those who want to learn to use TMA movements for fighting. Experience in dealing with an opponent's pressure is a must to fully develop the techniques. However, if one is only interested in it for exercise, it doesn't really matter. These people can mimic combat moves, but their MA will be missing the true "martial" component.

Some people may think by understanding the "body method", he can do almost any "technique".

In another forum, there is a discussion about "techniques". I truly don't know whether C is honest or C is just joking.

A: Does the following techniques exist in your MA system?

- MT "flying knee",
- TKD "spin hook kick",
- Karate "flying side kick",
- BJJ "jump guard", and
- boxing "superman punch".

B: Those techniques doesn't exist in my Xingyi system.
C: Those all exist in Tai chi and many many more. Anyone who can't see those 5 basic techniques in Tai chi should not be talking about Tai chi. They are obvious and there at a basic level.

 

[Same Trick107 8]

A friend of mind tried to learn the Xingyi system.

1. A Xingyi teacher asked him to stand in San Ti Shi posture for 1 year before any Xingyi training.

View attachment 34714

2. I suggested my friend to train Xingyi Pi Quan for 1 year.

Which method can give my friend better benefit?

IMO, 2 is better than 1. My friend can't see his goal from method 1 but he can see his goal from method 2.

To see the goal and then work on the path to reach it is always better than working on the path without knowing where the goal is.

But there is goal in the very name ”San ti shi”, isn’t there ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang162 193]

But there is goal in the very name ”San ti shi”, isn’t there ?

When you train

- San Ti Shi, you don't train application.
- Pi Quan, you train San Ti Shi along with application.

Same example, horse stance training has no application.

But hip throw solo training has application. When you train hip throw, you train horse stance at the same time. You can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[RDG5]

But.................I thought the topic is BaGua Teacups?
Is there a common belief that XingYi and BaGua are the same thing?
When I do teacup exercise - after loosening up waist and back with it
for a while I absolutely add the focus of block-throw-strike.
Seems we have differing POV from BaGua is a Taoist exercise to it can
be modified into a karate type skill.

 

[Xue Sheng152 6]

But.................I thought the topic is BaGua Teacups?

it was

Is there a common belief that XingYi and BaGua are the same thing?

no, other than both being considered internal. and many consider them complimentary.

When I do teacup exercise - after loosening up waist and back with it
for a while I absolutely add the focus of block-throw-strike.

yes

Seems we have differing POV from BaGua is a Taoist exercise to it can
be modified into a karate type skill.

How is can it be modified for Karate

 

[RDG5]

I can't really explain how it can be modified. I am pointing out the far
right of the spectrum. If you want to see what I am talking about go google
and visit some BaGua schools on the internet where they act like it is some sort
of karate - belt ranks and all.

 

[RDG5]

About Us - Pa-Kua International League

 

[Same Trick107 8]

When you train

- San Ti Shi, you don't train application.
- Pi Quan, you train San Ti Shi along with application.

Same example, horse stance training has no application.

View attachment 34715

But hip throw solo training has application. When you train hip throw, you train horse stance at the same time. You can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

No, Shaolin mabu(horse stance) is not an example of Xingyiquan santishi(three body posture). Santishi is not just mere standing there( that may be likewise with the Shaolin mabu, I’m not familiar with it) . While the direct visual santishi should lead the onlooker to see there’s a certain combat focus, they don’t see the essential specific mind application(s) that must be applied with the posture so to make it truly worthwhile and relevant for combat endeavors

 

[Xue Sheng152 6]

About Us - Pa-Kua International League

Oh my!
That reminds me of combat taijiquan, but done to baguazhang

Take arts like taekwondo that you know and understand, and apply it to Baguazhang, which they don’t understand. And throw in the I Ching for legitimacy.

But only reading the webpage, i could be mistaken, but it didn’t give me a good freling

 

[RDG5]

They are not alone.

 

[blindsage21]

A friend of mind tried to learn the Xingyi system.

1. A Xingyi teacher asked him to stand in San Ti Shi posture for 1 year before any Xingyi training.

View attachment 34714

2. I suggested my friend to train Xingyi Pi Quan for 1 year.

Which method can give my friend better benefit?

IMO, 2 is better than 1. My friend can't see his goal from method 1 but he can see his goal from method 2.

To see the goal and then work on the path to reach it is always better than working on the path without knowing where the goal is.

Always over simplifying a conversation into either/or statements is worthless.

 

[blindsage21]

This is only important to those who want to learn to use TMA movements for fighting. Experience in dealing with an opponent's pressure is a must to fully develop the techniques. However, if one is only interested in it for exercise, it doesn't really matter. These people can mimic combat moves, but their MA will be missing the true "martial" component.

It does matter, because much of the benefits are only realized when you understand why you are doing them under pressure, even if you aren't interested in fighting.