Master

[Kacey]

"Master", in the MA context, is a short form of "Master Instructor", and is a term of respect that denotes the person's achievement. In ITF TKD, "Master" ranks begin at VII Dan, and therefore there are rather fewer of them than there are in other organizations and/or styles that consider lower degrees of BB to be masters. When I call a VII or higher Dan "Master", I am recognizing their rank and demonstrated skill, both in the art itself and in regards to their teaching skill - rather along the lines of calling a physician or dentist "doctor", in recognition of the skills and knowledge required to attain that rank, or calling a college instructor "professor". I do not believe, for myself, that using the term "Master" in a martial arts context connotes any form of that person being my master in the religious or social (e.g. slavery) sense. As in other threads on this topic, "master" is a term with multiple meanings, and people often object to the use of "master" based on other meanings than the one intended in this context.

Do I know people who introduce themselves as "master so-and-so" in MA contexts? Yes, I do - and I find it to be appropriate in that context. Do I know people who introduce themselves as "master so-and-so" out of MA contexts? Not at present, no - and I would find it inappropriate for them to do so. For example, my father has a Ph.D. in Library Science, and is, therefore, qualified to use the term "doctor" as a term of address - but he has chosen not to do so outside the academic world (he's a college professor) because he finds it to be both inappropriate and confusing - from the time I was a child he introduced himself to my friends as "Mister" not "Doctor", because he didn't want to mislead them into thinking he was a medical doctor.

 

[Explorer]

In the circles I turn in the term Master refers to 5th dan and above ... Master Instructors. One 8th dan I know is referred to as Senior Master Instructor ... but he has us shorten it to "Tom".

I do know a man who branched off his sensei (with permission) and could now be referred to as "Grand Master" ... but he feels stupid being referred to in that way; and since he's a new grandparent I suggested "Grampa Master". I think he likes that better.

 

[monkey]

Here is what I was told Master means.I hope you see the definition to be exceptable.In the shaolin temple we start as Student to monk to Abbot to Priest to Master.They were not of rank but to let others know the time of honor -schooling - & ablities to teach has been reached to what
we can a super intendent At schools.The super was to advice in instructions in martial arts & the daily jobs.
They call him master.To Clearify one word I saw in the post Sifu dose not mean master.Thats a translations not well translated as there are over 3000 dialects in China.
sifu means father of knowlage.Dungun is master,Sijo my teachers teacher.Shr.fu in another dialect is still the same teacher of.Its ok to address as Mr. & then the name of the master.But some schools be it high school or collage some like their title name as per the sir name.They had time.Alls they ask is so little out of time & honor the title.They dont force it.
If some one force the master for me to say I turn away.My student call me by my name or Monkey.To say you dont beleave in master title-then you defy the founders of the arts-how they set it up & the structor to show some kind of recignition for the time honored.These titles go back 100s of years.To say you dont beleave & carry the title -then the art is not represented as its intent from founders.
Dont throw title as weight-respect the time even if you think only you have the right to master tilte & carry it.Be honest with your self & let honor flow were not asked & smiles return honor.Even Bruce stated 1973 interview with Ted Thomas (After all I am a master of martial arts.)

 

[matt.m]

Gee, I think master is in the eye of the beholder. I don't know, the folks that do the teaching at my studio are 3rd dan and above. With the two head teachers, one being a 5th dan tkd and the head instructor being 7th dan tkd and 5th dan hapkido they are pretty relaxed. For example, the GM will answer to GM, Master or Mr. to him just show some kind of respect the rest is inconsequential.

The mantra is that "I am teaching so you can learn, just show some level of respect. Just don't say hey bub or something ignorant.

 

[monkey]

I compleatly agree, but if they ask for respetc at gatherings ect. I diddnt hurt in any way to say ok Ill do it.Like I said if someone said Im master & you have to ----.My 1st teacher ever told me you dont have to anything.Except die.Paying taxes is optional & may result in other means.
Other then that no Have to.But a polite or common use like a hand shake Cant do damage to you so great -you denie ever to honor
even the most reverant Like Yamaguchi-Kano-Mufinie-Otsuka to name a few examples.

 

[Last Fearner]

I was just wondering how you all use the term "master" and what you think of it's use.

Master Electrician
Master Plumber
Master Mechanic
Master Painter
Master Chef
Master Sergeant
Webmaster . . . .

Master Instructor.

When one has learned, and understood a skill enough to correctly apply it without hesitation, correct their own mistakes as they make them, and identify false information when they see or hear it based on what they know, not blindly following what others have told them, then they have "mastered" the skill. A person who has "mastered" a skill, is a "Master" of that skill, and the term "Master," in that context, is appropriate, in my opinion.

A "Master Teacher," or "Master Instructor" is a person who can successfully guide others to their own understanding of the same knowledge. A sensei, sifu, sabeom, soke, shihan, and kwanjang, are all names which apply to various levels of understanding, skill, and ability to do something. Regardless of the cultural definitions of the past, these terms all refer to the relationship between knowledge, comprehension, and performance.

Those who have legitimately reached the highest levels of an art, and are recognized as the leading authorities, and experts on a subject, have it within their right to bestow upon a junior, a title which distinguishes that person as an expert, or Master of the skill. One should not create the title for themselves, however, once a senior, who has earned the titles themselves, recognizes a person as such, then it is the recipients privilege, right, and honor to use the title, and introduce themselves as such.

The title is not the problem, nor its use, it is the inappropriate use for someone who has not been properly recognized by a senior. To claim the title by one's own assessment is considered presumtuous. Also, those who have properly been recognized as a Master, might forget humility and act arrogantly. Yet, there is a fine line between being confident, and assertive within the performance, and sharing of knowledge, and being arrogant. Some people automatically assume that anyone who uses such titles are arrogant - - but such an assumption is, in itself arrogant, in my opinion.

Anyone can refuse the title if they don't like it, or disagree with it, but most do not fully understand it. Many misuse it, while others accept it without question. No one should be chastised for failing to use the term when addressing a Master Instructor, but may be taught the purpose of showing respect by addressing seniors appropriately. Those who believe in the appropriate application, under specific definition, should not be insulted or criticized because they teach the use of a title of respect and honor which was given to them.

My teacher is always "Grandmaster" . . . . inside the Dojang and outside, 24 hours a day. That is the way I was taught, and that is the way I believe it should be - - from my point of view! :ultracool

Respectfully, :asian:
Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart

 

[Gyakuto]

The term ‘master’ get used an awful lot in the USA. Is it an attempt to gain legitimacy or boost ones ego?

 

[Dirty Dog]

The term ‘master’ get used an awful lot in the USA. Is it an attempt to gain legitimacy or boost ones ego?

Or, maybe, it's used because that's how the higher ups in your organization want things done?

Personally, I'm "Mark" to pretty much anyone. Unless the higher ups are at the school that day. Then things are more formal.

I did tell my wife (who is one of my blackbelts) that I expected her to call me Master, but she just laughed and rolled her eyes.

 

[Gyakuto]

Or, maybe, it's used because that's how the higher ups in your organization want things done?

Personally, I'm "Mark" to pretty much anyone. Unless the higher ups are at the school that day. Then things are more formal.

I did tell my wife (who is one of my blackbelts) that I expected her to call me Master, but she just laughed and rolled her eyes.

If you require complete honesty, ask the wife!

Can you imagine that senior meeting/

Senior 1: Let’s make them call us master.
Senior 2: Yeah, I could easily be a master if I grew a wispy white beard.
Master 1: Done! They’ll call us ’masters’
Senior 2: Could I… you know…I’ve been wanting to say for a while….be called mistress instead?
Master 1: I told you we’d discuss this later over dinner.

 

[tkdroamer]

The term ‘master’ get used an awful lot in the USA. Is it an attempt to gain legitimacy or boost ones ego?

Sometimes both, sometime neither. I do understand it is more of a 'Western' thing as far as usage but does have strong Eastern roots. Often it is used as a marketing tool. Thrown around similar to words like genuine, custom, or special. And yes, some guys have an ego and use it heavily, whether deserved or not.
In my experience, it is used mostly in formal settings or for identity or academic purposes.
That said, my GM is the only person I can think of that I do not address by his first name, ever. It would seem really weird to say, "hello Seoung"!

 

[Oily Dragon]

The term ‘master’ get used an awful lot in the USA. Is it an attempt to gain legitimacy or boost ones ego?

It's as old as spoken language, but yeah definitely related to attempts at legitimacy in a post modern sense, man.

Which is funny because practically almost every (not all) "masters" we see out there in martial arts are clearly not. They'll say they are but anyone with at least a few active neurons can see right through it.

Master is a derivative of one of the most important Latin words, magister, which means a male authority figure.

From it we get meister, maestro, mage, maitre...master.

And I'm watching season 2 of "The Vow", the documentary series on the NXIVM cult. Not sure if you're familiar but it's worthy of discus here.

Complete with fake Judo master, literally branding women (hot iron) as his personal sex slave.

 

[Gyakuto]

That said, my GM is the only person I can think of that I do not address by his first name, ever. It would seem really weird to say, "hello Seoung"!

You may not even write his first name, tkdroamer, OK?

 

[Gyakuto]

It's as old as spoken language, but yeah definitely related to attempts at legitimacy in a post modern sense, man.

Which is funny because practically almost every (not all) "masters" we see out there in martial arts are clearly not. They'll say they are but anyone with at least a few active neurons can see right through it.

Master is a derivative of one of the most important Latin words, magister, which means a male authority figure.

From it we get meister, maestro, mage, maitre...master.

And I'm watching season 2 of "The Vow", the documentary series on the NXIVM cult. Not sure if you're familiar but it's worthy of discus here.

Complete with fake Judo master, literally branding women (hot iron) as his personal sex slave.

Master in it's modern usage, suggests 'mastery' of something. I feel that anyone with >2.35g of modesty and a rudimentary network of neurones would agree that in the MA, this is impossible...we are perpetual beginners. Additionally, don't you admire the person who waves off compliments at their incredible abilities far more than the self-proclaimed genius?

I'll see if I have access to 'The Vow'...looks interesting. How does one pronounce 'NXIVM'? 'Nex-ee-um'? Isn't that a proton pump inhibitor for heartburn?

 

[Tez3]

I know two actual masters, one of whom is female. They are farriers who have passed their Guild examinations and can be called Master Farriers. The
In the UK we still have Guilds who award 'rank' in their trades. The Guilds along with the Livery Companies go back centuries, the oldest is 867 years.
We have Master Stone Masons, Master Chimney Sweeps, Master Farriers, Master Cutlets etc. The Livery Company Dick Whittington joined is still going strong by the way.
Master to me is someone who has done their time as apprentice, journeyman then is tested to be called master. It shouldn't be different in martial arts but some people do like being called master sadly, without worrying about earning it.
Mistress, the word is used a lot in the UK but is pronounced "missus".

 

[Oily Dragon]

Master in it's modern usage, suggests 'mastery' of something. I feel that anyone with >2.35g of modesty and a rudimentary network of neurones would agree that in the MA, this is impossible...we are perpetual beginners. Additionally, don't you admire the person who waves off compliments at their incredible abilities far more than the self-proclaimed genius?

I'll see if I have access to 'The Vow'...looks interesting. How does one pronounce 'NXIVM'? 'Nex-ee-um'? Isn't that a proton pump inhibitor for heartburn?

Yeah oddly it's pronounced the same way as the other little purple pill.

The details of that cult are just astounding. This was basically a smaller Scientology that got caught and exposed before it grew as large but man, there are so many layers to the NXIVM onion. Sex slavery, Hollywood stars, mental torture and mind control...perfect for a cable series.

If you blink you might miss the Judo parts, but that stuff I really related to. The ringleader used not only fake claims of genius, but also physical grappling skills/rank (unregulated..) to win over and control his slave army.

 

[Gyakuto]

I know two actual masters, one of whom is female. They are farriers who have passed their Guild examinations and can be called Master Farriers. The

I wonder if we know the same female farrier! Is she French, a film maker, was once the Dalia Lama’s right hand person, a golf professional, didn't quite finish medical school, worked in Paris fashion and lives in Sutton Coldfield?

 

[Gyakuto]

Sex slavery, Hollywood stars, mental torture and mind control...perfect for a cable series.

Sounds like my kinda cult!

 

[isshinryuronin]

"Master" does indeed have many, many shades of meaning depending on the context. Unfortunately, this term has been greatly devalued by overuse, much like the words, "awesome" and "hero." Let's confine it to how it's used in relation to MA. In the most basic sense, it refers to someone with a high degree of skill, knowledge and experience. But, just how high?

This is equated with just a 5th degree rank in some families of TKD, for example. While this is a low rank to be considered a master compared with most other styles, branches of TKD (and any other style) are free to determine their own terminology. But its appropriateness is unique to that particular community. It certainly gives a marketing edge as the general public is unaware of such distinction. When they hear "master," thoughts of Ali, Beethoven, Steinbeck, Rembrandt, Sun Tzu and the like are usually evoked. Even guitarist Jimmy Hendrix, can be included.

What these greats have in common can provide a guide as to what constitutes a "master" in MA. Certainly, a full and complete understanding of their art's basics and ability to put them to use is one. Beyond just knowing theory, notes, words or techniques, is the ability to compose them in creative ways and perform them effortlessly in such a way that even non-fans must acknowledge their expertise. Their skill and standing also being acknowledged by others in their senior peer group.

"Master Sargeant" is a rank that is respected (and often feared) by those under his authority (and even the officers above!). Their extensive experience and training allow them to easily navigate and control their environment, able to accomplish tasks even a general would find daunting. They have a complete and intimate understanding of their military knowledge and skill, and how to use it within their sphere.

Returning to MA, the qualities discussed above give some guidance, IMO, to what I would consider a "master" to be in TMA (or the equivalent "Grand Master" in TKD). One need not be legendary as those mentioned earlier but should share a good portion of their various qualities. Titles/ranks given politically, commercially, or by oneself should be critically viewed. Let's not devalue such things. Doing so only devalues our art.

 

[Gyakuto]

I’d confine it to the head of a lineage.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I’d confine it to the head of a lineage.

The lineage head (as least in my style) has the title, "Soke," but I am with you in spirit. If the head is 10th degree, I would apply the title of "Master" to his 9th degrees as well.