GrandMaster Steve? Who qualifies as an authentic Grandmaster?

[lklawson]

So for those who see a difference between the honorifics for doctor or master; what do you think about the tradition in BJJ of referring to instructors as Professor?
Are all 3 perhaps just a different way of saying a similar thing?
If I run into my doctor on the street, I don't say hey 'Phil'. He'd be Doctor 'Smith'. Seems like the Professor honorific is used the same way... so what is so different about the word master? (besides, as Steve said, the over prevalence of abusive relationships that have occurred).
If all 3 are meant to convey an increadibly high level of skill/education in a given field of expertise, are they not more similar than different?
Is the difference mostly just the baggage that comes with the English usage of the word master?

I have a number of friends who are MD's. I almost never address them as "Doctor." I also have a number of friends, associates, and "internal customers," who have Doctorates in the sciences. Frequently they are addressed as "Doctor" in email and such.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Urban Trekker]

I have a number of friends who are MD's. I almost never address them as "Doctor." I also have a number of friends, associates, and "internal customers," who have Doctorates in the sciences. Frequently they are addressed as "Doctor" in email and such.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

A PhD, EdD, or any other research doctorate is considered to be higher than an MD. And an MD is considered to be on the same level as a JD. There's a reason I read, and I can't remember, why an MD is addressed as "doctor" and a JD is not.

Personally, I never used the term "doctor" by itself, when referencing another person. I will say "Doctor So-and-so," but never simply "doctor." That said, I refer to someone with an MD as a physician.

I typically don't even like saying "Doctor So-and-so" in reference to physicians (though I have no problem do it for someone who holds a research-based doctorate), but I will do it in a hospital or any other medical setting for ease of communication with the staff there.

This isn't for reasons related to me avoiding the use of the term "master," this is more my belief that the holders of professional degrees (MD, JD, DDS, OD, etc) and holders of research-based doctorates need to be distinguished from each other.

If I was on a plane that crashed, and a surviving flight attendant or pilot asked "Is there a doctor here" - and I had a PhD in history - I'd be that a-hole who'd waste everyone's time by raising his hand and later clarifying once asked to tend to the mortally wounded victims.

 

[caped crusader]

I think myself that a real "Grandmaster", regardless of country or martial art does not need the Title as everyone has respect for them.

 

[dvcochran]

Without doxing myself, anyone who doesn't mind using the term would beg to differ.

The fact of the matter is, I simply refuse to use the term. And it goes both ways: if anyone tried to call me "master," I'd nip that in the bud before they could even finish the word.

Speaking of key words, if you look up "master" in the dictionary, at least half the definitions reference ownership or domination over a person or animal.

All I can say is you are referencing the noun meaning only.

Master:

adjective
characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole.

are doxing myself, anyone who doesn't mind using the term would beg to differ.

The fact of the matter is, I simply refuse to use the term. And it goes both ways: if anyone tried to call me "master," I'd nip that in the bud before they could even finish the word.

Speaking of key words, if you look up "master" in the dictionary, at least half the definitions reference ownership or domination over a person or animal.

All I can say is you are looking at it only from the noun definition.

Master -

adjective
having or showing very great skill or proficiency.
main; principal.

verb
acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art).
gain control of; overcome.

I live in the deep south and believe me when I say the 'Master' ideology you are referring to is outdated and nonexistent to everyone other than the media and radicals.

 

[caped crusader]

I live in the deep south

I heard the Gals are hot there!

 

[Urban Trekker]

I heard the Gals are hot there!

I hear there's an obsession with that in the UK, but our Deep South is basically your West Country. As a matter of fact... the West Country is actually the ancestral homeland of the majority of American Deep Southerners.

 

[caped crusader]

I hear there's an obsession with that in the UK, but our Deep South is basically your West Country. As a matter of fact... the West Country is actually the ancestral homeland of the majority of American Deep Southerners.

I don´t know but they sure looked Hot in the Dukes of Hazzard ...

 

[Steve]

I would add that I do not feel @Urban Trekker or @Steve have trained under someone truly worthy of the title.

Yeah, I think that's true. The logic is screwy, but it's not wrong. I have never referred to a coach/instructor as "master"; therefore, I've never trained under someone I've considered "truly worthy of the title."

It's a circular point, though. Because I think the term "master" is often problematic in the context of martial arts, it goes without saying that I am not comfortable using the "title". I've trained under some elite BJJ practitioners, though.

And no, I am not putting the title in some mystical realm.

Err.....

But the local guy down at the gym teaching MMA/BJJ (or 'insert style'), an assistant instructor or even Most new school owner/instructors, or anyone with just a few years experience (no matter how much training time they crammed in) are qualified to hold the title.

The key word that comes to mind for me is holistic: "characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole." The 'whole', while subjective to many is completely missed by most.

Yes, waxing philosophic but accurate overall.

Logic is an essential foundation to philosophy. I actually think if you took some time to learn formal logic, you'd dig it. Would appeal to your engineer's brain, I bet. And it would help you examine your own thoughts and arguments a little more critically... keep you from jumping to so many self referential or reductive conclusions.

 

[Steve]

I heard the Gals are hot there!

LOL. The hair is bigger, if you're into that.

 

[caped crusader]

LOL. The hair is bigger, if you're into that.

on the head yeah...

 

[cane56]

Hello. Thanks for replying to my post, and just to clarify, I, no way claim to be a Grand Master, or even a master. I was just asking a question that I thought was interesting.

I am what I am, an individual with experience in various areas of the martial arts. Some experiences I have had have been good (and painful at the same time), and other experiences have lead me to my own opinions and conclusions, which i will keep to myself.

Anyway, i don't think my OP gave the impression that I, myself wanted to set myself up as a GM.
I asked the question because i don't know the answer.

Anyway. I find the Grand Master term / phenomena quiet interesting. Haven met several people who were known by the Grand Master term. Later on, I now reflect on what all this means, if anything.

I read in the history of some of the Japanese Ju Jitsu Schools, that before the era people were award belts. people were instead awarded certificates to teach by their Sensei.

Later on, I believe Prof Jigoro Kano introduced the Kyu Grade idea and the black belt standard.
Which I believe was developed from his influence as an educator as a profession, introducing the kyu grade and black belt system as an incentive to help people focus on learning, as well as rewarding students who had achieved competency.

According to legend, this kyu / black belt system standard was taken from the grade system for people who were learning to swim. A system that was adopted by loads of other martial arts.

I am not sure where the idea of creating different levels of black belt came from, although I am aware that Prof Jigoro Kano did promote some to 10th Dan grade in his life time. So, perhaps that also was an invention of Prof Kano. Any one know the true story behind Dan Grades?...

GM Ed K Parker had the title Grand Master, although i do not know if others gave him this title or he gave it to himself. He was the founder of his system of karate, which explained was a hybrid martial art system and different to traditional karate systems, as it was developed from his experience as a street fighter on the streets of Honolulu.

Perhaps his title was taken from the Freemason standard. Which was and still is very popular in the US.
It would also explain why GM Parker also used the word Degree instead of Dan. Although this may also be due to GM Ed Parker being a graduate with a degree. I can not say (perhaps i will ask one of the 9th dan's i know the next time i meet them in the street).

From what I know about GM Ed Parker's lineage, he was taught by several different teachers before he formulated his own style. Interestingly enough, his lineage came from Japanese and Chinese roots.

James Mitose was one of GM Parker Snr's first teachers. James Mitose was a Japanese American who brought Kosho-Ryu Kenpo Jiu Jitsu to America from Japan.

Later on, GM Parker, also learnt Kenpo from William Chow, another student of James Mitose, who received his black belt from Mitose.

Well, I still don't really know who introduced the term Grand Master, nor know what it means.
Perhaps Head Master is its equal.

I think that GM Ed K Parker must have been elected to 10th dan gradually over time, as i have books which he has written with photo's of him on the front cover with a lower degree belt.
And I also have feint memories of the earlier seminars that i attended where his belt was not a 10th degree.

What that all means, I do not know.

A lot of good Martial Artist came out of the Y. Great example Jim Harrison (Ronin). He started Judo in the YMCA and became a brown belt until his instructor went elsewhere. He taught the class as a brown belt until a man walked in and asked if he taught Karate. Mr. Harrison at the time didn't know what the man was saying. They had heard of a striking art, that Mr. Harrison thought was pronounced kaaa raut. He trained as a student of Karate while teaching this man Judo. He traveled the Midwest finding any and all that could teach him anything. Most of the early practitioners we're military people that were stationed in Korea or elsewhere in the east. He even created his own style at a tournament where they asked him style, he put down bushidokan. After the tournament it was now a style. Even trained under Bob Kurth a so called navy commando with only a knife! I'm not here to knock a style or a man. Sensei Harrison won many American titles in Judo as well as blood and guts full contact tournaments. Even into his 60s he won tournaments in the masters division. But because most of our teaching came from service men teaching in small school's in the 50s and 60s, who gives the title of Master? In all belt divisions, is a bell curve. Some skate by, some dedicate thier lives. Who do you want to learn from?