C
chufeng
Guest
Then change it to "Really OK with Blades."
:rofl:
chufeng
:rofl:
chufeng
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
There is no one, and I really mean no one in any martial arts genre, discipline or style, that warrants the title "master."
Ever.
The ones that would insist on being called that are most certainly unworthy of such a title.
The ones that would be worthy of such a title, would never allow themselves to be referred to in that manner, in person or otherwise.
I once heard a saying that "a certain test to determine your worthiness for sainthood is simply that, if you can conceive of yourself as one, you have more work to do."
Same thing goes here.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Ever.
The ones that would insist on being called that are most certainly unworthy of such a title.
The ones that would be worthy of such a title, would never allow themselves to be referred to in that manner, in person or otherwise.
I once heard a saying that "a certain test to determine your worthiness for sainthood is simply that, if you can conceive of yourself as one, you have more work to do."
Same thing goes here.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
F
fringe_dweller
Guest
I think the whole concept of "Master ***" is very similar to the whole debate over bowing. It's all a matter of what the context is that it is being referred to in. What's right to me may be wrong to you. When a student attains a blackbelt in our system they are referred to as Sir *** or Maam *** by all students or instructors - just as a respectful thing since they have put in the time and effort. The only person called Master is our the Chief Instructor of our gyms - and that seems to be more of something which is imposed on the students via the senior bbs. Once again it is done to show our respect to the man who has made the organisation what it is today and without whom none of us would be where we are.
It would be interesting to see the differing views based on art types - ie KMA, CMA, FMA etc
Respectfully,
It would be interesting to see the differing views based on art types - ie KMA, CMA, FMA etc
Respectfully,
white belt
Brown Belt
I recognize the term "Master" as a word equivalent to "Master's Degree". Plain and simple. It has no religious connotation to me. I don't think of "Igor" groveling to Baron Von Frankenstein. 
I don't think of "Renfield" referring to Dracula. No ultimate power. I look at "Assistant Instructor" as an Associates Degree. An "Instructor" to me is a Bachelors Degree. "Master Instructor" means Masters Degree. "Grand Master" means P.H.D. to me. Plain people who excel at various levels in their choice of endeavor.
My "Master Instructor" was promoted to "Grand Master" one day. How did I find out? I looked in the new phone book delivered to my home. In the phone book ad. he was listed as "9th Dan Grand Master". I congratulated him when seeing him next and asked when it happened. He replied "Oh, a few months ago". I informed the other students ASAP. They all had a rare opportunity to congratulate him after so many instances where he had congratulated them for their achievements. I then taught all the students how to say "Kwan Chang Nim", Korean for Grand Master.
Outside of the DoJang "Mister" is fine to him.
I have seen others in TKD, and various other systems, who could use a little humility when rank comes along. They inspire threads such as these.
white belt
I don't think of "Renfield" referring to Dracula. No ultimate power. I look at "Assistant Instructor" as an Associates Degree. An "Instructor" to me is a Bachelors Degree. "Master Instructor" means Masters Degree. "Grand Master" means P.H.D. to me. Plain people who excel at various levels in their choice of endeavor.My "Master Instructor" was promoted to "Grand Master" one day. How did I find out? I looked in the new phone book delivered to my home. In the phone book ad. he was listed as "9th Dan Grand Master". I congratulated him when seeing him next and asked when it happened. He replied "Oh, a few months ago". I informed the other students ASAP. They all had a rare opportunity to congratulate him after so many instances where he had congratulated them for their achievements. I then taught all the students how to say "Kwan Chang Nim", Korean for Grand Master.
Outside of the DoJang "Mister" is fine to him.
I have seen others in TKD, and various other systems, who could use a little humility when rank comes along. They inspire threads such as these.
white belt
D
Despairbear
Guest
I am very selective about who I would consiter a master I have never met one. I woudl tenitevly say there are as many as 10 masters ever, perhaps as few as 4.
Despair Bear
Despair Bear
I think the term 'master' is grossly over-used. Just pull up the yellow pages under "Karate" and see for yourself...
I think a lot of this has to do with the western ego. People need to be fed. If you look in Japanese culture, Shihan (what we view as "Master") is broken down into "Model Teacher". Nothing of mastery in the title...yet in the idea of a Shihan, that's who they are.
Just like 'expert', I don't believe there is anything such as a Master. When we study under extraordinary individuals, we often tag them as masters...but speaking to them...how many of them agree?
How many computer experts do you know? How many are truly experts? (answer is none..you can never learn it all)
I think a lot of this has to do with the western ego. People need to be fed. If you look in Japanese culture, Shihan (what we view as "Master") is broken down into "Model Teacher". Nothing of mastery in the title...yet in the idea of a Shihan, that's who they are.
Just like 'expert', I don't believe there is anything such as a Master. When we study under extraordinary individuals, we often tag them as masters...but speaking to them...how many of them agree?
How many computer experts do you know? How many are truly experts? (answer is none..you can never learn it all)
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Important point to remember here - while in Japan there are titles such as shihan, hanshi, kyoshi and renshi, they are never used as a form of address! You may refer to someone in writing with those titles, but you would never call someone "Shihan/Hanshi/Kyoshi/Renshi So-and-so." Sensei is just fine, and is a form of address common not only to martial arts, but to school teachers, tutors, doctors, dentists and attorneys... Don't even get me started on the imaginary title of soke... :angry:
And I think that is the whole point. The only schools I know of that routinely make use of the title "master" are Korean schools, and bad schools of other national origins... Everytime I have walked into a school where the teacher was advertised as "Master So-and-so," or met someone who said "I'm Master So-and-so," the experience ended badly (usually with the revelation that the so-called master was far from being worthy of such a title). I am not going to address the Korean martial arts usage of the term - I have never studied anything with a Korean origin, and I don't want to misrepresent nor insult anyone who has. Suffice it to say that it is about even money whether "master" is appropriate or not when dealing with Korean martial arts "masters..."
The only "computer experts" I have run into were the same people everyone warned me against letting anywhere near my computer...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Very true...
Sensei is commonly seen as 'teacher'...in our straight-forward and generic language, that's pretty accurate. It's more "One who has gone before".
However...in reference to Soke, it is a real title. Anytime someone is handed something as the head of a part of a lineage, even in business, the term is used. Many Koryu Bujutsu schools use this term.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
There was a post on E-budo a while back, I think by Guy Powers, of a link to a report written by a Japanese man on the word soke.
I understood the report to imply that the word has very little actual use in Japan, and is mostly confined to recent years... Most Japanese also, from what I understand, have no idea what the word means...
Also, outside of Hatsumi, I don't know of any "famous" (not that that qualifies anything, but being from a CMA primarily I don't know too many JMA names) heads of systems that use the term...
Whatever.
Its use in the US has been totally bogus from what I have seen. There is only one American that I know of who has a legitimate claim to that title (his name escapes me right now, but he is a koryu teacher of a sword and jujutsu style, I think), and far too many that have miraculously been granted that title by other organizations.
Personally, I think American styles (i.e. style practiced and taught by Americans in America) should teach the terms to their students properly or dispose of them entirely. I believe the cultural heritage of an art should go along with it, but like all things traditional, when the tradition becomes a hindrance to the style, it should be done away with. Since most Americans have little interest in learning other languages (so it seems, anyway; hell, most folks can't even use English all that well, much less a foreign tongue...), I would rather lose that part of my art than have it cheapened by the language's misuse. I point to examples of pseudo-Japanese arts taught by a person using the title sifu, and other such combinations...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
I understood the report to imply that the word has very little actual use in Japan, and is mostly confined to recent years... Most Japanese also, from what I understand, have no idea what the word means...
Also, outside of Hatsumi, I don't know of any "famous" (not that that qualifies anything, but being from a CMA primarily I don't know too many JMA names) heads of systems that use the term...
Whatever.
Its use in the US has been totally bogus from what I have seen. There is only one American that I know of who has a legitimate claim to that title (his name escapes me right now, but he is a koryu teacher of a sword and jujutsu style, I think), and far too many that have miraculously been granted that title by other organizations.
Personally, I think American styles (i.e. style practiced and taught by Americans in America) should teach the terms to their students properly or dispose of them entirely. I believe the cultural heritage of an art should go along with it, but like all things traditional, when the tradition becomes a hindrance to the style, it should be done away with. Since most Americans have little interest in learning other languages (so it seems, anyway; hell, most folks can't even use English all that well, much less a foreign tongue...), I would rather lose that part of my art than have it cheapened by the language's misuse. I point to examples of pseudo-Japanese arts taught by a person using the title sifu, and other such combinations...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Agreed! I think it's rediculous (outside of Angier sensei) for any westerner to use the term Soke. Unless you have been handed a ryuha line from Japan, you are not a Soke. Yet many "headmasters" do this to sound more traditional.
I believe the gentleman you're referring to is Don Angier, Soke of Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei.
Katori Shinto ryu, Asayama Ichiden ryu, Daito ryu (Kondo sensei being the Soke-dairi), Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho and many others outside of Hatsumi sensei's spectrum use the term. It needs to be noted though, that some lineages have the martial side of the ryuha headed by the Shihanke...while the Soke is reserved for heading religous ceremonies.
I believe the gentleman you're referring to is Don Angier, Soke of Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei.
Katori Shinto ryu, Asayama Ichiden ryu, Daito ryu (Kondo sensei being the Soke-dairi), Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho and many others outside of Hatsumi sensei's spectrum use the term. It needs to be noted though, that some lineages have the martial side of the ryuha headed by the Shihanke...while the Soke is reserved for heading religous ceremonies.
white belt
Brown Belt
The title "Master Instructor" seems to cause people to think that someone is claiming the lessons are over or something. Any "Master" who thinks that is no Master. A Master title is an indication of a high level of acheivement. Not that they know all. Here is where a lot of the confusion lies. A Master Carpenter is always learning new innovations as technology evolves. So too a Master in MA. There are plenty of fakes who posture and egotistical bullys and I recognize that. But it still does not diminish the existence of someone who bears the title in a respectable manner. If someone has a problem with acknowledging an accredited Master, that displays care and humility towards others with good manners, then may be the potential students "cup is full". Not vice versa. In simple terms, maybe their personal ego won't allow someone else to be acknowledged in a teacher's role. Who then is the "know it all"?
Spreading happiness everywhere,
white belt
Spreading happiness everywhere,
white belt
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Yes, Mr. Angier is the person I was speaking of...
I hope to be starting up Shinto Muso-ryu Jo soon (fingers, toes and eyes are crossed!), so I will likely learn more of the koryu terminology through that. Thanks for the education!
You are dead on the money. But a master carpenter doesn't go around the construction site making people call him "Master Bob."
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
I hope to be starting up Shinto Muso-ryu Jo soon (fingers, toes and eyes are crossed!), so I will likely learn more of the koryu terminology through that. Thanks for the education!
You are dead on the money. But a master carpenter doesn't go around the construction site making people call him "Master Bob."
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
white belt
Brown Belt
Good point! My GM does not demand it for himself, the students uphold that etiqutte for him. My students uphold the title "Instructor" for me by calling me such. I don't demand it. I am not their "Boss". As in "Bob is the Boss". "How we doin' Boss?", etc.
My "cup" overfloweth,
white belt
My "cup" overfloweth,
white belt
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Their respect for etiquette is admirable. Don't take my comments to mean that I am dismissing everything entirely... I know the Korean styles are big on the whole "master" title. The style(s) I studied isn't (aren't). Good for them for having such discipline.
My students uphold the title "Instructor" for me by calling me such. I don't demand it. I am not their "Boss". As in "Bob is the Boss". "How we doin' Boss?", etc.
So they call you "Instructor Bill?" Or just "Mister?" I'm curious...
When I was in Japan, I insisted that the students not refer to me by anything other than my first name. Never worked. Even though they were, to a single person, older than I am, they all insisted on calling me sensei. Even when I informed them that by their language, culture and etiquette it was inappropriate for them to use that term, they simply bit their lip, sucked in air through their teeth and said "yes, but you are our sensei in budo, so we will use it anyway."
There just is no winning sometimes...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
white belt
Brown Belt
Yes, I am called Instructor "Bill" in the DoJang. Sometimes just "Bill". Outside the DoJang "Bill", when addressing me.
Here is one example displaying my views and my detractors:
I went to a tournament last year, wearing a suit and tie, and was introduced to a newly appointed "Master" (caucasian) and later went to ask him a passing question. He firmly looked at me when I said his name and he said, in a booming voice, "THAT'S MASTER SUCH AND SUCH!" I politely said "excuse me" and ignored him the rest of the gathering. He did not know my rank and even if I were a white belt, that was not a good exchange.
On the flipside I have had 8th and 9th Dans introduce a 4th or 5th Dan to me as "Master such and such". A higher rank introducing a lower rank with "Master" out of respect for his personal development thus far. The aforementioned "newly appointed Master" must have called in "sick" the day that particular etiqutte was shared.
Yilquan 1, if you move as quickly across the floor as you do through these threads, good luck to your sparring partners!
white belt
Here is one example displaying my views and my detractors:
I went to a tournament last year, wearing a suit and tie, and was introduced to a newly appointed "Master" (caucasian) and later went to ask him a passing question. He firmly looked at me when I said his name and he said, in a booming voice, "THAT'S MASTER SUCH AND SUCH!"
I politely said "excuse me" and ignored him the rest of the gathering. He did not know my rank and even if I were a white belt, that was not a good exchange.On the flipside I have had 8th and 9th Dans introduce a 4th or 5th Dan to me as "Master such and such". A higher rank introducing a lower rank with "Master" out of respect for his personal development thus far. The aforementioned "newly appointed Master" must have called in "sick" the day that particular etiqutte was shared.
Yilquan 1, if you move as quickly across the floor as you do through these threads, good luck to your sparring partners!
white belt
S
SRyuFighter
Guest
Thats kind of cool that they call you instructor bill.
Congratulations! I trained briefly in Shinto Muso ryu with Chuck Clark here in Tempe. Unfortunately time and money won out and I only worked on the Seta Gata. It's truly a wonderful koryu.
It's wonderful how the 'hombu' work. A handful of Menkyo Kaidensha all sharing in teaching. When one teaches, the others attend. Very humble! The previous Soke did not pass the ryuha on, yet passed on three (i believe?) menkyo kaiden.
What flavor might you be studying?
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
With luck, I will be training under Phil Relnick in Lynnwood... I have an "interview" of sorts to meet him and let him get to know me tomorrow evening. His dojo is private, so he screens all who come a-knockin'.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Nah. I have what I call the "garbage disposal" approach to fighting...
I am harmless. I sit there, everybody knows I'm there, I get used for what I can do for people, and everybody is happy.
But, stick an offending limb into it, and I will return the bloody stump to the ne'er-do-well for having had the audacity to approach someone as fat, old, broken and unoffensive as myself with malicious intent...
Have a great day!
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Very cool. The group that I was with was under Relnick sensei as well. Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to meet with him during one of his seminars down here.
He is also a Menkyo Kaiden of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu as well as Shinto Muso ryu...
Good luck with the meeting. I've never heard a cross thing of the man..
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