GrandMaster, Master, Whats next????

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks

In another thread regarding a totaly different subject I recieved alot of replies talking about Grand Masters, Masters etc. I have to tell you I disagree with the term Grandmaster and Master. I think that the orignial meaning of Master is far different than what ppl see it as today. It seems nearly every Tom, Dick,, Harry and BS artist out there have labeled themselves or promoted themselves as a Master or Grand Master. Dear God give me a break. Ive been a student of the Martial Sciences for just over 35 years and hold a 7th Dan. Not once and I do mean not once have I ever called or referred about myself as a Master, Grand Master. When I performed seminars or worked as a judge or promoter I did have others announce me as Master but I cant think of a time when I didnt take the time to correct that and simply call myself San of Shihan Sanhodo.
So, My question is this, What do you feel are some of the requirements for someone to earn such a title? Im just curious and of course all comments and opinions are welcome. Dont just browse, have or grow a set and leave your comments.
Thanks again
San

 

[James Kovacich]

For starters a 5th Dan today is not what it was when a lot of us started training. Actually, none of the ranks are. Tests every 2 months, a black belt in a year.

But when I started in the arts in 1973, I couldn't even see being a brown belt. Martial arts were fairly new to the public. Even here in the San Francisco Bay Area, schools were pretty far apart, but they were picking up steam.

Today the USA is saturated with martial arts. Natural evolution. How many millions of students have trained in the arts since the "explosion" of the '70's?

I think it's natural that there is such a high number of black belts and master instructors today. The real question lies within todays standards.

 

[Cruentus]

It depends on what definition that one puts on the term "master," or the martial culture from which the term came from.

Some people interpret the term "master" with a very strict criteria. With this criteria, almost no human being could ever be a "master" or "grandmaster."

Some people use the term in a very common way, where every instructor and assistant instructor is refered to as "master so-and-so."

Some refuse to use the term at all. It may be that no human coould ever fit the criteria of what they think a "master" is. Or it could be a biblical thing, where they take a literal interpretation of the King James Version of the bible where it says "there is only one true master." Regardless, they are just uncomfortable using it.

I don't think any of this matters. What matters is that people are true to themselves, and the public. This means that they are true to their backgrounds, and the meaning of their titles. What is important is that they are being ethical and not trying to mislead others.

For example, I use the old European and Western Martial Arts interpretation of the title. So the TULISAN tactical training instructors Gild has a set criteria based on this interpretation. My instructors Gild goes by probationary Gild member, member, apprentice instructor, instructor/craftsman, master instructor, and grandmaster. Here is the criteria of Master and GM, verbatum from my site:

Master Instructor: If one decides to remain with The Gild after achieving the Instructor Craftsman certification, then one may eventually be awarded Master Instructor by The Gild. One attains this through merit and skill, and there is no time frame set on achieving this (although it is generally expected that one should be a veteran of the combative arts for about 20 years, give or take).

Grandmaster: The Grandmaster title is awarded by The Gild on Skill and Merit alone. Like the Master Instructor level, there is no time frame or set criterion for this. Yet, it is generally expected that a Grandmaster is a 40-year veteran of the combative arts.

You see, the set criteria is there. There is no dishonesty or misleading regarding the title. If one is awarded this title from the instructors Gild, it is because they fit the time criteria, and the senior members of the Gild voted and certified the title.

The problem isn't the title "master" or "Grandmaster." The problem is poor ethics, and lying and misleading in the martial arts. As long as one isn't misleading the publicor behaving unethically, one can use any title they wish, in my opinion.

Paul

 

[dearnis.com]

I prefer grand poobah myself.

 

[TigerWoman]

Don't have a set nor want any. When I was high blue, I remember this polite discussion with our master and a women's class about why our master deemed that we should always address him as master and bow every time we see him first time. (he has lately let up on this)

Growing up in United States, ingrained in my psyche, master was a form of address for a young boy. Then it was soon learned that the connotation of master was one of being also an owner of slaves, not good. This goes along with learning in social studies that masters were conquerors and from history not usually benevolent conquerors. Then, later, a masters was also a degree earned for completing a set of educational requirements, good this time, highly regarded.

Now, I learn from our master that this means his authority. Well, okay, he has authority as the teacher, owner of the school, certificate of 6th dan showing proficiency but that's it! He is not authority over everyone's life. He is not the master conqueror. He is the master with the degree showing he has the knowledge and ability to teach. That is how I reconciled finally to calling him master to others. As in he is the one you need to talk to. Like in Dr. Nobody. Trouble is, is that in his mind, he is still the conqueror. So I just call him Sir to his face.

A humble person, who doesn't require others to call him master, would have even more earned the title in my opinion. And it would be also be more easy to give him the respect and deference desired (call me master) due for the work he has put in to the art. Once someone spouts off about how great he is, it turns me off, as all I can think of, is that he really is a buffoon touting himself. And he really hasn't "mastered" himself.

I expect a master to hold to higher set of conduct just like any teacher. If part of the curriculum is to discuss integrity, respect, self-control, courtesy, I fully expect him to hold to those standards or show humility about it, ie apologize when wrong. Personally, I don't think this part is really taught in dojangs to adults but helps with children. But a master questioning your values, better be on high ground himself.

A grandmaster, is not in my picture, but from my viewpoint, is a teacher/mentor of the masters to grow their schools out, network, to contribute to the art, and to be more involved on a national or international level if possible. Like a CEO or a PhD. Loyalty to a CEO, is non-existent in corporate America, and similarly, it is increasing becoming an extinct eastern notion for masters to be loyal to their grandmaster with all the politics and fighting. But that is another subject, which I have no involvement in. So I should read the other thread, maybe... TW

 

[Flatlander]

The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.
Their wisdom was unfathomable.
There is no way to describe it;
all we can describe is their appearance.

They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream.
Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.
Courteous as a guest.
Fluid as melting ice.
Shapable as a block of wood.
Receptive as a valley.
Clear as a glass of water.

Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
till the right action arises by itself?

The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
Not seeking, not expecting,
she is present, and can welcome all things.

- Lao Tzu
(translation by Stephen Mitchell)
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Personally, I am of the opinion that anyone who asks or demands to be called master by anyone at any time is comprehensively unaware of what a master is.

 

[terryl965]

Well I'm a4th in TKD and I never have my students call me Master, Mt Master is GOD plain and simple until someone proves me wrong this is how I believe.
Terry Lee Stoker studing for over 40 years.

 

[Miles]

I don't know what the next buzzphrase title will be...don't really care.

A master or grandmaster is simply an instructor. The differentiation comes in who are his/her students.

If you refer to yourself or demand others refer to you as "Master" or "Grandmaster", you probably are not one. If your instructor refers to you as "Master", you probably are one.

Miles

 

[bignick]

If your instructor refers to you as "Master", you probably are one.

I think that's a pretty good guideline.

This discussion actually came up tonight after jujutsu. I was talking to my instructor and we were all just sitting around, chatting, which is a very important part of martial arts. :wink: But somehow we got on the subject of titles, and apparently, japanese martials never used to use the title master. That was reserved for people and instructors that were deceased. Also, he was saying how the title shihan was more akin to flag bearer or supporter of the school, instead of meaning things like master. Where someone, like a businessman would support a school financially because he believed it was important, for his children or employees, etc. So the businessman may be given a title like shihan, due to the fact that he is a major supporter, either financially or otherwise, of the school.

 

[Sin]

I belive that to be called grandmaster you have to be elderly, been training most of your life, and someone everyone respects. That should be the requirements. now I consider myself inexperinced when it comes to traditions and system requirments, so if you could enlighten me it would be appresiated.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Within the criteria established by our organization and the WTF, I am a Master. That is a title or level of instruction. However, I personally don't like to be called "Master" because it has cannotations I am not comfortable with-supreme knowlege, slavery etc. I prefer "Instructor" myself. If I am talking formally with other Instructors 4th Dan or above, I will use Mr. or Master out of respect, not out of obligation. Lower ranking students will refer to me as Master or Mr. out of respect. I do not demand this. I do not refer to myself as Master because that infers too much self righteousness on my part. Although I know people who do.

As stated before, if you refer to yourself as Master, you aren't one.

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't think the question was about being "called a master" but it definately is a part of the whole question. In regards to the original questioner, and based by the "old standards" as it sounds he abides, 35 years is a long time but would it really be a 7th dan?

Thats my point. He was not the only one promoted by his Sensei and his Sensei is one of many. Evolution happens. It can't be stopped. Ones rank is only good for their affiliation(s). It carries no weight in anyone else organization and ALL organizations have skeletins in the closet. So why question?

I think another part of the question should be about how the arts have evolved.

 

[47MartialMan]

What is in the name?
Mastery of what?
Peers calling you this?
Age=experience/knowledge/wisdom?
Ego/self gradification?
Delusions of grandeur?

"Master" is a term per a individual definition and/or opinion.