master rank

[mograph]

Some are called "master" when still quite young.

It's a British thing, you know, short pants and all that. My English grandmother liked to use "master" when addressing postcards to me when I was a boy.

 

[JR 137]

My former Sensei had great insight into the term master; he viewed it as someone who's mastered something relative to others. No outright mastery of a martial art, but mastery compared to most others. And master doesn't mean one to be subservient to.

I completely agree with his analysis, and he wasn't a "master" at the time.

 

[Danny T]

The major difference between "Sifu" and "coach" is, A Sifu will have responsibility to bail your student out of jail. A coach doesn't have that kind of responsibility. The term Sifu has the father-son type of relationship.

I believe that would depend on how deep the relationship is between the teacher and the student and it matters not if one were call Sifu or Coach.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The major difference between "Sifu" and "coach" is, A Sifu will have responsibility to bail your student out of jail. A coach doesn't have that kind of responsibility. The term Sifu has the father-son type of relationship.

Not necessarily. If I were in jail, my old coach would have been one of the first people I called, maybe even the first. He would have bailed me out in a second. My sensei (not sifu but same idea name-wise) would be pretty far down on that list.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I think you should adhere to the common practice of your art. In Kukkiwon Taekwondo it is pretty standard to call 4 Dan and above master. Although I don't personally feel the need for a title like that, I feel it would be unfair for me to teach my students not to call other instructors by that title. Not everyone who uses the title "master" has the same reasons for doing so. We follow the accepted etiquette. Some people may abuse the title and attach extra significance to it, but I don't want to force my personal biases onto my students in situations like this.


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[KenpoMaster805]

we dont used master in American kenpo thats only in Taekwondo we just only used Sifu when adressing an instructor

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The difference between Sifu and teacher is:

- Sifu is teacher-disciple relationship. A disciple ceremony is needed.
- Teacher is teacher-student relationship. No ceremony is needed.

You can have many teachers but you should only have one Sifu.

 

[Rough Rider]

Things are sometimes a little odd at my TKD school. 4th Dan is the minimum rank to be a master, but it is not automatic. A separate test is required.

I've seen people advance to 4th and be referred to as "Instructor Jones", then a year or so later test again and thereafter be known as "Master Jones". There is one who did not test for master until after he was a 5th Dan, but that made more sense as he is rather young (though very talented).

There was one occasion a few years ago when a school owner from another school (4th Dan) came to ours to test for master, so I guess this policy stretches across our association. (Virginia State TKD ASSN)

 

[geezer]

The difference between Sifu and teacher is:
- Sifu is teacher-disciple relationship. A disciple ceremony is needed.
- Teacher is teacher-student relationship. No ceremony is needed.
You can have many teachers but you should only have one Sifu.

True enough in traditional Chinese martial arts. I was just a student for a few years before I did the bai-shi ceremony and became a disciple or to-dai (徒弟) of my old Chinese Sifu back about about '83. I no longer belong to his association or study with him, but he is still my Sifu (師父).

On the other hand the term sifu written with different characters can be used just to denote a person of notable skill or accomplishment. In this sense any instructor can be called a sifu (師傅), but they are not your Sifu (師父)!

At seminars, etc. where several instructors and many students are present, we do not confuse the students by insisting that each remember the exact familial relationship they have with each visitor, be they an elder or younger uncle, (si-pak/si-sok) or great-uncle, cousin, etc. Instead we just have them refer to each instructor as "sifu so-and so". For example all the students of my kung-fu brothers or hing-dai just call me sifu (師傅) Steve.

Here's another example for those not in the Chinese martial arts, but who saw any of the IP Man movies, you may have noticed that after achieving prominence, Ip Man's neighbors and even strangers would address him as "Ip sifu", using the term sifu as "master" (師傅), not as "teacher-father" (師父).

 

[Tames D]

It's a British thing, you know, short pants and all that. My English grandmother liked to use "master" when addressing postcards to me when I was a boy.

My mother did that too, when I was young. Still does it when sending letters to my kids.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I guess in order to have a solid answer, everyone would have to agree on what a Master is. I have trained folks who just earned their "master belt" in some style and wanted me to call them Master...I smiled and called them by their first name. I have heard of Eternal Grand Master...beat that one! Where I train, one is a student until one can enter the Menkyo training system wherein they are trained to be Assistant Instructor, Instructor, Trainer, etc...it has nothing to do with mastery of technique but rather mastery of teaching methods...don't take this the wrong way...you gotta be good at what you do!

Why not simply honor the tradition of their system, rather than insisting upon your own usage? When my friend Mike is teaching and I'm present, he's "Guru Mike" (because that's the tradition in his lineage). If I visit someone whose style recognizes her rank with the honorific "Master [last name]", then I call her "Master [last name]". When I teach, I'm "Mr. Seymour" (because that's our tradition) - though I ask students to call me "Gerry" outside the school, because that's my personal preference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This doesn't directly apply to the OP, but here's my .02. I've never been overly fond of the term "master," as it is an ambiguous term, that many inside the arts don't fully understand, and nearly no one outside of the martial arts understand. Sah Bum was described to me as "teacher of teachers." I like that, as it best describes the responsibility of the rank. I teach other black belts to be better teachers themselves. I have not mastered anything, as there is always something to improve upon, no matter the age or rank.

To answer the OP, I am a 6th dan, which under my association is a master rank.

I've never taken mastery to be synonymous with perfection. Mastery implies depth of understanding, in my opinion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Speaking for myself, if I taught, I would prefer "coach" over "sifu" or "sensei" because, outside of a highly formalized system, I see the adoption of an honorific from outside my culture as putting distance between me and my students; a distance I don't think I've earned or desire. Having taught in community college, I realize that there needs to be an optimal distance between teacher and student, but in a mostly English-speaking martial arts class, I would see "coach" as representing the optimum. But first name would be fine, too.

However, if the class used non-English (e.g. Chinese or Japanese) vocabulary frequently and consistently, I would see the point in my being addressed as "sifu" or "sensei" in order to create a consistent environment.

It just might be my experience or preference. Every guy I've attended class under preferred our using his first name, and the terminology used has been English when it came to techniques or methods. However, the exception has been the elderly Chinese gent who I study under now: all his students, young or old, Chinese or Anglo, call him "sifu" out of respect.

Everywhere I've trained has been a bit different. Some prefered first names, some used Japanese honorifics, and others just "Mr." and "Mrs.". In our art, we mostly use "Mr." and "Mrs.", and fall back to the Japanese honorifics sometimes (moreso in some schools). To me, it's just a way of honoring the traditions of the art and maintaining a link to the Japanese origins.

 

[Blindside]

we dont used master in American kenpo thats only in Taekwondo we just only used Sifu when adressing an instructor

Not quite, in American Kenpo the 8th through 10th Degrees are titled; Associate Master, Master, Senior Master. These aren't titles that you would use in class, that would be "Mr." for most AK schools or in my lineage like yours we held onto "Sifu."

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I've never taken mastery to be synonymous with perfection. Mastery implies depth of understanding, in my opinion.

I don't think many (if any) martial artists see master rank to be synonymous with perfection, but I've met many non-martial artists who equate that title with perfection.

 

[geezer]

Last I heard, back about 2005, my old sifu promoted himself from Grandmaster, with the rank of 10th Level Master of Comprehension to 11th Level Master of Almightyness.

Hmmm. Master of Almightyness. Brings this to mind:

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't think many (if any) martial artists see master rank to be synonymous with perfection, but I've met many non-martial artists who equate that title with perfection.

There are plenty outside the MA (and even some inside) who hold the black belt in the same esteem. I still use those, too.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Last I heard, back about 2005, my old sifu promoted himself from Grandmaster, with the rank of 10th Level Master of Comprehension to 11th Level Master of Almightyness.

Hmmm. Master of Almightyness. Brings this to mind:

Well I am the Supreme ultimate grand master, royal imperial Grand Poobah and evil wizard of Xuefu...so I am a higher rank than he is

 

[Buka]

Least we forget....

 

[Tames D]

How many of you are old enough to remember Master Po?