The Responsibilities of Rank

[Wo Fat]

Greetings all:

Let's face it; in many arts and disciplines, the issue of runaway rank is a serious concern. To be blunt, there are way too many "masters", "grandmasters", "professors", "8th dan", "9th dan" and so on.

I'd be curious to know what people believe should be the responsibilities that go along with such high rank. Should a 9th dan or grandmaster be similar to a Senator, where he or she represents the interests of hundreds or thousands of people? Should they work tirelessly to unify and standardize their art? Should they be responsible for overseeing the opening and (successful) operating of new schools?

What goes along with rank besides the title?

 

[Andrew Green]

It's just a belt, don't take it so seriously.

 

[j-squared]

I suppose it would depend on the organization awarding the rank. Mostly I agree with the sentiment, "It's just a belt..."

 

[Steve]

What goes along with rank besides the title?

About the most important thing that comes to my mind is competence. Integrity, honesty and whatever else are all human traits. We judge (or don't judge) each other on these human traits all the time, regardless of whether we train in MA. The one thing I feel is intrinsic to rank is competence. I find it hard to forgive incompetent black belts.

 

[Grenadier]

Let's face it; in many arts and disciplines, the issue of runaway rank is a serious concern. To be blunt, there are way too many "masters", "grandmasters", "professors", "8th dan", "9th dan" and so on.

I'd be curious to know what people believe should be the responsibilities that go along with such high rank.
[/quote]

I think you're unfairly bunching titles and rankings together.

What goes along with rank besides the title?

Ranks usually do not confer any particular title; such titles are usually earned within a system.

Just because someone has attained a more advanced black belt ranking, does not automatically make him a sensei, nor does becoming a 5th dan automatically make one a Renshi, etc. In most systems of Karate, for example, rankings are usually given for individual accomplishments. Titles are usually given to those who have furthered the system in some way or another.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Let's face it; in many arts and disciplines, the issue of runaway rank is a serious concern. To be blunt, there are way too many "masters", "grandmasters", "professors", "8th dan", "9th dan" and so on.

Ahem!! Hallelujah!! Peanutbutter!!

I'd be curious to know what people believe should be the responsibilities that go along with such high rank.

To make T-shirts with your school logo on it.

Should a 9th dan or grandmaster be similar to a Senator,

Should he lie and have sex with prostitutes?

Should they work tirelessly to unify and standardize their art?

If the person wants to create a huge organization. Some people just want to teach a handful of students and avoid politics and being in charge of a huge global organization on the other hand people look at it as a way to spread their knowledge and make a few bucks on the side.

Should they be responsible for overseeing the opening and (successful) operating of new schools?

Sometimes a senior member will oversee a school it depends on the organization. a High rank and a Grandmaster will mostly have different responsibilities such as the Grandmaster overseeing the higher levels and the higher levels doing the bidding kinda of like Wizard of Oz you have the Witch who is like the Grandmaster and the Flying monkeys are the higher ups and all the low students are the Scarecrow.

What goes along with rank besides the title?

Your money paying for the rank and title.

 

[Stac3y]

Personally, I think people who attain a high rank should behave in a way that engenders respect and shows integrity. Then again, I think EVERYBODY should do that, so what do I know?

 

[jks9199]

The primary responsibility of anyone as they gain rank is to share what they've been taught. That doesn't always mean being an instructor, or teaching basic classes. Not everyone is a good teacher by temperament -- and they shouldn't feel forced to be. That may mean that their "sharing" is one-on-one or lining up good teachers (sometimes a good teacher can highlight what someone is doing that they can't teach themselves) or help run the association or training hall. It might even just be by being out there as an example for newer students.

None of this changes except in degree as the rank increases; to those to whom much is given have much to give back...

 

[geezer]

The primary responsibility of anyone as they gain rank is to share what they've been taught...

None of this changes except in degree as the rank increases; to those to whom much is given have much to give back...

Funny. In the first association I achieved instructor rank in, we were taught not to share too much, and to charge as much as possible for what little we did share. But lest we be thought of as greedy, let me clarify. We were supposed to send almost all of the money collected along to the association, and stay poor ourselves.

Also, we did have very high standards. In reference to one of JadeCloud's insightful comments, in our system you didn't lie, scam, and openly and unabashedly have sex with prostitutes before becoming a 10th Level Grandmaster. Sadly, I'm not making this up!

OK, now to get back on topic. I believe that rank should be treated a bit more like a university degree. It establishes your credentials, or your level of expertise, honestly achieved. I don't think you should be obligated to slavishly serve your master or association as though you were in a cult. Once you have earned your university degree, you go on to use it as you see fit. The university doesn't withdraw an honestly earned degree because it's staff decides that they don't agree with the direction your research takes you later on. I'd say the same should apply to the MAs. I earned a certain rank under my first sifu. By my choice, I no longer represent him, but he can't say that I never earned that rank just because I left his association!

 

[tallgeese]

It really depends on the organization. Larger groups might require quite a bit of higher bb ranks. Smaller, or more loosely affiliated groups might require next to nothing.

Agreeing with what was said above, I don't think administrative requirements are a major factor. Competence compared to one's standards is the major factor.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The higher teh rank, the more responsibility to the local dojo and the National organization. During seminars we train very little, as we are running around driving, seeing about lunches, etc.etc.

No one makes us do this, but we feel an obligation to our sensei. The seminars allow him to finally train, and not teach us!!

 

[Flying Crane]

I'd like to see more of them teaching their own students, in their own school (singular, as in 1 school, with his own students who he teaches directly)

Seems like for a lot of folks, once they strap on a high rank, what becomes more important is building an empire of schools, for which he has no way of maintaining a high quality of instruction and training.

 

[MBuzzy]

Responsibilities of Rank is one of my favorite topics. I do have a warped view of rank though, since I live with it every day. I've observed some very good behavior and some very bad behavior when it comes to martial arts ranks. Some people wear it with dignity and integrity and some people let it go to their heads.

The bottom line is that your rank exists FOR and BECAUSE of those above AND below you. Many people forget the below you part....With high rank comes the responsibility of taking care of and treating well those below you in rank. Without students, there would be no teachers. Even if you are not a teacher and have no aspirations to be....you put on that rank and you are still an example. The lower belts will still look to you for help, instruction, and as an example, no matter what you do.

Therefore, it is your responsibility to yourself, your dojo (dojang, gym, etc), to respect those above and below you, to carry yourself commensurate with your rank, and to use your rank to help and further the standing of those above and below you.

When you start using your rank to control, manipulate, order around, etc....you've overstepped your bounds. A rank is NOT an excuse to be a jerk or mistreat people. It doesn't make you better than ANYONE, it only makes you more experienced and more knowledgeable. Everyone one of those students is capable of achieving the same rank and that should be remembered.

The bottom line is...don't forget that you were a white belt once too. I know taht you asked about the very high ranking, but basically, rank responsibility doesn't start at the top, it starts at the bottom. If those high ranking individuals are taught how to wear and use their ranks when they start, they will wear it better when they reach the high ranks. The higher in rank you get, you just have more people to take care of. They should be the ultimate example.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I'm going to have to say that higher ranks have several responsibilities

Responsibilities to the ranks above them to show them the respect they deserve for teaching you and granting you the rank.

Responsibilities to those below them to help guide them on their way to attaining higher levels of proficiency in the art

And above all, a responsibility to themselves to decide, at the point where they are dubbed "masters" "instructors" "sensei" "renshi" whatever, they have the responsibility to themselves to decide how they want to represent their martial art. Do they want to continue to be a symbol of their instructor's school? Do they want to break away and attempt to change (notice I said change, not make better) the art in some way or form? Do they want to break away and form their own organization? Basically it's time for the person to grow up and decide what they want to do with the knowledge and skills they have attained.

I feel that, until you've reached that certain rank, you have a duty to yourself to trust your teacher, to be cognitive of what you are learning, of course, but at the same time trust that your teacher is teaching you something useful, and not constantly look "How can I make this better?" If a particular technique doesn't work right for you the first time, maybe you need to practice it more. If you practice it more, and you don't get better, then ask your teacher how you can best manipulate the technique to your advantage (I have this problem a lot, what with me being rather on the short side and my dojo mates being....not so much). The important part is to realize that you are still a student, and you need to trust your teacher, and the other higher ranks, to teach you and to help you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Greetings all:

Let's face it; in many arts and disciplines, the issue of runaway rank is a serious concern. To be blunt, there are way too many "masters", "grandmasters", "professors", "8th dan", "9th dan" and so on.

I'd be curious to know what people believe should be the responsibilities that go along with such high rank. Should a 9th dan or grandmaster be similar to a Senator, where he or she represents the interests of hundreds or thousands of people? Should they work tirelessly to unify and standardize their art? Should they be responsible for overseeing the opening and (successful) operating of new schools?

What goes along with rank besides the title?

I've said it before and I will say it again the term "Grandmaster" on mainland China applied to a living guy doing martial arts is mostly sarcasm and if you are Chinese and applying that title to a Chinese martial artist you best be ready to back that insult up or have your running shoes on.

Beyond that I have to go with Andrew Green

It's just a belt, don't take it so seriously.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'm going to make a distinction here, between rank and roles.

Rank is a silly construct too give a pecking order within a chain, but it really doesn't do much apart from exist.

People do have different roles though, I run a club. As such I would consider it my responsibility to make sure training is done safely, that everyone is progressing, that what we are doing is worth doing, and that I stay on top of new developments and to make sure the bills get paid and tuition collected.

A person running a larger organization, with many schools under them has a responsibility to ensure that the instructors are kept up to date, that the quality is improving and not degrading, and that everyone has access to the resources they require.

But rank has nothing to do with any of that. If I have a club of 50 students it doesn't matter if I have a 10th dan or a Brown belt, my responsibilities are the same.

I think one of the biggest drawbacks of a rank system is it lets people hide behind it. There are some very questionable people out there who seem to be able to maintain order based solely on their rank, and not their ability. I suppose it balances out as most of them seem to attract students who are in it for very superficial reasons anyways...

 

[Wo Fat]

These are some incredibly thoughtful and insightful responses ... responses to a question that I dare not ask in the presence of my grandmasters. :rules:

 

[shihansmurf]

These are some incredibly thoughtful and insightful responses ... responses to a question that I dare not ask in the presence of my grandmasters. :rules:

I would be suspect of any instructor that has areas that you dare not ask about in reference to the martial arts.

The rank concept is absurd on many levels. While there are certain uses for a ranking system, namely as benchmarks for a students progress/reward for hard work, and as a way to indicate to an instructor the general knowledge level of a student, in general I think that too often the negatives outweigh the positives. High rank, all rank actually, is subjective and any responsibility assumed is done so on a purely voluntary basis. If you're an instructor, teach your students to the best of your ability, treat them with the level of respect that you expect to be shown to you, and behave like a polite adult. If we did those things then, I am of the opinion that most of the debates over what responsibilities and such are tied to rank would diminish.We make complex a simple thing.

Just my view.
Mark

 

[just2kicku]

We were talking about this the other night. When you make Sifu, you're like a father to your students, you make sure they're doing everything correctly. When you make Proffessor, you're like a grand father, your students have their own BB's. And when you hit GM or SGM your like a great grandfather. GM should take about 40+ years to achieve.

My instructor is a GM, 9th and does have BB's who have their own school and their own BBs. But when you get that high, you have to have done things to promote the art.

 

[Kacey]

Someone took the time to teach me (still does, actually); therefore, as I increased in knowledge (indicated by rank), I had an increasing responsibility to take the time to teach someone else - preferably many someones else. Without that, the art (whatever art one refers to) will die - no matter how much the seniors know, if they don't pass it on to juniors, eventually there will be no more art.

That said, however, not every student will be a good instructor. There are other ways to benefit the art - hosting events (seminars, tournaments, etc.), providing services the art needs (compiling information about the art, hosting extra training sessions, doing bookkeeping, etc.), substituting for the instructor, supporting one's instructor any way one can. And along the way, remember that MA practitioners are people, with lives, and that not everyone can do everything all the time. But I do think that everyone should try, and I don't think much of those who can't be bothered to support their art(s).