Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[TigerWoman]

This question was posed yesterday by the Master 5th Dan at a Recommmend BB test of five men and women. At the end he stated he was disappointed in the ability of their jumping kicks and height. Mostly everyone broke boards really well and I didn't see redo's in form. He said another master had failed all his students at a BB test in another city.
He said he COULD fail all testing before him. He posed a question to us -
Does he have the right to FAIL everyone-no explanation?

In answering the question, we all said he has the blanket RIGHT... The would be BB's said they would want to know why. The BB's sitting at the table, said it wouldn't be right and that the students have rights too. Any comments?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Does he have the right?

It is his test so, yes he does.

Same as any teacher in any school. Pass/Fail.

Is it right?

I don't think so. I think part of his job as a teacher is to -teach-. One can not learn if one doesn't know where their failed.

But..he already did explain why..."At the end he stated he was disappointed in the ability of their jumping kicks and height."

 

[RHD]

Does he have the right?

It is his test so, yes he does.

Same as any teacher in any school. Pass/Fail.

Is it right?

I don't think so. I think part of his job as a teacher is to -teach-. One can not learn if one doesn't know where their failed.

But..he already did explain why..."At the end he stated he was disappointed in the ability of their jumping kicks and height."

If a student(s) doesn't meet the standards for the promotion, the master would be doing them a disservice to promote them.
Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Exactly.

The question was though, does he have the right to doso without explaination?

If I fail the test, fine. Tell me where I failed though. This way, I can improve.

 

[Disco]

He was disappointed in the ability of their jumping kicks and height."

Assuming that all other aspects of testing were passed, the criteria for total passing is they can't jump high enough? What ever happened to adjustment for students physical condition? Not everybody is a gifted athlete. Perfection and proficiency are two different spectrums.

Now I must ask this question. Is there a retest fee?

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

As an instructor, he should have been well aware of his students' strengths and weaknesses. If no one was up to snuff, no one should have been allowed to test.

(A side question- does he charge for testing, and does the student have to pay whether they pass or fail? Just wondering...)

Some instructors insist that when a student fails a test, it builds "character". I'm inclined to believe that telling the student that he/she is not ready to test gives that student a wake-up call, and the student will either crack down and work or fade out of the program.

 

[TigerWoman]

The example he gave --the master in the other city actually did fail the group, everybody, without explanation. Don't know HIS policy of retesting. Our master has not made a decision, he held it over their heads..."if you come to the tournament you will know if you pass or fail". (he needs judges albeit "green" judges)

He told all who tested the deficiencies at the end. He grades 1-10 and the woman who was overweight, couldn't jump well, got a 5 which he considers a "D". He did not announce the grades publicly just that your kick was not off the ground etc.

No, he will not require a new fee. He in fact pushed two women who I had talked to, who felt they weren't ready - one tested, one didn't. I'm fairly sure he had given them a "signal" encouraged them all to test.

In addition, the point wasn't lost on me, I have yet to pass my second dan test because of a break.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If a student(s) doesn't meet the standards for the promotion, the master would be doing them a disservice to promote them.

I agree with this statement in general. However I belive he should state why. If he noticed all of the participents where to low with their kicks and jumps he could have asked them to try again at a higher level. He could have asked the instructor if the hight was what was taught.
He had options but really is not required to say anything other than in common courtisy.

 

[TigerWoman]

The Master also makes everyone who is testing actually do the test as practice for 2-4 weeks prior to the test except for the sparring and breaking. He has seen their ability - he watches. We have to do slow motion kicks - front, round, side, spin side, spin heel (hook) to a count of 7. Holding it for two counts at 5 at the completion of the kick then down for two counts. It takes alot of practice and this is not practiced in class ever. It is not accomplished well in 2-4 weeks. Personally I went to class alot and practiced specifically this outside of class for long time. It requires flexibility, strength and balance. Many adults and juniors have trouble with all three.

No he usually doesn't pass if they do not do these well-at the correct level ie spin hook to their head level. So far, he has allowed time after the test to accomplish the parts failed. But at this last test he implied that the whole test is failed because parts are failed. I haven't seen anybody doing the whole thing well. If nothing else, a break is missed. So it remains to be seen when these people would do the whole test again. Or if he charges a fee for the re-test. Maybe that's what he wants - for us to keep testing.
(see recertification question) I think that would cut a lot of people out of our school.

 

[dearnis.com]

So he knew the individuals who were testing and their level ahead of time? (as opposed to coming into town for the test and seeing everyone for the first time at testing.) And he knew essentially where everyone stood a few weeks out? I put that on the instructor, not the students. My belief is that you do not ask someone to test if you don't think they are ready (and as a lower level instructor you do not put your students up in front of your seniors if you arent damn sure of them!)

 

[elcajon555]

Apparently failing an entire group above black belt seems to be a common thread in testings of late. In february I tested for my 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo, there was 6 of us testing and all 6 of us failed. Two of us failed(myself included) because of weight, I have to loose 10 lbs and another has to loose 15lbs. I would like to mention nothing about our techiques were mentioned. It wasn;t like weight was affecting how we were throwing the techingues. Three of the other people were failed because of inconsistent attendence, missing classes here and there. Again nothing was said of the actual test. And I am not sure why the other student failed. We only had to pay the testing fee once, so in June when we retest we won;t have to repay, so money wasn;t a motivation. Usually when someone fails the test it is for a specific part, like if they didn;t break their board then they have to go back just to break, or if they mess up on their form, then they have to go back to redo the form. All 6 of us broke within two tries, I broke all my boards on the first try, as did another person. 5 of us(including myself) did the form right. And like I said 5 of us(including myself) had good techniques. Now we are suppose to retest on June 5th my instructor has repeatly asked the master instructor what we have to repeat, and as recent as two weeks ago, the master instructor has not given an answer. He has not told us what we have to repeat thus he hasn;t told us what we have failed on. Being in this situation I know what it feels like. Now to answer the guestions, yes the instructor has the right to fail everyone. However I believe a reason should be given. It is very fustrating to know that I have to retest, but I don;t know what to focus my training on. How can I be expected to pass the test in june when I don;t even know why I failed. And I believe that as an instructor they have to right and oblication to inform us on why we failed. They have no right to say we have failed and to not let us know why. I believe the first time I will know why I have failed will be on June 5th when I am infront of the master instructor retesting.

 

[8253]

if a person dosent pass a test then they should be failed, however a whole group shouldnt be failed based on one or two peoples inablility to do techniques, moves or forms properly. Besides if you have five people doing the same move at the same time, how is someone supposed to see all of them at once. even if you do fail though there should be at least an explaination of why you failed. Without the explaination you wouldnt know what to correct.

 

[Tony]

I think that most gradings,well atleast the one I just had, you would not be entered if you weren't ready, so why go through that humiliation? Yes of course the Master has the right to fail his students if they were not up to standard and I definately think he should explain why. They deserve that so they know what to work on!

 

[MichiganTKD]

Masters have a right to fail anyone they want. They do NOT have to tell the student why they failed them, but they should discuss with the Instructor why their student did not pass, either through notes or verbal discussion. Keep in mind, as an Instructor it is my job to make damn sure my students are 100% ready by the time they actually test for 1st Dan or higher. Mistakes can happen, but if I allow a student to test who not ready ot almost ready, this is an insult to every judge there. If a student has some sort of physical problem or special consideration, the Instructor needs to discuss with us what those problems are. Otherwise that students gets put through the mill and better be able to perform.
Would I fail someone for not jumping high enough during a break? Possibly. Reason: if you are trying a jump break, and it is obvious that jumping does not fit your body structure, or you have bad balance and form while jumping, I might fail you. This is also the Instructor's fault for not working with you on breaks that suit your body type. However, these problems would most likely come out during free fighting.
In the end, I can fail anybody I want, and it is just as much the Instructor's fault for recommending a subpar student as it is the student themselves.
We do not charge a retesting fee. However, keep in mind that if a student fails, you might not have to worry about retesting because that student might in all likelihood quit. Think about it: One of the biggest events of your life and you failed. It would be very tempting to quit MA (for some/many people). For this reason, judges must use great caution in deciding who to fail, and Instructors must use great caution in deciding who to recommend knowing the consequences if that student doesn't pass.

 

[Nightingale]

At every black belt kenpo test I've watched (and I've been on the boards for quite a few colored belt tests as well), anyone on the board has the right to fail a candidate for any reason of their choosing... I've seen a few people fail, and they've ALWAYS been given an explanation as to why, for the simple reason that if someone doesn't know where they're going wrong, they have no way to know what to fix next time around.

 

[Taimishu]

As an instructor (not in MAs) and a tester I believe that we have the right
to fail, and indeed the responsibility to fail if the candidate is not ready, but must always give the reason for failing them. How else are they going to know what they did wrong and improve themselves.If you dont want to tell the candidate at least tell thier instructor.

My thoughts.

David

 

[elcajon555]

With my test even the instructor doesn;t know why he failed, other then us being made an example of. He send 4 people to a 2nd degree test, 4 people he believed in, still does and he felt that they were ready, the masters obviously disagree, but that have not even told him why. We are all in the dark. And I believe that is wrong.

 

[TigerWoman]

With my test even the instructor doesn;t know why he failed, other then us being made an example of. He send 4 people to a 2nd degree test, 4 people he believed in, still does and he felt that they were ready, the masters obviously disagree, but that have not even told him why. We are all in the dark. And I believe that is wrong.

Our master says, by failing all, is to teach humility. It IS his right as a testor to fail those who do not pass a test. It IS his right to judge that the students testing do not have humility. BUT does he really think all those who he approved to go to a test before, now at the test suddenly have no or not enough humility? Did something, words or action of ALL the students during the test cause him to change his mind that they now had no humility? Or is it that the master, who is their instructor, who has sent them to test, wants to have an opportunity to squash them down? Did this need to be done at a test instead of just saying no you're not ready and stay at high red or brown? Is the problem the lack of humility in the students or is it the lack of humility in the master instructor? None of us are perfect, no even a master instructor. But unfortunately, we are at his mercy.

 

[MJS]

None of us are perfect, no even a master instructor.

It sounds to me like he thinks that he's perfect!

But unfortunately, we are at his mercy.

No you're not! Nothing is holding you at that school, so why not leave?

Mike

 

[MJS]

This question was posed yesterday by the Master 5th Dan at a Recommmend BB test of five men and women. At the end he stated he was disappointed in the ability of their jumping kicks and height. Mostly everyone broke boards really well and I didn't see redo's in form. He said another master had failed all his students at a BB test in another city.
He said he COULD fail all testing before him. He posed a question to us -
Does he have the right to FAIL everyone-no explanation?

In answering the question, we all said he has the blanket RIGHT... The would be BB's said they would want to know why. The BB's sitting at the table, said it wouldn't be right and that the students have rights too. Any comments?

Well, you have to look at it a few ways here. One would assume, that by the BB level, you should be performing all of the material like a BB. That IMO, is HIS fault for continuing to promote the students, even though the kicks were not that good. As for failing the students....unless there was a drastic mistake, then I dont see why they shouldnt pass. Again, if you're testing for black, then you should be doing all the kicks, etc. without any mistakes. Just because someone only jumped 3ft in the air instead of 7ft...who cares! IMO, why waste time jumping that high anyway, when there are so many better targets much lower?

Mike