Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[skribs105]

Yup. Same as if everyone fails a math class in school - either A) all 30 students didn't learn properly, B) they were taught badly, or C) the test wasn't a good assessment of their skills. B and C are much more likely than A.

The thing is, tests are done on a pace in school. If you didn't learn by midterms, you'll fail the midterms.

Martial arts tests should be an if-you're-ready kind of thing.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The thing is, tests are done on a pace in school. If you didn't learn by midterms, you'll fail the midterms.

Martial arts tests should be an if-you're-ready kind of thing.

Another thing that hasn't been considered is that maybe the instructor's mind had already been made up before the test even started.

But as you said, on the "if you're ready" model, the instructor's mind should be made up to promote - with it being on the student to change the instructor's mind.

 

[geezer]

Another thing that hasn't been considered is that maybe the instructor's mind had already been made up before the test even started.

But as you said, on the "if you're ready" model, the instructor's mind should be made up to promote - with it being on the student to change the instructor's mind.

I've actually done things like this as a high school teacher in a regular class. If a situation develops where the majority of the kids are not taking the material seriously, I give them a pop quiz and, predictably, most or all fail. Then I offer to tear-up the quiz and let them take it over the next day or at the end of the week. Often, the improvement is amazing.

In a typical martial arts class where you pay a lot for testing, I wouldn't support this. However, my son's TKD instructor would often fail students (including my son on one occasion) but they got to re-test the next time for free. He told me privately that he'd never had a re-test fail. I doubt if he ever failed everybody, since his students were generally well prepared. But, although unlikely, it would have been a possibility. He was a stickler for standards.

 

[Rich Parsons53]

Interesting concept.

In combat sports you have fights. And those everyone can fail with no explanation given.

And it changes the attitude towards them.

HI Drop Bear,
.
I get your point and appreciate it.
I just need to ask a few points / questions.
.
1. If someone if Knocked out they know they were knocked out. If they know they were TKO'd by the center ref then they know it was a TKO. If it is medical that is known as well. Or if the Corner throws in a towel that is known.
So are not most of the reasons for losing kind of known?
.
2. If it goes to the judges does it not get the scores read if split, otherwise if Unanimous then people know the judges thought that person A won and Person B lost.
Are you saying that in these cases in split decisions that the score are not read? And it is just announced?
.
3. If could provide some examples of the changes in attitudes to the fights, I think my thick skull might better understand the points.
* Yes you can use small words and crayons for me. I will not get upset. *

 

[TKD Jonsey]

This is a 20-year-old thread and I don't recognize most of the names in it, so they probably won't be around to offer much in the way of discussion on it.

However, the only reason I can think of for a Master failing everyone at the test is if the Master is a guest. For example, if Alan decides his students are ready to test for black belt, but Alan isn't eligible to promote them or if he wants his Master (Brian) to come visit and see what his students can do. Brian comes to visit and sees that Alan has done a very poor job training them. Then Brian could fail them and pass his critique onto Alan, who can get them ready.

There are a few reasons I've seen individuals fail:

• Adults that rarely showed up but thought they knew everything and demanded to test. Turns out they didn't.
• Young kids that never listen or follow directions and had been stuck at their belt for months, failing their test was motivation to do better. (Out of thousands of kids we taught this only happened half a dozen times).
• Kids that freeze in the middle of the test (nerves or whatever) and refuse to complete it.

I have seen people fail because as soon as you learn your form (or appear to have learned it) you would get your stripe, and if you have your form stripe you basically weren't allowed to practice your form in class anymore. Surprise surprise when they get to the testing day and didn't know their form anymore. This was a school I left after 3 months because of a number of issues.

Yes sir and thank you for your answer. I apologize as I’m new here and just wanted to add to the discussion didn’t think about the fact I was bumping a thread created during the George W. Bush administration

 

[drop bear106]

HI Drop Bear,
.
I get your point and appreciate it.
I just need to ask a few points / questions.
.
1. If someone if Knocked out they know they were knocked out. If they know they were TKO'd by the center ref then they know it was a TKO. If it is medical that is known as well. Or if the Corner throws in a towel that is known.
So are not most of the reasons for losing kind of known?
.
2. If it goes to the judges does it not get the scores read if split, otherwise if Unanimous then people know the judges thought that person A won and Person B lost.
Are you saying that in these cases in split decisions that the score are not read? And it is just announced?
.
3. If could provide some examples of the changes in attitudes to the fights, I think my thick skull might better understand the points.
* Yes you can use small words and crayons for me. I will not get upset. *

Well you might loose. Even if you do everything right.

So the hard chargers will have done a camp to prepare. Will be as fit and technical as they can. Will have eaten the right food. Will be at the correct weight.

Everything they can do to walk away with a win.

Because a win is uncertain.

Where if a grading win is certain. Mabye not so prepared.

 

[Buka22]

Well you might loose. Even if you do everything right.

So the hard chargers will have done a camp to prepare. Will be as fit and technical as they can. Will have eaten the right food. Will be at the correct weight.

Everything they can do to walk away with a win.

Because a win is uncertain.

Where if a grading win is certain. Mabye not so prepared.

That was pretty funny.

 

[drop bear106]

That was pretty funny.

All you really need is to type self defence grading. And you just get gold.

Interestingly. We have a similar drill. But the attacker also has a win condition. So that they are both really going for something.

 

[HighKick]

All you really need is to type self defence grading. And you just get gold.

Interestingly. We have a similar drill. But the attacker also has a win condition. So that they are both really going for something.

As it should be. When we drill, there is an element of win for both sides. They start out soft to get the move(s) down then speed/contact up.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf106]

Well you might loose. Even if you do everything right.

So the hard chargers will have done a camp to prepare. Will be as fit and technical as they can. Will have eaten the right food. Will be at the correct weight.

Everything they can do to walk away with a win.

Because a win is uncertain.

Where if a grading win is certain. Mabye not so prepared.

I'm just impressed by how he's able to so easily escape mount. And how people are so moved by his ki they're running away before he finishes whatever he's doing on some of them. Where can I learn this power?

 

[drop bear106]

I'm just impressed by how he's able to so easily escape mount. And how people are so moved by his ki they're running away before he finishes whatever he's doing on some of them. Where can I learn this power?

Yeah. I still srtuggle with one guy. And he dominated everyone in the room

 

[Silverback]

It is an interesting phrasing to the question. "Does the master have the right to fail people/everybody in a grading?"

As oppose to "is the master right to fail everyone....?"

It sounds like this is a product of martial arts being a business these days.

If we are to say the master has no roght to fail a whole class, without good reason. Then we have to define what a good reason is, the argument of whether a situation fits into a pre defined reason surely follows.

 

[skribs105]

It sounds like this is a product of martial arts being a business these days.

Business or not, you don't put people into the test if they aren't ready, unless there's a good lesson they can learn from it. That lesson is that they aren't as good as they think they are, and they need to be taken down a peg.

If you have everyone test every 6 months, and only pass those that are ready, it makes sense for everyone to fail. If you only test those that are actually ready (or think they're ready), then ideally they all should pass. Otherwise you've failed as a teacher, either to make the expectations clear, or to teach to those expectations.

 

[Gyakuto106]

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[HighKick]

The thing is, tests are done on a pace in school. If you didn't learn by midterms, you'll fail the midterms.

Martial arts tests should be an if-you're-ready kind of thing.

True, but if the option to test is open to everyone, of their own choosing, or as a requirement of the curriculum, then the impetus is on the student to be ready. Just like the math test analogy.

Since the dynamics are completely different between learning math and learning a MA, it makes sense that the testing requirements be different, for safety if nothing else.

Like you said in another post, there is value in failing a test, but I feel it is on the instructor to control the narrative. It can get complicated and cause a person to completely quit if done the wrong way. Ask me how I know.

We are pretty simple and old school about testing. We do it on a 3-month schedule and simply hand a testing form (a real sheet of paper) to those that are allowed/ready to test. We do have (unexpected) failures usually from people who get too inside their own head and panic/stress out.

 

[skribs105]

True, but if the option to test is open to everyone, of their own choosing, or as a requirement of the curriculum, then the impetus is on the student to be ready. Just like the math test analogy.

I think there's a big difference between a test being open to everyone and being compulsory. Although s you said, the instructor can set the narrative. If it's as simple as "if you don't pass, just wait for the next one" then no biggie. But it sounds like these folks were expecting to pass.

Similarly, if it's open to everyone, and most people fail, then I go back to my point that expectations were not properly set. If one or two people in a blue moon test prematurely, that's on them. If an entire group fails because they tested too soon, that's a bigger issue.

Since the dynamics are completely different between learning math and learning a MA, it makes sense that the testing requirements be different, for safety if nothing else.

When I got into high school, the path was Algebra 1/2 -> Geometry 1/2 -> Algebra 3/4 -> Pre-Calculus -> Calculus. I and many others had already done Algebra 1/2 in middle school, and so started with Geometry. Our Geometry program was self-paced. I and a few others completed the entire year in the first semester (I did it in the first quarter). So the second semester I did Algebra 4. Pre-calculus was expected for juniors and seniors, I took it as a sophomore.

Math tests can be self-paced, just like martial arts tests.

 

[Gyakuto106]

I am still strongly of the opinion that a instructor should not examine their own students. There’s an implicit conflict of interests in doing so.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I am still strongly of the opinion that a instructor should not examine their own students. There’s an implicit conflict of interests in doing so.

If the relationship between instructor and students is something other than professional, then that needs to be addressed before exams even become a problem.

Otherwise, we might as well apply that same suggestion to education as a whole.

 

[Gyakuto106]

If the relationship between instructor and students is something other than professional, then that needs to be addressed before exams even become a problem.

One can never be impartial with someone you teach day in, day out, week after week, month after month. Humans simply form biases. It’s fairer to have a stranger examine you.

Otherwise, we might as well apply that same suggestion to education as a whole.

We do. Examination papers in U.K. Universites are ‘blind marked’ and then second marked by another person. Discrepancies in the marks are analysed and may result in third marking! GCSE and A level papers are marked externally from the school. When school papers were marked ‘in house’ during lock down, marks shot up affirming my suspicions on impartiality.

 

[Buka22]

Man, there’s a lot of good stuff in this thread. Thanks to everyone contributing.

I’ve had many guest instructors sit in on our tests to grade students, and I’ve sat in on a lot of theirs (mostly to make their students nervous, which was asked of me by their instructors)

We tested in certain ways. ALL of which were explained in great detail to every student in the school. All testing was free. IF you passed you paid five bucks for your new belt.

ALL tests were open to all students, even if you weren’t eligible for testing. Why? Because they were the most strenuous classes of the year. Classes were five days a week. No sense missing a workout just because testing was going on. Even guests from other schools were allowed, and encouraged, to take the test and get a good workout.

A buddy of mine has been running the same dojo for forty five years. It’s the most successful dojo I know of, both financially and in the development of students.

He asked me to sit on the testing board one time for Black Belt. I said sure, I considered it an honor.

The son of a beach set me up. I didn’t realize his Black Belt grading took three weeks. I had to drive there three days a week for three weeks. The drive was well over an hour. But it was worth it, the testing was awesome.

Man, did those students work their backsides off.