Martial arts: art, method, or way?

[Daniel Sullivan]

This subject came up on the thread, 'Is it all in decline?'

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67409&page=7

Lori thought that it might be a good idea for a thread, and so here it is.

Are martial arts art, like music, dance, poetry, drawing & painting, and sculpture, or ....

....is it an art in the sense that one says, there's an art to landing a lander on 60's technology?

Or, perhaps martial arts is a 'way', as the do in so many TMA's states, a way to better fitness, self improvement, and perhaps spiritual enlightenment.

I've always thought of it as the second category, more of a martial method than art in the traditional aesthetic sense. There is an art to performing the techniques in any TMA, but it isn't art in the same sense as the fine arts.

Anyway, here is the 'definition of art' according to Stanford.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/art-definition/

Like the Taekwondo/Karate thread I posted over in the Taekwondo section, I'm not looking to make a definitive statement about the specific definition of the term, 'martial art'; There are quite a few different perspectives on this subject, I'm sure, so I am initiating a friendly discussion and hopefully not a flame war.

Daniel

 

[theletch1]

Yes, it is.

As much as I've gotten to a point of not liking to give this answer... it depends on the person, the style and the reason that person is pursuing that style.

 

[clfsean]

It's a path... not much more.

 

[exile]

I think the 'art' here has precisely the same sense as in phrases such as domestic arts, The Art of the Deal (One of Donald Trump's endless celebrations of his own magnificence), and 'the art of vicarious living' (a phrase the cultural historian and critic Max Learner used to describe American life in the 1950s... and this was way before modern pop celebrity culture!) The term art here means something like 'skill or ability'. In its raw native forms, the MAs were basically what the Japanese call a jutsu, a combat discipline. They didn't becomes 'ways' until much later. Part of the reason that karate became karate-do among its practitioners is that, as Rob Redmond shows, Funakoshi was anxious to repackage it for the benefit of the American occupying authorities who were systematically eliminating and suppressing all vestiges of Japanese militarism. By retreading karate as a do, Funakoshi and his followers were able to persuade them that it was really a tool for character-building (as Americans understood the notion). In Okinawa, before the expat influx into Japan, it seems to have been pretty much all business.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think the 'art' here has precisely the same sense as in phrases such as domestic arts, The Art of the Deal (One of Donald Trump's endless celebrations of his own magnificence), and 'the art of vicarious living' (a phrase the cultural historian and critic Max Learner used to describe American life in the 1950s... and this was way before modern pop celebrity culture!) The term art here means something like 'skill or ability'. In its raw native forms, the MAs were basically what the Japanese call a jutsu, a combat discipline. They didn't becomes 'ways' until much later. Part of the reason that karate became karate-do among its practitioners is that, as Rob Redmond shows, Funakoshi was anxious to repackage it for the benefit of the American occupying authorities who were systematically eliminating and suppressing all vestiges of Japanese militarism. By retreading karate as a do, Funakoshi and his followers were able to persuade them that it was really a tool for character-building (as Americans understood the notion). In Okinawa, before the expat influx into Japan, it seems to have been pretty much all business.

Without being dismissive of anyone else's opinions, Exile, you sum up my thoughts quite succinctly (hope I spelled that right!), plus add some nice supporting statements.

Daniel

 

[teekin]

Ok, here is my split. Any endevor becomes Art when it is infused with passion, creativity and can touch the soul of another. The layers and layers of subtlety and depth in an MA like Aikido, they absolute beauty and poetry of movement a good boxer will demonstrate, how fluid top shelf jujitsui is. You can tell when this is done with love and passion. When it is, when the movement is lit from within and done with joy, it is art. IMHO anyway
lori

 

[still learning]

Hello, I time people will realize....martial arts today...is not preparing us for a real street confrontations or fights.

Two things that one needs..... physcial fit and actual fighting skills or (street figthing sparring) including boxing skills.

If one never being in a boxing rings and actual box against another person? ......than you will find out...quickly what you are lacking?

Verbal skills (how to avoid) ...is not taught also....

is martial arts today missing the point?

Aloha

 

[Cirdan]

MA is both art, sience and way.

It is sience because it is largely physics.
It is art because so much is not measurable and relies on intuition.
It is a way because training can improve your life in a lot of ways.

 

[Sukerkin]

I like that crisp and precise way {yeah, unintentional pun attack !} that you purvey the structure of a martial art in three short sentences, Cirdan. It's similar to letch's nice one line summation earlier.

Well done to everyone, by the way, for getting your feelings across on something that is largely ineffable.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Are martial arts art, like music, dance, poetry, drawing & painting, and sculpture, or ....

My instructor always called what he taught me the art of killing and maiming. It is an art when done correctly and studied to perfect ones technique

A martial artist needs to have music, dance, poetry, drawing & painting, and sculpture, etc. in his studies to become a more total person and to understand aspects of life not in a martial program. Not to say one needs all of these but some would help "round out " a person

 

[hogstooth]

IMO it is both an art and a martial tradition but more so I think of it as a "way" as in Do. It is a way of life and a never ending pursuit to perfect oneself.
It is an art. I have seen masters perform kata that had a beauty to then that could be appreciated. It is also Martial in that you can use it to protect, injure or kill. But it is the balance between the two that makes it the way. I think if you have too much art or too much martial is ceases to be a perfect balance.
I have read that the samurai where not only deadly because of their martial training but also quite well versed in the arts such as flower arrangements, tea ceremonies, budhism, caligraphy and so on.
A perfect balance is needed in every aspect of life. Work, family, religion, hobbies and the MA. To much of one and the others suffer.

 

[teekin]

I think the more "poetry in motion" a Martial artist is the more lethal they are likely to be.....if the mind will allow them to take that final step. The best boxer I have seen ( I have been at a gym watching serious boxers, guys who fight on a regular schedual ,and they are so so Beautiful to watch, like a Dali painting) are wonderfly fluid, smooth, controlled and at the same time devastating when they connect. The ones that are a bit "off " can not carry the power through. This seems to be the case throughout MAs. Perhaps it has something to do with how much control it takes to look that smooth and effortless; and how many many years it has taken to acheive that level of control. (As I am a newbie at this I don't know.)
I do think striking is a nessesary skill for the street and just good to know. It is an art and a science.
Thanks everyone for the discusion so far.
lori

 

[Marginal]

I think the 7th definition from dictionary.com comes closer than any definition leading people to try to hang a MA on the wall.

7.the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling.

16's better yet

16.Archaic. science, learning, or scholarship.

More accurate. IMO there's no real benefit or need to generate wierd dualaties.

 

[KempoGuy06]

i prefer to think of it as an art when looking from an outsiders perspective. It can be compared to almost any classical form of art. Most people dont refer to it as art because of what a martial artist can do. take a way the uniform and have some do a form and show me the difference between it and an form of dance.

as a MA'ist i like to look at it as art and way. I have passion for the art but Im want to use it to improve my life.

dont know if thats what you were looking for its my .02

B

 

[bluekey88]

MA is all of the above. It is an art in that it tzakes a certain knack, de veloped through practice to do properly (with economy of motion and grace)...that is what we often refer to as technique.

however, when one works on this level of art it can become a "do" or a way of life. At this stage one starts seeing parallels with the activity and other aspects of ones life. Ones training informs and enriches ones life. T

At the highest levels, with dedication, one can transcend the simple performace of MA and MA then becomes "fine art." By this, the activity becomes an expression of onesself and a means of communication with others on a whole different level. Some never make it to this place, others only briefly, some seem to be blessed to come to this place easily (and I sometimes envy them).

Heck, in my opinion, anything can follow this prgresison of activity, to knack, to way of life, to fine art. A carpenter can make a simople box, but some carpenters make boxes that transcned simple wood and joints and create great works of beauty. Musicians can make simpel enjoyable music, some make great music.

The same with martial arts, be it forms performance, or all out fighting. one of the most beautiful things I ever saw was a UFC fight where two gusy were both excellent techniqians... I think it was a Nick Diaz fight (though I'm bad with names and really am not asure who the fighters were). After some intense striking, these guys wne tto the ground and put on one of the greatest displays of high level jiu jiotsu I've ever seen. Submission attmepts, counters sweeps...really fast paced high level stuff. At that moment, I was watching fine art and it moved me.

Peace,
Erik

 

[teekin]

The same with martial arts, be it forms performance, or all out fighting. one of the most beautiful things I ever saw was a UFC fight where two gusy were both excellent techniqians... I think it was a Nick Diaz fight (though I'm bad with names and really am not asure who the fighters were). After some intense striking, these guys wne tto the ground and put on one of the greatest displays of high level jiu jiotsu I've ever seen. Submission attmepts, counters sweeps...really fast paced high level stuff. At that moment, I was watching fine art and it moved me.

Peace,
Erik[/quote]

Ahhhhh, there it is! Art can move people! The passion transcends the mere physical movements, the technique, the forms and can evoke emotions in others. It will inspire and impress itself upon memory. Thank you Bluekey!

lori