Martial Arts Aren't Magic

jobo

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i understand your "that guy"...the one who sees the world through their own eyes and refuses to try to understand the underlying point that someone is trying to make...so be it....

What do children know of their own mortality?

"In a recent review of studies on children’s understanding of death, medics Alan Bates and Julia Kearney describe how:"

"Partial understanding of universality, irreversibility, and nonfunctionality usually develops between the ages of 5 and 7 years, but a more complete understanding of death concepts, including causality, is not generally seen until around age 10. Prior to understanding nonfunctionality, children may have concrete questions such as how a dead person is going to breathe underground. Less frequently studied is the concept of personal mortality, which most children have some under standing of by age 6 with more complete understanding around age 8–11."

now that is for the concept of death and mortality but they also have to have an understanding that bad things can happen to them. often children think that death is only something that happens to old people or adults. on top of that we are not just talking about mortality we are talking about violence. while some children do experience violence, most do not. it is that experience that allows them to grasp the concept. i am not talking about fist fights in school where the worst that happens is someone cries and runs away humiliated. if the child's experience is limited to school fights then they will not comprehend the concept of the level of violence an adult can do to another. the ability to comprehend is dependent on experience. this is not limited to children. adults are prone to this as well. many adults who can logically understand violence can have an insulated view. thinking that things like that can not happen to them, or perhaps ignoring the possibility for psychological comfort.
while a child may understand violence from one perspective, correlating their own martial arts and the connection to violence is again another step. its a step many adults cant make. violence is often nothing more than a vague concept that has a slight possibility of happening somewhere way off in the future,, but probably not ..in their view. this insulated view makes martial training less about self protection and more a social activity.

and to clarify my earlier post...i said their training does not reflect self defense ability until around 15.
#1...the reality is that under the age of 15 or 16 children are not really learning applicable fighting skill.
please notice the . period after the word skill
i have little idea, what that lot was supposed to show. You said that there needs to be maturity to understand the concept of violence, i think, most kids will catch on when another kid pins them to the ground and repeatedly punches them. or some such,

and why do you believe. That say a 13 yo can't learn applicable fighting skill, ? if a thirteen yo ma gets into a fight why arnt his skills just as applicable as a 15 yo ma. Your whole point doesn't make sense!
 
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Anarax

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You're missing the point. The well trained are easily defeated when they are trained for a totally different sort of combat. He was trained for a consensual fight/sporting contest not self defence/non consensual criminal violence. He never trained to deal with multiple opponents or weapons because they are not something he needed to train for in the ring.

So by you're definition he was a well trained Martial Artist, however that does not mean he has any skill self defence. Consensual/sport fighting and self defence are two very different things, and skill at one does not automatically translate into skill at the other, and vice versa.

So the question remains, do you think he was a martial artist? Clearly he was skilled in the ring as he was undefeated, but he did not train for combat outside the ring, did not understand combat outside the ring, and did not have the skills to deal with combat outside the ring.

You are only finding the example that backs up your view though. What about the multiple cases of professional fighters getting into altercations outside the ring and they demonstrate they are more than capable of defending themselves? Him unable to defend himself against 5 or more people one armed with a 2x4 isn't a failing of his training. If you stack the deck high enough against someone regardless of how well they're trained, they won't come out on top.
 
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Anarax

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You do fight how you train. You deal with many situations how you train, if you train for them, either physically, mentally, or both. That has been proven many times over. That is why the military does a lot of training. And some businesses do a lot of training.

That explains why Paul_D is correct in his post.

No it's not. Finding a video of a professional fighter getting overwhelmed by 5 or more people isn't proof of his claim. Look up the other cases of professional fighters getting into altercations outside the ring, then tell me they're training wasn't effective
 

Steve

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If a parent puts their kid in martial arts, their kid is better off than if they had not been put in. Martial arts should teach more than self defense: discipline and respect are high up there as well.
Not necessarily.
 
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Anarax

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So by you're definition he was a well trained Martial Artist

No, he was the example you used. I was stating in general that the well trained can still be defeated under the right circumstances.
 
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Anarax

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If a parent puts their kid in martial arts, their kid is better off than if they had not been put in. Martial arts should teach more than self defense: discipline and respect are high up there as well.

Is it? instilling into him a level of confidence that isn't proportional to his skill is dangerous. There needs to be a correlation between confidence and ability.
 

jobo

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Is it? instilling into him a level of confidence that isn't proportional to his skill is dangerous. There needs to be a correlation between confidence and ability.
id never have got anywhere if that was true
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I get the point of the thread, but I take issue witht he title. There are martial arts that are, in fact, magic.
 

Hyoho

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So whats magic about it? In Japan MA is like little league. A discipline that some catch on to because....... they can already fight. Even then nobody does it for self defense, but for competiton. NOT to defend themselves. This is where the concept has got twisted.

Ater a lot of posts I now see clear distinction as to why a lot a people in the West do it. But it's not the reason I started. I could already fight. It was the challenge and the self discipline that attracted me.
 
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Paul_D

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You are only finding the example that backs up your view though. What about the multiple cases of professional fighters getting into altercations outside the ring and they demonstrate they are more than capable of defending themselves? Him unable to defend himself against 5 or more people one armed with a 2x4 isn't a failing of his training. If you stack the deck high enough against someone regardless of how well they're trained, they won't come out on top.
The only way to deal with multiple opponents is to train to deal with multiple opponents. How can not training to deal wih multiple opponents not be a fail in of his training. Clearly that’s exactly what it is.
 

hoshin1600

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So whats magic about it? In Japan MA is like little league. A discipline that some catch on to because....... they can already fight. Even then nobody does it for self defense, but for competiton. NOT to defend themselves. This is where the concept has got twisted.

Ater a lot of posts I now see clear distinction as to why a lot a people in the West do it. But it's not the reason I started. I could already fight. It was the challenge and the self discipline that attracted me.
Something I have thought a lot about is why people here in the states do martial arts. What drives people to choose MA and to train. My answer as of today is a bit complex and revolves around psychology.
For some reason certain people have a fear of violence and that fear even though it may be small causes anxiety. some people are very sensitive to this anxiety. They have a subconscious need to relieve the anxiety and stress and martial arts fills that role. This has a ripple effect of ramifications. One major factor that should be understood is that it is the perceived ability to deal with violence, this means that the training does not actually have to address violence but only the anxiety. It can be a paper tiger and still be good enough for the student as long as it appears real and relieves the anxiety and stress. This is because it is not the end result that is needed but only the process. The process, the training causes hope, a light at the end of the tunnel. As long as the person is on the path the stress is kept in check and is manageable.

That being said I am curious on why this would not hold true in Japan. Perhaps in Japan the pressure of obligation outweighs any thoughts of personal insecurity.
 

Hyoho

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Something I have thought a lot about is why people here in the states do martial arts. What drives people to choose MA and to train. My answer as of today is a bit complex and revolves around psychology.
For some reason certain people have a fear of violence and that fear even though it may be small causes anxiety. some people are very sensitive to this anxiety. They have a subconscious need to relieve the anxiety and stress and martial arts fills that role. This has a ripple effect of ramifications. One major factor that should be understood is that it is the perceived ability to deal with violence, this means that the training does not actually have to address violence but only the anxiety. It can be a paper tiger and still be good enough for the student as long as it appears real and relieves the anxiety and stress. This is because it is not the end result that is needed but only the process. The process, the training causes hope, a light at the end of the tunnel. As long as the person is on the path the stress is kept in check and is manageable.

That being said I am curious on why this would not hold true in Japan. Perhaps in Japan the pressure of obligation outweighs any thoughts of personal insecurity.

Thanks for that opinion. That explains a lot.

Japan is not a violent society. Admittedly there are few cases like the recent sword problem. It's not as law abiding as they would like to think either because they keep things out of the media. But people dont usually have guns. They have faith in the system and stress and anxiety are in other things like work. Just forced into very very busy life by society. Hard to tell the difference beween a plain clothes policeman and yakuza who meet and reach a certain understanding.
 

jobo

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The only way to deal with multiple opponents is to train to deal with multiple opponents. How can not training to deal wih multiple opponents not be a fail in of his training. Clearly that’s exactly what it is.
are you really suggesting that such training would have altered the out come significantly ?
 

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