Martial Arts Aren't Magic

hoshin1600

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Thanks for that opinion. That explains a lot.

Japan is not a violent society. Admittedly there are few cases like the recent sword problem. It's not as law abiding as they would like to think either because they keep things out of the media. But people dont usually have guns. They have faith in the system and stress and anxiety are in other things like work. Just forced into very very busy life by society. Hard to tell the difference beween a plain clothes policeman and yakuza who meet and reach a certain understanding.

It is interesting to me that you say the Japanese have faith in their system. Generally in the US we dont. Many view the government and law enforcement as the enemy.
I think the concept of violence anxiety is a symptom of the bigger issue of self reliance. In the west we have the pressures of being self reliant, somthing I believe is not prevalent in Japan.
Being self reliant means the responsibility of self preservation and self protection falls on the individual. In the US we see ourselves as individuals, I think ( let me know if I am incorrect) in Japan they see themselves as part of a group. Is it possible that group identity is stronger than individual identity? This could make a big difference on how martial arts manifests itself in different cultures.
 

Paul_D

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are you really suggesting that such training would have altered the out come significantly ?
I’m suggesting he best way to deal with multiple opponents is to train to deal with multiple opponents, as opposed to not training to deal with them and then having no understanding, no training and no skills to deal with it if it happens.
 

Paul_D

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his inability to even attempt to justify it does
He wasn’t unable, he said he couldn’t be bothered to argue with you. If it’s something you’ll never understand he’s just banging his head against a brick wall.
 

jobo

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I’m suggesting he best way to deal with multiple opponents is to train to deal with multiple opponents, as opposed to not training to deal with them and then having no understanding, no training and no skills to deal with it if it happens.
well if your not suggesting different training would have given a different out come, then you can't really say the training he did have let him down.

outside the world of the,kung fu movies, 7 opoinent is always going to end up with you being a bit beaten up, unless they are 12 yo girls, even then.?
 

jobo

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He wasn’t unable, he said he couldn’t be bothered to argue with you. If it’s something you’ll never understand he’s just banging his head against a brick wall.
they always say that if they have been pulled on talk tosh,
 

Paul_D

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well if your not suggesting different training would have given a different out come
I’m suggesting the best way to prepare for multiple opponents is to train for multiple opponents, rather than not training for multiple opponents and then having no training no understanding and no skills to deal with multiple opponents.
 

jobo

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I’m suggesting the best way to prepare for multiple opponents is to train for multiple opponents, rather than not training for multiple opponents and then having no training no understanding and no skills to deal with multiple opponents.
but that's a completely different point, than the one were you said that. Guys training had failed. But even then there arnt any skills that will allow you to fight 7 opponents, so he would still have been beaten up.

its like saying someone whose rope broke when absailing should have trained free falling, it wouldn't have made the slightest differance to the out come
 

Danny T

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5 maybe 6 years back a group of UFC fighters were involved in a training program with the U.S. Marines where they were either attacked by 2 man teams of Marines or they attacked the marines. Most of the attacks had the fighters with more numbers than that of the marines with the fighters losing almost every encounter even when they had the upper hand with surprise as well as numbers. That said the marines had the advantage of home territory (being outside in the rough terrain and snow), having trained as two man teams with weapons vs 4 or 6 man teams. All encounters were hand to hand with and without weapons.
Training vs multiple opponents is different than fighting a single person. The overall strategies are different and some important tactics are different. The idea of engagement is different, when to engage and how is different.
 

Hyoho

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It is interesting to me that you say the Japanese have faith in their system. Generally in the US we dont. Many view the government and law enforcement as the enemy.
I think the concept of violence anxiety is a symptom of the bigger issue of self reliance. In the west we have the pressures of being self reliant, somthing I believe is not prevalent in Japan.
Being self reliant means the responsibility of self preservation and self protection falls on the individual. In the US we see ourselves as individuals, I think ( let me know if I am incorrect) in Japan they see themselves as part of a group. Is it possible that group identity is stronger than individual identity? This could make a big difference on how martial arts manifests itself in different cultures.

True because Japanese are Japanese. Nationality bonds them together. In some ways so much that its completely over the top with company taking preference to a family unit. Then when they do become individualistic they split and form yet another group.

It can actually be a group conciousness that exceeds race and nationality 'if' you belong to that group and are in Japan.

Losing face is very bad in Asia, so not just the individual but the whole group loses face.

Individuality is taking something that others can do then adding ones own character to it. For others to sit wtch and admire what you have added rather than changed.

Politically a leader takes few descisions. They confer with party and sempai. In the past a prime example of leadership gone wrong.

My study over many years has been one of cultural activity. I find it sad that many more dont look at MA is this way.
 

JP3

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I'm not referring to a world champ, just training with intent. In your example, the mom should at least recognize the opportunity from enrolling her kids in that class. She shouldn't expect her child to be the next world champion, but to understand the value of what they could learn and encourage them to do so.
In a word, Why?

Why "should" she do that? If her outcome values what you are talking about, perhaps. I'd agree with you, myself, but I can't, and neither can you, substitute your own judgment for hers as it applies to her child, unless you are going to go that far into authoritarian paternalism (being everyone's dad).

Typical martial arts types seem to have different value structures than typical non-MA types. Maybe, to her, all that build up of skill is a gross waste of her child's time and energy, to get something he/she will never use. I'd disagree with her, but I can definitely see where she has the right to make that determination.
 

hoshin1600

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Typical martial arts types seem to have different value structures than typical non-MA types.
i am very interested in this idea. can you elaborate on this?
 
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Anarax

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Why "should" she do that?
It's an opportunity that will otherwise be wasted. In your example the mother has already enrolled her child in the class. The only thing the child must do to gain so much more is apply him or herself. The child will gain valuable self defense skills if she simply encourages him or her. Both children and adults place too much value on belt ranks. Both children and adults have this mentality of "I am a (insert rank) belt, thus I can defend myself." Giving those with very little to no combative skills the idea that they know how to fight/defend themselves is a recipe for disaster. Confidence is great, but confidence in that which you are not good at is dangerous.

If her outcome values what you are talking about, perhaps.
Why would the mother not want their child to be able to defend themselves?

substitute your own judgment for hers as it applies to her child, unless you are going to go that far into authoritarian paternalism (being everyone's dad)
Don't know where you got that from? I stated the same for adults. I've witnessed this numerous times and have never forced by beliefs on anyone.

I'd disagree with her, but I can definitely see where she has the right to make that determination.
My post was never about depriving someone of their rights. It's about both children and adults can get so much more out of martial arts if they apply themselves. Coasting through training isn't going to help them if they get into an altercation.
 
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Anarax

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The only way to deal with multiple opponents is to train to deal with multiple opponents. How can not training to deal wih multiple opponents not be a fail in of his training. Clearly that’s exactly what it is.

No it isn't, you're generalizing and painting with a broad brush. You are essentially saying this one example you found that the supports the claim you already believed shows that anyone who doesn't train how to fight multiple opponents will not be able to defend themselves against multiple opponents.

I can take your logic and find someone who does train against multiple opponents and loses against multiple opponents. I can then say, see? training against multiple opponents is ineffective. It doesn't make sense.
 

Paul_D

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but that's a completely different point, than the one were you said that. Guys training had failed. But even then there arnt any skills that will allow you to fight 7 opponents, so he would still have been beaten up.
Correct, there are no skills that will allow you to follow to fight 7 people when you are unconscious, because you have never trained for multiple opponents and so don’t look at what is going on around you, and get blindsided. Where as of course the best way to deal with multiple opponents is to only train against one opponent so all you have ever done is focus solely on them at the exclusion of his mates coming at you from behind. Yes that’s a much better idea, I mean what can that possibly go wrong...

its like saying someone whose rope broke when absailing should have trained free falling, it wouldn't have made the slightest differance to the out come
It’s not even close to saying that.
 

gpseymour

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It's not oversimplified. The point is some put so little effort into it and still expect amazing results. It is a simple concept of "you fight how you train" and "you get back what you put in", but it's not oversimplified. Even if your goal is fitness in martial arts, you should still be putting effort in.
In my experience, the proportion of students who put in minimal effort AND expect to be great is very small. There are, indeed, many students who just do the work in class, no more and no less. Most are quite happy with their progress, or lack thereof. They like the community of the school, the physical activity, and being able to call themselves martial artists. Those who are dissatisfied with their progress tend to work harder.
 

gpseymour

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Not necessarily.
Agreed. In most cases, if the MA instructor is doing good work (not even necessarily considering fighting ability), the kid it likely better off. They're getting socialization, maybe some team work experience, learning to take direction, developing some physical ability, probably developing some discipline. The kind of stuff that many children get from other sports. If the instructor isn't doing good work, there's some bad that can come from being in a MA school.
 

gpseymour

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To you it seems that way yes.
I don't know of any realistic approach that makes 7-1 not overwhelming odds, without a great deal of luck, other than getting shots off before they get close enough to do damage, so maybe they stop attacking and start running for their lives.
 

JR 137

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The point that ANYONE, no matter who he is and how accomplished a MAist he is, got beaten by 7 guys at the same time is SO STUPID that it genuinely deserves zero consideration and rebuttal.
 

oftheherd1

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No it's not. Finding a video of a professional fighter getting overwhelmed by 5 or more people isn't proof of his claim. Look up the other cases of professional fighters getting into altercations outside the ring, then tell me they're training wasn't effective

If you are taking about professional fighters getting into fights outside the ring against groups of 5 people, I would like to know the circumstances and outcome vs TMA fighters who do the same, then factor in TMA who may not have had training defending against boxers and also believe in fighting fair. Are professional fighters or TMA practitioners fighting against groups of drunken thug wannbees or experienced street fighters?

But regardless, your assertion that training to fight against more than one attacker would not make you better at that, is frankly, quite ridiculous. That can be expanded to say that no training will help anyone to fight better. TMA, newer MA, boxing, nothing. So either you can fight or not. No training will help you. Do you support that?

If you want to argue the odds of any fighter, TMA or otherwise, winning against 2 attackers, or 3, or 4, 7 or 10, that would make more sense. But there are so many possible variables I think it would be very difficult.
 
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