"My kid needs discipline"

[theletch1]

While reading another thread I read a statement by an instructor here on the board that read (paraphrase) "If a parent expects me to be their child's disciplinarian they're in for a big surprise." I could not agree more with this statement. So many times I've seen folks come into the dojo and during the conversation they'll say something along the lines of "Well, he's uncontrollable at home and school so we thought putting him in a martial arts class would teach him some discipline." A couple hours a week in a dojo/dojang/kwoon etc is not going to instill discipline in a child. It will, IMHO, re-enforce some of what they are getting at home but won't do a thing if the parents allow little Johnny to he a hellion the other days of the week.

As parents, instructors, potential classmates of these students what do you guys think the role of the dojo is in the discipline...no, self control of children?

 

[shesulsa]

Ironic, isn't it, that these are often the same parents who want to know why their child isn't promoted when they want to be?

One lady asked me if martial arts was really good for teaching kids discipline and I said, "In classes I teach they will be disciplined *children* - which means I expect them to behave as children learning self-discipline, not as disciplined adults. But I'm not their parent."

You know that if you start doling out push ups and fingertips and such that this will be the first parent on your case, right? *Rarely* have I had someone thank me for disciplining their discipline-challenged child.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think that turning a class into a military drill and discipline style environment because that is what a few parents want would be doing a huge disservice to all the kids that are there because they want to have fun.

I also think that respect and behaviour are best learnt through doing something fun then being "disciplined". A game has rules, all games do. Whether it is sparring, tennis, football or monopoly. People that don't play by the rules of the game will learn the lesson that no one wants to play with people that can't follow the rules of the game.

That, IMO, is where sports, and martial arts is included in that, can help in teaching discipline. Because what we really do is teach a game, a game with rules that need to be followed for the game to work. Fair play and sportsmanship in one area can effect other areas of life as well.

But the snap to attention, say "yes sir" and bow everytime someone sneezes discipline that most parents making this sort of request want I believe would do more harm then good. It's fake, it's false respect motivated by fear and authority. Once the authority stops looking, or loses the ability to create fear the problem becomes worse, and the lesson that is taught is that power comes through intimidation.

 

[shesulsa]

I think that turning a class into a military drill and discipline style environment because that is what a few parents want would be doing a huge disservice to all the kids that are there because they want to have fun.

I also think that respect and behaviour are best learnt through doing something fun then being "disciplined". A game has rules, all games do. Whether it is sparring, tennis, football or monopoly. People that don't play by the rules of the game will learn the lesson that no one wants to play with people that can't follow the rules of the game.

That, IMO, is where sports, and martial arts is included in that, can help in teaching discipline. Because what we really do is teach a game, a game with rules that need to be followed for the game to work. Fair play and sportsmanship in one area can effect other areas of life as well.

But the snap to attention, say "yes sir" and bow everytime someone sneezes discipline that most parents making this sort of request want I believe would do more harm then good. It's fake, it's false respect motivated by fear and authority. Once the authority stops looking, or loses the ability to create fear the problem becomes worse, and the lesson that is taught is that power comes through intimidation.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[terryl965]

I think that turning a class into a military drill and discipline style environment because that is what a few parents want would be doing a huge disservice to all the kids that are there because they want to have fun.

I also think that respect and behaviour are best learnt through doing something fun then being "disciplined". A game has rules, all games do. Whether it is sparring, tennis, football or monopoly. People that don't play by the rules of the game will learn the lesson that no one wants to play with people that can't follow the rules of the game.

That, IMO, is where sports, and martial arts is included in that, can help in teaching discipline. Because what we really do is teach a game, a game with rules that need to be followed for the game to work. Fair play and sportsmanship in one area can effect other areas of life as well.

But the snap to attention, say "yes sir" and bow everytime someone sneezes discipline that most parents making this sort of request want I believe would do more harm then good. It's fake, it's false respect motivated by fear and authority. Once the authority stops looking, or loses the ability to create fear the problem becomes worse, and the lesson that is taught is that power comes through intimidation.

I actually agree with you Andrew

 

[14 Kempo]

I think that turning a class into a military drill and discipline style environment because that is what a few parents want would be doing a huge disservice to all the kids that are there because they want to have fun.

I also think that respect and behaviour are best learnt through doing something fun then being "disciplined". A game has rules, all games do. Whether it is sparring, tennis, football or monopoly. People that don't play by the rules of the game will learn the lesson that no one wants to play with people that can't follow the rules of the game.

That, IMO, is where sports, and martial arts is included in that, can help in teaching discipline. Because what we really do is teach a game, a game with rules that need to be followed for the game to work. Fair play and sportsmanship in one area can effect other areas of life as well.

But the snap to attention, say "yes sir" and bow everytime someone sneezes discipline that most parents making this sort of request want I believe would do more harm then good. It's fake, it's false respect motivated by fear and authority. Once the authority stops looking, or loses the ability to create fear the problem becomes worse, and the lesson that is taught is that power comes through intimidation.

... and I suppose I'll be the third to agree with this philosophy ... couldn't state it any better.

 

[Tez3]

I have a 7 year old boy in my class whose father brought him to us as he said he needed discipline, he wanted something like Judo or 'hard' karate to make him knuckle down. so we took him saying well we don't shout or make them do press ups etc but we did like things orderly and we try to engender self discipline.
Oh dear lord I wish we hadn't taken him in, he's unlike any child I've had to deal with in 30 years of MA/ Scouting/Guiding.Playgroups etc. Knuckle down? this child isn't even on the same planet as the rest of us! His mother is in despair as we are after trying to teach him. I'm trying to think how to describe him, we've been trying to teach him the first kata for nine months now, it's not that he can't do it but won't do it. If he finds he's making the right moves he will change them, if you ask him to do anything he does it as slow as he can all the time looking at you with what is called 'dumb insolence' in the forces! He is convinced he is superior to us all! At some point he discovered he can roll his eyes up into his head so does so just when the other children are concentrating. He will do everything he can to disrupt the class in a way that attracts him attention, he'll stop in the middle of linework to do his belt up, taking five minutes or more. He'll even just sit down if he doesn't want to do anything, will talk over you when you're teaching and disturb everything and everyone. We have shouted at him, absolutely nothing, seems to enjoy it in fact.
Now we could ask him to leave but we hate to be beaten. Other parents have suggested that his parents should ask for him to be 'statemented' at school which means he is referred to a child pychologist to see if he needs help but it's a heck of a thing to suggest to his mother. We suspect too that he's spoilt by his father who wants us to be the discipline in his life, well even if we could be there's no way this child can be sorted by us!

 

[MJS]

While reading another thread I read a statement by an instructor here on the board that read (paraphrase) "If a parent expects me to be their child's disciplinarian they're in for a big surprise." I could not agree more with this statement. So many times I've seen folks come into the dojo and during the conversation they'll say something along the lines of "Well, he's uncontrollable at home and school so we thought putting him in a martial arts class would teach him some discipline." A couple hours a week in a dojo/dojang/kwoon etc is not going to instill discipline in a child. It will, IMHO, re-enforce some of what they are getting at home but won't do a thing if the parents allow little Johnny to he a hellion the other days of the week.

As parents, instructors, potential classmates of these students what do you guys think the role of the dojo is in the discipline...no, self control of children?

This will always amaze me. I've seen this many times myself. I guess I'll never understand why people always expect someone else to take responsibility for their lack of common sense or failures in life. Its really no different than parents asking why their kid is not advancing. Well, are you working with them? Are you making sure they're practicing on their own? Are you watching the class, and asking the inst. questions afterwards, so you know what our kid needs to focus on? If they answer no to any of those, that is the first problem.

Discipline needs and should start in the home. The dojo is secondary to that IMO.

Mike

 

[theletch1]

This will always amaze me. I've seen this many times myself. I guess I'll never understand why people always expect someone else to take responsibility for their lack of common sense or failures in life. Its really no different than parents asking why their kid is not advancing. Well, are you working with them? Are you making sure they're practicing on their own? Are you watching the class, and asking the inst. questions afterwards, so you know what our kid needs to focus on? If they answer no to any of those, that is the first problem.

Discipline needs and should start in the home. The dojo is secondary to that IMO.

Mike

Mike, that reminds me of the something I heard once that was along the lines of "Combat doesn't create heroism, it just brings out what's already there." The dojo is no place to start if discipline is what's needed. It's just a place to re-enforce what's being taught in the home. Parents, if you've got time to bring the kid to the dojo to train then you've got time to spend with the child on your own teaching, by example, that discipline. Too often kids like the one in Tez's post are the result of children who are completely and utterly ignored at home. Sure, they do soccer, MA, dance and a thousand other activities but how many of those are places where mom or dad just drops them off and disappears for the time they're doing the activity?

 

[tshadowchaser]

well far be it for me to disagree on this subject.

About 1/2 of the children that have ever been brought into one of my classes has had (and most likely still have) discipline problems.
As has been said, parents will come in and say " he needs to learn discipline" or he is a little over active ( now that’s an understatement for most of them, or "can you teach him how to listen and obey".
I have finally given up teaching most children because of these cases. Now I ask is "he/she disciplined" and I tell parents straight out I am not a baby sitter and disciplinary problems need to be handled at home that I can only do so much and the child needs to learn to be respectful of others all the time.
If a child is so undisciplined that they can not (read will not) follow simple orders in class or always are disrupting the class then they are taking away from the rest of the classes learning. I used to have the kids do push ups or sit ups if someone was undisciplined but found that the one being undisciplined often thought it was funny for the class to do exercises for their screw up.
Now I am not saying that the rules in a class may not help some children be more respectful. obedient, pay better attention, etc. but I have found more often than not that if they come in with problem they leave soon after with the same problems

 

[Ceicei]

I guess it depends upon the reason why they're enrolled and whether the children actually want to be there in the first place.

Several years ago, my husband and my oldest son were getting into physical fights, it was getting scary. Holes in walls, etc. They didn't get serious injuries, but I knew it wouldn't be long until that would happen. At that time, I had been out of practicing kenpo for years. I wondered what I could possibily do without ripping my family apart?

One day, my sons were looking through some storage boxes and came across one from my college days (before I married) containing my gi, belts, sparring gear, some trophies, and medals. They asked me about these things. I shared some fun experiences I had.... Then they both asked (literally begged) whether they could take up karate?

I thought, "Uummmm, why not?" I figured that perhaps they, with this interest, may be able to learn how to defend themselves and gain some respect which might "transfer" back into the family.

A few of my friends who knew of my familial problem thought this was a crazy idea, predicting there would be more violence. I disagreed, because of myself already trained in martial arts for a few years previously, I knew MA does not necessarily create/escalate violence, but helps to understand how to diffuse and handle violence should it ever happen again. That would be a good thing for my sons....

Signing them up was the best decision I've ever made. My boys wanted to be there at the kenpo studio. They learned to train hard and work with challenges, learning responsibility and respect along the way. Discipline? Yes, they learned that too. My oldest son learned self control with his temper, so that my husband and he did not get into physical fights any more. My husband recognized my son's strength and self confidence and learned to back off. My son learned more patience and and found different ways to handle conflict. My boys love kenpo. My husband and my boys then got along well and my husband supports their training. He really enjoys watching them train.

A few months after they started, I returned to kenpo again--the lure of training was too strong---I realized how much I loved physically training. Nearly six years passed since and I am still training and working towards my black belt.

Did I expect kenpo karate to teach discipline? It wasn't the primary purpose why I signed them up (my primary reason was for my sons to learn defense), although I hoped that as a result of training hard, they might learn some self-discipline.

Anyway, family life became better, and that was the best benefit.

- Ceicei

 

[Kacey]

Have I had students whose parents (or selves, in the case of a few adults) enrolled them so they could learn "discipline"? Certainly. The culture of the class is such that, as long as only 1 or 2 truly undisciplined children come at a time... interestingly enough, most the students I've had enrolled who are "discipline" problems elsewhere are not problems in my class. I've had multiple students with psychiatric disorders that landed them in special education programs for emotionally disturbed students, even a couple who were hospitalized - and never had a problem with any of them; in fact, without exception, their parents reported improvement that extended to home and school while they were in class. And I never knew any of them had these problems from their behavior in class; only after they'd been in class a few weeks or months did their parents tell me about their problems. It's why I'll let any student try - but rarely, there's one I won't let stay.

The ones who are are generally the worst are the truly spoiled ones - like this one:

I had a student rather like the one Tez described - not quite as bad, as he made it to red belt - but around blue belt he decided he didn't want to be there any more... and his parents told him he was too close to black belt and wouldn't let him quit. This went over so well that one day when they dropped him off at the door of the Y, he waited until they left and ran across the street to the shopping plaza, hung out for 90 minutes, and came back - slightly late - which is how they caught him. He was 11 or 12 at the time. He's also one who's parents would drop off his younger brother "to see if he's ready to start yet" every time they needed a babysitter and couldn't get one (that lasted til the 3rd time, when I refused to let him into class to mess around, and left him in the front room, unattended - safe enough, as we're in the basement, but still not what they wanted for their 7 year-old). From about blue belt onward, even though he was reasonably good for his age, if it wasn't a game or a contest, I couldn't get him to perform. That lasted until he tested for 1st gup red belt, and failed - not because he couldn't perform appropriately, but because he couldn't be bothered to demonstrate that he could perform properly - one of the very few students I've ever had who failed a test. His parents came in, very upset that he'd been failed, and asked why - so I went over every area of the test, explained his scores, and (as I had been instructed to do) provided them with the testing instructor's phone and email if they had any questions. After dad and son discussed their next step for about 10 minutes, I reminded them that dues were due that evening (another problem I'd had with that family was that they only paid dues when I started leaving the student in that same front room when they didn't pay - which was about every other session) - I've never seen him since. Another student of mine whose kids went to the same school told me the boy went steadily downhill after that, which is too bad - he was a good kid, but horribly spoiled, in terms of being allowed to have his own way all the time - but as is too often true, it wasn't just the child who needed discipline, even moreso, it was the parents.

 

[MBuzzy]

Honestly, I'm not sure if I can say that I agree or disagree with the others on the thread. I do not believe that Martial Arts is "the answer" for undisciplined kids and that parents can just drop them off and let us do it for them. But I do think it can help. Martial Arts should be fun, yes, but respect is necessary, at least in my style - forced or not. We run a pretty regimented class and we do bow at every sneeze and refer to each other as sir. ESPECIALLY in the kid's class.

We have one very badly undisciplined child. I know that his mother does the best that she can, but he comes from a slightly less than optimal family situation. As far as I'm concerned, he needs this. We have a hard time controlling him sometimes, but even within the few months that I've been there, I've seen a marked improvement. My instructor has told me that its just a gradual improvement over his whole time there. I believe it....of course, he has some bad days, but he's having more good days.

I don't know if it is forced respect or not, but so far....push ups work.

I definately don't think of Martial Arts as a game or anything close. It is possible to call it a sport also, but I don't consider it that....but then, all of that is just semantics.

I know that this is a rare case, but the child that I'm talking about....we actually DO get thanked, every class, for our efforts to instill some discipline in the kid. His mother loves it. She encourages us and helps, also tries to reinforce the things that we've taught him. She even uses Korean terms, such as Moo Doo, Shi Sun, and Shin Gum at home. She is also the LAST to complain about push ups, a military environment, or our discipline of the kid.

But - I completely agree that discipline starts at home....we just continue it. The rest of the behaves very well.

 

[MJS]

Mike, that reminds me of the something I heard once that was along the lines of "Combat doesn't create heroism, it just brings out what's already there." The dojo is no place to start if discipline is what's needed. It's just a place to re-enforce what's being taught in the home. Parents, if you've got time to bring the kid to the dojo to train then you've got time to spend with the child on your own teaching, by example, that discipline. Too often kids like the one in Tez's post are the result of children who are completely and utterly ignored at home. Sure, they do soccer, MA, dance and a thousand other activities but how many of those are places where mom or dad just drops them off and disappears for the time they're doing the activity?

I used to get the feeling that the class was designed to be a 1/2 hr or 45 min babysitting class. More times than I can count, I'd see the kid walk in and walk out by themselves. Tell the child that you needed to speak with their mom or dad about something? Man, you'd think I was asking for a million bucks or something.

I've always felt that its important to be active and show an interest in your childs activities. Show up at some baseball or soccer games. Show up and watch some classes. Talk to the instructor and coach.

 

[Big Don]

"My kid needs discipline"

So, discipline your kid! This is not anyone's job but yours, don't screw it up.

 

[exile]

So, discipline your kid! This is not anyone's job but yours, don't screw it up.

Don, check out the first post and followups... the whole thrust of the thread is about the problem created by people who drop their child into a MA class thinking that the class will be a kind of mini-boot camp that will straighten out whatever discipline/self-control problems the kid is having. Jeff's point in the OP is that this is a serious misconception of the MAs that many people have...

 

[Guardian]

You know it still just amazes me now a days that quite a few parents haven't a clue as to raising their kids, they think school teachers should be disciplining their kids for them, then to the MA Instructors/Schools or Dojo's should be teaching their kids discipline.

I know their is no easy way to raising kids if done right, but common sense sure would help out.

No, in my view, if the parents are not going to enforce discipline, then no one else can on a part-time basis.

 

[Shotochem]

You know it still just amazes me now a days that quite a few parents haven't a clue as to raising their kids, they think school teachers should be disciplining their kids for them, then to the MA Instructors/Schools or Dojo's should be teaching their kids discipline.

I know their is no easy way to raising kids if done right, but common sense sure would help out.

No, in my view, if the parents are not going to enforce discipline, then no one else can on a part-time basis.

Which is why you NEED 2 FULLtime parents. You can't expect others to do the job for you. Lazy parenting is the root of the problem.

Someone stated that "It takes a village to raise a child"

In my personal experience, the are quite a few villages missing their idiots.

Its the PARENTS responsibility to discipline, nurture and guide their children. Its not easy. They don't come with an instruction manual.

But, we can all manage if we try.

-Marc-

 

[tellner]

Some time back the Charles Barkley was interviewed and asked if he thought he was a good role model. His reply? "They pay me to put the ball through the hoop. You should raise your own children."

 

[Nomad]

My view on this is a little different. I think that a good martial arts instructor can be hugely beneficial to kids that need a little more discipline in their lives.

The classes tend to be structured, and kids coming in learn very quickly what is and what is not acceptable. It is an "easier" environment for them to show good behaviour because of the structure.

Also, as a parent, I find that sometimes we are "too" close to our kids; some things we say are automatically discounted because it's mom or dad that's saying it. For some reason, some messages come across better when delivered by others, such as their karate instructor. For his part, he tends to have a message nearly every class... these messages build on each other and reinforce each other through repetition and through great examples he brings up which the kids can relate to through their training and through their experience at school, etc.

As a parent as well as a student, I have also spent considerable time listening to the kids classes and have yet to find a message I've disagreed with. These can become topics of conversation between me and my kids later to expand on some of the ideas and get their feedback on it as well.

I am not saying that the karate school should be the sole source of discipline (far from it), but if done right it can be a great source that reinforces what parents are trying to teach their kids.