Martial Art or Fight Club?

[shesulsa]

There's a lot of discussion on the web, in the dojo, even right here on MT that street fighting is the only viable test to self-defense martial arts.

So I gotta ask ... are you enrolled in a martial art? or a fight club?

Do you think that those who go brawl it out in the street to 'test their art' are in a fight club? What's the difference between that and bad boy posturing?

We all know that as much as some folks like to believe, brawling to test one's toughness in the street is no new invention or sparkling new training method. Nor is it always necessarily the test of the best.

What, in your opinion, is the bottom-line difference between a fight club and a martial art that takes it to the bar brawl level and the street fight level, using those venues for testing viability?

 

[Ric Flair]

There's a lot of discussion on the web, in the dojo, even right here on MT that street fighting is the only viable test to self-defense martial arts.

So I gotta ask ... are you enrolled in a martial art? or a fight club?

Do you think that those who go brawl it out in the street to 'test their art' are in a fight club? What's the difference between that and bad boy posturing?

We all know that as much as some folks like to believe, brawling to test one's toughness in the street is no new invention or sparkling new training method. Nor is it always necessarily the test of the best.

What, in your opinion, is the bottom-line difference between a fight club and a martial art that takes it to the bar brawl level and the street fight level, using those venues for testing viability?

It all depends on your intent in the martial arts.

1) are you doing it to look good infront of friends and on the t.v screen with all the flashy jumps and super duper high kicks and spins?

or

2) are you in it to beat people up?

or

3) Are you learning the arts to be efficient on the streets if someone surprises you and attacks you or a loved one?

I personally believe what Bruce Lee did was right while he was growing up in Hong Kong. He listened to Yip Man and tested the theories out in real fights.
Though today, there are a lot more knives and guns being pulled, so also we need to be careful if we are going to take it to the real life levels.

 

[mrhnau]

Another question then... at what point does your class turn into a fight club? are you going to teach someone how to throw a punch or kick and toss them on a street saying "go have fun". At what point do you let them test themselves in a real life scenario?

I personally believe what Bruce Lee did was right while he was growing up in Hong Kong. He listened to Yip Man and tested the theories out in real fights.
Though today, there are a lot more knives and guns being pulled, so also we need to be careful if we are going to take it to the real life levels.

one of my bouncer friends made a good point... you very seldom find a guy by himself. While you might be able to beat the tar out of someone, you need to be aware of his friend trying to knife you in the back. They don't wait until you are done with their friend before they come in like in the movies LOL

 

[tshadowchaser]

IMHO

If you are in the martial arts with only the intent of finding people you can beat up you have missed something in the arts.

Now if a club, school, etc., teaches their students then encourages them to go to a bar, club, school, etc., and start fights the owner of that school and whomever is there telling people to do so should be prosicuted by the law.

 

[stone_dragone]

For as many people who are in their respective martial arts, there are as many reasons for studying. Whether or not getting in a fight to prove one's martial prowess is acceptable is a function of a) the individual's motivation for studying; b) the person's social mores; c) their age (both actual and emotional) and; d) [I believe] their gender.

If a person begins the studying a martial art in order to survive on the streets/get back at "the bully", their motivation may lead to inital gratification of that need, but it will generally burn out or evolve into a higher motivation as that person either physically/emotionally matures, their situation improves or they just their *** kicked royally.

The majority of those that I talk to/read posts from/read about who "take it to the streets" to prove their art have a few things in common. Most are pre-middle age, blue collar males with either one or more brothers or a primarily male influencing group with larger than life egos and rather short tempers.

The problem that I personally have is that while I agree that the street is the only place to prove a martial art (and have had to do so from time to time), I think that to go seeking the opportunity to test yourself in a fight is pure egotism.

So, to answer the question...I study martial arts and abhor fight clubs. Violence is my job and I try to avoid work as often as possible.

my 2 biscuits.

 

[IcemanSK]

one of my bouncer friends made a good point... you very seldom find a guy by himself. While you might be able to beat the tar out of someone, you need to be aware of his friend trying to knife you in the back. They don't wait until you are done with their friend before they come in like in the movies LOL

I agree with this. In the days when Bruce Leee was "testing himself" on the streets, he didn't need to worry about that like he would today. I deal with gang members on a daily basis & teach their little brothers & sisters. My goal is to teach them that fighting isn't the answer & you don't have to be the toughest SOB on the block to be a man. I'm not teaching people to how fight on the street. I teaching people to avoid that stuff & to give them a better out look on their lives.

My 2 cents.

 

[MSUTKD]

I do not think that they meant that street fighting was the only test for self-defense. Actual training against non-compliant individuals “should/could/would” be one of the most important practices - if self-defense is your goal. Without making this a MMA vs TMA thread let’s look at practical training. (I am a TMA person not a MMA practitioner) In Judo, for example, when you learn to throw – you actually have to throw your partner. You know if it works right up front. When you grapple with them you know if the choke has been applied properly because they “tap out” to let you know. You actually learn relatively fast how to “make Judo work”. In the beginning levels of Taekwondo you “practice” punching and kicking. I might hit a bag or pad and even engage in some sparring but I am not trying to get my partner to give up and almost never do I actually hit them. Even though I may be a good kicker; without actually trying to kick someone I may not work out pitfalls inherent to kicking. I think the same would be for self-defense practice. Just doing “some moves” does not ensure that it will be effective. This is why “sport” style training can be effective. It allows for more “realistic”, albeit limited, contact and opportunity to work out the bugs. But of course it is not for everyone. I do not think that the study of TMA is less effective; but it definitely takes more time. Also many schools downplay the importance of physical conditioning, an important element in any combat activity.
Self-defense is the ability, for you, to be ready to protect yourself/loved one from danger. That danger could be 240lbs, 100lbs or someone with a weapon, how do you prepare for that? To study martial arts is one thing but to say you do self-defense is another. The self-defense practitioner has a lot of bases they need to cover. Are you really ready? Only the individual can answer that.

If you have never been in a fight, then you must be doing something right.

ron

 

[terryl965]

Well for me it is an Art first and foremost, self defense is second only to the Art and last we are a fight club are objective is to teach people how to say out of trouble but if it happens you should be able to defend yourself to some extreme.

Just my nickel
Terry

 

[still learning]

Hello, Getting real life experience is invalueable to what may work or don't?

At the same time, NO two real fights will be the same? Real fighting is total anything goes,no rules and anyone can/may join in,weapons can be drawn or pick-up.

Soldiers practice for wars.....until they get into one..it is always different?

What is the best answer HERE? ....practice your art....be wise...know awareness...stay humble...learn to walk/run away....life will last longer for you. Peace always work? .........so does a good hit! ....Aloha

 

[stickarts]

our school is a martial arts school and although we try to simulate a real fight, we do everything that we can to avoid an actual confrontation. A good point was made about there usually being more than one guy,also, even if you win the fight they may well come back with a gun tomorrow! We do everything we can to avoid a fight but if forced into it, everything we can to win it! :0) I don't think it is healthy if you have students going out to test their material! :0) Rather, let's test our skills at making friends!

 

[Grenadier]

I'll limit my comparisons to traditional martial arts versus the fight clubs.

The primary purpose of most traditional martial arts, IMHO, is to improve the individual. It's not about whether someone can defeat person X or person Y, but rather, whether the man has become better compared to the man he was just a month ago, or six months ago, or even 10 years ago.

Even when it comes to fair competition, getting medals, trophies, plaques, etc., are of secondary nature compared to seeing how far one has come along. It's more of a matter of what someone is able to take from the martial art. As he grows in experience, it then starts to become more of a matter of what can he give back to the martial art.

The fight clubs that bear some resemblances to the movie "Fight Club," are more about either fighting simply to prove who is better, or fighting for the sake of fighting. I wouldn't really put them in the same category.

 

[MJS]

IMHO

If you are in the martial arts with only the intent of finding people you can beat up you have missed something in the arts.

Excellent point!! As its been said, people join the arts for various reasons. Some people want to train for SD and others are happy with going a few times a week to get some exercise and learn some history of the chose art.

Without turning this into a pressure testing thread...:deadhorse ... I do think that it is important to add in some resistance, as this will certainly give you a different feel to the technique. Gearing up in a redman suit will allow you go kick up the intensity, while not causing serious injury to the 'attacker.' Does someone need to enter the UFC to test their material? No. Personally, I don't feel that its a good judge, considering the list of 'rules' is longer than my arm. On the other hand, do we need to go out an start a fight? Personally I don't think that is the best road to take either.

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was at a Bagua seminar many years ago and the Sifu holding the seminar told a story about his Sifu and fighting.

He said to his Sifu there was a bully in his neighborhood and he wanted to go stop this bully
His Sifu said don’t fight
He then said but you don’t understand he is really bothering everyone and picking on a lot of people
His Sifu said don’t fight.
He then said ok what if the bully has me cornered and my only way out is to fight
His Sifu said kill him
He responded I do not want to kill him just stop him from being a bully
His Sifu said a fight is a very serious thing, if you do not kill him he could come back and kill you in revenge for beating him up. And if you do kill him then you have to kill his family so they do not come back and take revenge on you and your family.

Me personally, I do not think the people advocating going out into the street to test their martial arts ability truly understand the seriousness of what they are getting them selves into.

Fighting is not something that anyone should take lightly.

 

[Carol]

Hey! First rule of Fight Club is...

Uhhh, we do what most corporate stiffs do when we're turned loose on the streets.

We pay XXX/month for our training, then we fight over the good parking spaces for our SUV's.

 

[bignick]

one of my bouncer friends made a good point... you very seldom find a guy by himself. While you might be able to beat the tar out of someone, you need to be aware of his friend trying to knife you in the back. They don't wait until you are done with their friend before they come in like in the movies LOL

One of my fellow judo compatriots has the best BJJ defense I've ever heard...your friend standing close by ready stomp their head into the ground when they're trying to choke you out.

I'm 6'5'' and about 327 lbs. I've put somebody down with a single punch to the solar plexus while they were wearing a chest protector and I was wearing padded gloves. I know I can injure somebody, easily. I didn't need martial art training for that, neither did you. Training against a restisting partner is an invaluable tool, but I feel no compulsion to go beating people up.

A judo instructor, a former marine with many decades in the martial arts, showed me his favorite defense against the angry/drunken person trying grab/attack you. A simple evasion or escape followed by a, "Hey! Good to see you again, I don't have time right now, but gotta catch up sometime when I can buy you a drink. Later!". And walk away.

Again, my judo instructor, also a former marine, with over 40 years in martial arts, 20 years in law enforcement and a 4th dan or higher in at least four styles once made what he described as the "mistake of wearing a jean jacket covered with tournament patches on it to a bar". When he stepped up the bar to order his drink some guy with something to prove grabbed his shoulder spun him around and told him his "Karate stuff was ****"...it was at this point when my instructor looked him square in the eye and said, "You know, being in love means you're not a peanut butter and jelly sandwich". The gentleman let him go, smoothed out his jacket and walked away looking a little disturbed/confused.

Martial arts are not about "fighting". They are about learning to protect yourself. There's a difference, and if you can't see it...I'm sorry.


By the way...the moral of the story was...

People don't like to pick fights with people they think might be insane.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My first martial art was Japanese Jujitsu, back in the days when you did not wear protective gear, and the teacher was very competent.

He was one of the most capable people I have ever seen when it came to disarming somebody, gun, Knife, Nunchuku, and in those days we trained at full speed, full contact and light contact (yes, I am old).

However my jujitsu teacher never told us about any real fights he had ever been in. He would tell us about the times he ran away. He said “if you can run, run. “

That way you don't get hurt and you don't have to hurt anyone else or worse. Because if you hurt someone else it is something you will always remember.

He had no need to prove anything to anyone and I feel if you are competent in your chosen martial art you will feel the same way.

 

[DeLamar.J]

There's a lot of discussion on the web, in the dojo, even right here on MT that street fighting is the only viable test to self-defense martial arts.

So I gotta ask ... are you enrolled in a martial art? or a fight club?

Do you think that those who go brawl it out in the street to 'test their art' are in a fight club? What's the difference between that and bad boy posturing?

We all know that as much as some folks like to believe, brawling to test one's toughness in the street is no new invention or sparkling new training method. Nor is it always necessarily the test of the best.

What, in your opinion, is the bottom-line difference between a fight club and a martial art that takes it to the bar brawl level and the street fight level, using those venues for testing viability?

There is a big difference between those who are ready for trouble, and those who look for trouble. Those who are ready for trouble, are real martial artists. Those who look for trouble, are punks who help to ruin the respectable reputation of martial arts.

 

[Rich Parsons]

There's a lot of discussion on the web, in the dojo, even right here on MT that street fighting is the only viable test to self-defense martial arts.

It is not the only viable test if you recognize the restraints that are put on you during the other ways of testing.

So I gotta ask ... are you enrolled in a martial art? or a fight club?

Martial Art.

Do you think that those who go brawl it out in the street to 'test their art' are in a fight club?

They might not be in a fight club. They might have problems. I had one student who said he drove around until he found a homeless type person, then parked his car and went to pick a fight with the guy.

I did my best to talk to his friends and family to get him some help. He did try, but not sure if it helped as other things in his life changed, and he about lost who he was.

If it is a fight club, and everyone agrees to it and enjoys it then so be it. Who am I to say otherwise. (* Although one could see below *)

What's the difference between that and bad boy posturing?

Posturing is what most people do, as a natural response to intimidate others to avoid killing your own species.

One could argue that a true Fight Club person has no avoidance to permanently hurt, maim, or kill their own species.

We all know that as much as some folks like to believe, brawling to test one's toughness in the street is no new invention or sparkling new training method. Nor is it always necessarily the test of the best.

True it is not always the test of the best skill, but of who is "ON" that day and willing to take it to the next level that the other person is not. Hence in thsoe situations I do not fight. I survive.

What, in your opinion, is the bottom-line difference between a fight club and a martial art that takes it to the bar brawl level and the street fight level, using those venues for testing viability?

The Martial Art type person usually is out to prove something to themselves so others will think better of them. Or they do it to make a point that they did this. Many also will not really pick the fight with someone the think can kick their ***.

While in my opinion, a Fight Club type person would not be there to prove anything to anyone else but to prove something to themsleves only, and would not trick someone into the conflict. It would be mutual, and most likely would be against someone they honestly thought could take them.


As others have mentioned they know they can hurt people. Before I started to train, I did and could put people into the hospital. The cool thing about Martial Arts was learning how to control people and damage them with out the extreme damage. Now this is not the normal reason for people to join a martial art. They learn to harden themselves up or for self-defense after they have add a conflict go wrong or bad.

 

[Swordlady]

IMHO

If you are in the martial arts with only the intent of finding people you can beat up you have missed something in the arts.

Now if a club, school, etc., teaches their students then encourages them to go to a bar, club, school, etc., and start fights the owner of that school and whomever is there telling people to do so should be prosicuted by the law.

Totally agree. I was talking with one of my fellow dojo mates about something similar yesterday. This particular student also runs his own dojo and teaches Kenpo (along with a couple other styles I can't remember). He has a rather interesting approach in teaching children. His emphasis is on defense rather than offense; i.e., how to defend yourself from bullies. The children are only allowed to spar him, not each other. This is to teach them self-control, and also because they would most likely be confronted by someone MUCH bigger than them.

I like his approach. I think a problem with many commercial dojos is that they place too much emphasis on winning fights, rather than the true spirit of the martial arts. Students ought to learn the history of their respective art, the meanings behind every movement, and also the code of conduct that is usually behind every style. Back in my teen years training in TKD, we recited "The Five Tenets of Tae Kwon Do" after every class. To my shame, I don't remember most of them, except "I will not misuse Tae Kwon Do". How seriously the students took them, I really don't know. I do remember that we were trained to use only light contact whenever we sparred, and direct blows were dealt with VERY quickly.

 

[Ric Flair]

Another question then... at what point does your class turn into a fight club? are you going to teach someone how to throw a punch or kick and toss them on a street saying "go have fun". At what point do you let them test themselves in a real life scenario?



one of my bouncer friends made a good point... you very seldom find a guy by himself. While you might be able to beat the tar out of someone, you need to be aware of his friend trying to knife you in the back. They don't wait until you are done with their friend before they come in like in the movies LOL

The streets are deadly. Winner(s) take all, loser loses all.
Out in the real world you play for keeps.

I've heard of a lot of arts where they prepare for weapons and multiple attackers. It looks often very flashy and, sometimes even looks realistic.

But I have also seen video clips of real life people fighting and either getting stabbed or, mobbed by a group of people. THe worst I have seen is someone getting shot during a corner store robbery, it was very quick and sudden (unlike the movies). None of these are pretty to watch and you seldom get these memories out of your head.

I believe a truly good school will teach you to be humble, to be smart, and to feel and react quickly when and if danger comes.
A Sifu or coach should teach you humility first. i'll cont this later.,