Martial Art good or Bad

[terryl965]

So earlier last month I was talking to alot of instructors at National up in Madison and the decussion came up whether MA is good or bad in today world.

Here is what alot of folks agree upon too many Mc daycares out there, BB are on every square inch of the towns Everybody and there mama has a system.

Here was some of the positive, better health, physical fitness, build confidence, brings people together.

What I found funny was not one single person mention SD until I did and they looked at me and said why would I teach SD if we do tournaments, that all our concentration to be towards tournament sparring. When did the concept change withen MA?

 

[exile]

So earlier last month I was talking to alot of instructors at National up in Madison and the decussion came up whether MA is good or bad in today world.

Here is what alot of folks agree upon too many Mc daycares out there, BB are on every square inch of the towns Everybody and there mama has a system.

Here was some of the positive, better health, physical fitness, build confidence, brings people together.

What I found funny was not one single person mention SD until I did and they looked at me and said why would I teach SD if we do tournaments, that all our concentration to be towards tournament sparring. When did the concept change withen MA?

Boy, is this a telling anecdote.

I'm going to write you later on tonight, Terry. Meanwhile, my take is: this isn't desirable—but it's kind of inevitable. My short story: the TMAs were created at a time of widespread lawlessness and social chaos in Asian societies, when everyone had to be his or her own main defender. Fast forward to the late 20th to early 21st centuries, when we have multiple layers of law enforcement and a huge judiciary at every level of government. People do not think they're ever going to be on the spot. Recreation, fitness, family activities, self-esteem-building... that they understand. The sucker punch from some disgruntled defective who suddenly decides you're to blame for all his problems... not so much, eh?

 

[kidswarrior]

What I found funny was not one single person mention SD until I did and they looked at me and said why would I teach SD if we do tournaments, that all our concentration to be towards tournament sparring. When did the concept change withen MA?

I don't think it changed within all MA's. The change seems to me to be on a continuum, from All Sport at one end, to All Combat at the other, and many points in between. I used to think that one end was all 'wrong', while my end was totally 'correct' in its thinking. Now, I believe it's a decision every MAist must make. What do you want from the arts, are you getting it, and if not, what are you doing about it?

And just so this doesn't come across as my being glib, it took me years to realize I was in some of the wrong places, spending a lot of time, money, sweat and blood on things that weren't getting me closer to my goals.

 

[Jenna]

BB are on every square inch of the towns

Hey Terry is the propagation of martial arts to every corner and every square inch not a good thing? Forgive me, maybe I do not understand your sentiment and but I had thought that spreading martial benefits as you mentioned, far and wide was a positive??

Everybody and there mama has a system.

I think there are the charlatans and snake-oil peddlers in pretty much every sector of our society. And but were all our venerated TMAs not at one stage a "new" system? Though many internet-spun systems are lightweight drivel, I think there are many new and hybrid systems now that have merit. I wonder is there a tendency among those of us in the "traditional" arts to look upon the "new systems on the block" with a certain snobbish derision? Are we snobs?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Xue Sheng]

So earlier last month I was talking to alot of instructors at National up in Madison and the decussion came up whether MA is good or bad in today world.

Here is what alot of folks agree upon too many Mc daycares out there, BB are on every square inch of the towns Everybody and there mama has a system.

Here was some of the positive, better health, physical fitness, build confidence, brings people together.

What I found funny was not one single person mention SD until I did and they looked at me and said why would I teach SD if we do tournaments, that all our concentration to be towards tournament sparring. When did the concept change withen MA?

Terry

I could and may go on much more about this and I might later, but if I do it now it will be a major rant.

Suffice to say I have nothing against sport MA or TMA all can train hard. However I pretty much believe that people like to fool themselves into thinking that just by the simple fact that they walk into a MA school and do a few kicks they are trained death machines. Give em’ a belt and they are certain of it. Get one sifu/Sensei/teacher that is a bit less than honest and you got a million of them that are certain of thier mastery of the art (or multiple arts) they train

People do not want to get hurt while training and if they do they may just sue the teacher. People do not want to train hard because that is too difficult. And everybody wants to be a master in 1 year or less or the system just doesn't work.

OK that was a mini rant but believe me it was much restrained.

 

[bluemtn]

I think there are the charlatans and snake-oil peddlers in pretty much every sector of our society. And but were all our venerated TMAs not at one stage a "new" system? Though many internet-spun systems are lightweight drivel, I think there are many new and hybrid systems now that have merit. I wonder is there a tendency among those of us in the "traditional" arts to look upon the "new systems on the block" with a certain snobbish derision? Are we snobs?

I don't really look on the "new" systems in a snobbish sort of a way, but with a healthy amount of caution. A lot of these new things (at least around where I live), like to cram a lot into their new system, which makes me wonder what good it does to have 7 styles lumped together. Not that teaching 2 styles is bad, but it's just how it's done.

To Terry's post, it really is all in the focus, and what is the general public into at the moment for several instructors. I've talked to new students, who have simply stated they're only in it for the exercise, and I've seen plenty of classes geared strictly to that. It sometimes seems like if you focus too much on one side or the other, the less amount of people are interested. I guess you can say that it's a sign of the times. Not everyone feels that self defense should be a huge priority, but fitness is top.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Terry

I could and may go on much more about this and I might later, but if I do it now it will be a major rant.

Suffice to say I have nothing against sport MA or TMA all can train hard. However I pretty much believe that people like to fool themselves into thinking that just by the simple fact that they walk into a MA school and do a few kicks they are trained death machines. Give em’ a belt and they are certain of it. Get one sifu/Sensei/teacher that is a bit less than honest and you got a million of them that are certain of thier mastery of the art (or multiple arts) they train

People do not want to get hurt while training and if they do they may just sue the teacher. People do not want to train hard because that is too difficult. And everybody wants to be a master in 1 year or less or the system just doesn't work.

OK that was a mini rant but believe me it was much restrained.

And much justified.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Look: either an art addresses self defense and it is a martial art, or it does not address it and it is a partial art. *shrug*.

 

[Flying Crane]

Boy, is this a telling anecdote.

aye, that was my thought...

 

[Flying Crane]

Hey Terry is the propagation of martial arts to every corner and every square inch not a good thing? Forgive me, maybe I do not understand your sentiment and but I had thought that spreading martial benefits as you mentioned, far and wide was a positive??

I'd wager that a big part of the crowd feel this way. Personally, I gotta kind of admit that I do not necessarily agree. In the modern age, the arts have often become something of a commodity, something to be bought and sold, or a vehicle to pursue wealth. As they grow, the quality often drops.

Personally, I always enjoyed doing something that most people AREN'T doing. I was training kenpo in a geographic area where most people were doing Tae Kwon Do. I started training in capoeira when most of the martial arts community hadn't even heard of it yet. I train Tibetan White Crane kungfu, which is a rare and dying art because many teachers elect to NOT teach it anymore because they lack faith in the ability of most modern students to learn it properly. I kind of like the obscurity. I sort of wish the arts weren't spreading as far and wide as they are. But that's just me.

I think there are the charlatans and snake-oil peddlers in pretty much every sector of our society. And but were all our venerated TMAs not at one stage a "new" system? Though many internet-spun systems are lightweight drivel, I think there are many new and hybrid systems now that have merit. I wonder is there a tendency among those of us in the "traditional" arts to look upon the "new systems on the block" with a certain snobbish derision? Are we snobs?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

yes, very good points here.

Maybe there is too much importance put on the idea of belonging to an organization, or training in a specific style. Really, all any teacher can do is teach what they have learned regardless of from whom they learned it. And if they are the innovative type, their training has lead them in a different direction from the parent art. If they are capable, their lineage will survive. If not, their lineage will die with them or after a generation or two. But it all comes down to just something that some guy is teaching to a bunch of others. In the past, this stuff didn't always even have a name, but that didn't affect its worth...

 

[Kacey]

I think that, to a large extent, the issue lies not with today's instructors - but with their instructors, back to the point where someone who was trained in self defense decided that that was no longer an important piece of that particular MA, and reduced the amount of time spent on it until it was completely gone. Many of today's instructors were taught by instructors who themselves did not learn self defense as part of the style - they don't actually know what's missing, because for them, it was never there.

From that point - when instructors started dropping out parts of the art(s) they were teaching and continued to retain - and even gain - students - that is the point at which McDojos became possible. Because that is the point at which someone realized success could be had teaching only part of the style. Along with other factors, such as increasing emphasis on tournament competition (to replace the missing self defense piece, as well as to provide incentive beyond belt testings to get students to stay) and you have a fertile ground for McDojos - because now you have an environment in which something is missing, and no one realizes it's gone. More, you get instructors who think that tournament sparring is self defense, and say they're teaching self defense when they're not (and may not realize it themselves).

Unfortunately, much of this is due to market forces, and I don't have a really good idea what to do about it.

 

[Andrew Green]

I've always seen self-defence as a side effect, not a goal in training. The chances of having to defend myself with unarmed fighting is pretty small, and truthfully I think I'd have gotten bored with learning how to hurt untrained people.

I also think it is not the best mentality to train with. I mean if a person is dedicating themself to "self-defence" and investing a good deal of time and effort into this as a practical goal, how often do you think that person starts believing the threat is far greater then it is? I feel safe out walking around, pretty much anywhere, even in the not so nice areas. I don't want that too change, I don't want to start training myself to constantly be thinking there could be a bad guy, chances are there isn't and I'd rather enjoy my walk then push borderline paranoia on myself like some of the extreme self-defence nuts do.

I also wonder how many people end up fantazing about using those skills. How long can most people train to cripple or maim the "bad guy" before they start almost hopping a bad guy will attack them so they can actually do so? Again, not a healthy mentallity, but its one that does exist, and we've definately seen on this site.

The most practical self-defence skill I've got out of training is the ability to take a fall fairly well, that one has saved me some injury in the past. I'm confident in my ability to fight, but I train to have fun on the mat, everything else is just a side effect.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Calling yourself a martial artist without any SD is about the same, IMO, as calling yourself a soldier because you can wear a uniform and knows how to march.

Now with that said I do feel that good (real) training in the sports side of things will give you some SD training but even some of the sports versions now are not training properly either just watch a match and you can see that.

Good TMA training will give you SD as well but good TMA schools are becoming few and far between.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Here is what alot of folks agree upon too many Mc daycares out there, BB are on every square inch of the towns Everybody and there mama has a system.

ok there are 3 points here :
First I agree that a day care and a martial training center are not the same. I see way to many 3-4-5- year olds running around in gi's and doing almost anything but a martial art. Not that i am against them learning at that age but lets be realistic, most of what they are learning and doing is exercise, and learning a little discipline.
2nd. I agree that everywhere you turn you find some one who has a black belt in this or that system. If you ask them what they studied and how long they studied they will proudly tell you and go on and on about it. Yet many never stayed in the arts for more than a couple of years to get their belt and most likely never stayed a year after. Many will have gotten their belts in less than 2 ½ years.
3rd
3rd.- yep, every one seems to have their own system that is a mix of what they claim to have studied. Trouble is most never got black belts in more than one system and might have only taken a seminar or two in half the others. These new masters or GM’s, professors, or whatever they want to call themselves may have never been in any system to be considered a master with in that organization but they sure belong to a group that promotes each other in their respective schools. YEP, study this or that for a year then try something else for a few months, watch a few dvd’s or youtube clips and call yourself a master of “kickmobuttgunfu”


As for self defense I think most school will tell you that what they do will protect you even if it will not. Way to many of these schools have no idea what really works in the street and even less knowledge of the legal implications ( not that I myself worry about the legal side if I have to defend myself) Hell most of these people have never been ina real street fight
:soapbox:

 

[Touch Of Death]

So earlier last month I was talking to alot of instructors at National up in Madison and the decussion came up whether MA is good or bad in today world.

Here is what alot of folks agree upon too many Mc daycares out there, BB are on every square inch of the towns Everybody and there mama has a system.

Here was some of the positive, better health, physical fitness, build confidence, brings people together.

What I found funny was not one single person mention SD until I did and they looked at me and said why would I teach SD if we do tournaments, that all our concentration to be towards tournament sparring. When did the concept change withen MA?

Every since Karate was invented, Karate has been a sport.
Sean

 

[Andrew Green]

Every since Karate was invented, Karate has been a sport.
Sean

Can go back a lot farther then karate in that regard. Sport fighting is pretty much a universal piece of culture, it's always there in some form.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Come on guys.

The martial arts are made up of PEOPLE. Some are good, some are bad, some, well they are just there to make a living. You cannot lump all martial arts studios or teachers as 'good or bad'. Some are quite good, some are real awful.

Daycare? Well tell you what. Try finding a bunch of adults willing to pay enough money to carry the school. You will find it real hard to get that many adults to stick with it. Kids, well that's the cash cow of MA. Without them most dojos would have been bankrupt long ago.

And one more thing. Tell me of one professon that has no bad apples, no faults, no hucksters. Even the Pope's own flock (and I'm Catholic) has some of those!

So I can't say the martial arts is bad. Some creeps in it, some paper mills, some fakes, but all in all, I'm glad it's there.

Deaf

 

[kidswarrior]

ok there are 3 points here :
First I agree that a day care and a martial training center are not the same. I see way to many 3-4-5- year olds running around in gi's and doing almost anything but a martial art. Not that i am against them learning at that age but lets be realistic, most of what they are learning and doing is exercise, and learning a little discipline.
2nd. I agree that everywhere you turn you find some one who has a black belt in this or that system. If you ask them what they studied and how long they studied they will proudly tell you and go on and on about it. Yet many never stayed in the arts for more than a couple of years to get their belt and most likely never stayed a year after. Many will have gotten their belts in less than 2 ½ years.
3rd
3rd.- yep, every one seems to have their own system that is a mix of what they claim to have studied. Trouble is most never got black belts in more than one system and might have only taken a seminar or two in half the others. These new masters or GM’s, professors, or whatever they want to call themselves may have never been in any system to be considered a master with in that organization but they sure belong to a group that promotes each other in their respective schools. YEP, study this or that for a year then try something else for a few months, watch a few dvd’s or youtube clips and call yourself a master of “kickmobuttgunfu”


As for self defense I think most school will tell you that what they do will protect you even if it will not. Way to many of these schools have no idea what really works in the street and even less knowledge of the legal implications ( not that I myself worry about the legal side if I have to defend myself) Hell most of these people have never been ina real street fight
:soapbox:

Yes, please henceforth address me as Herr Doctor, Grandmaster, and Founder of kickmobuttgunfu. :lool:

Those interested may earn a BB with me in 2 1/2 years, guaranteed, please pay my business partner, tshadowchaser, on your way out. :lol:
Oh, and I'm also a member of the same sokeship council as Xue Sheng, who will gladly take any of your questions. :boing2:

Just kidding. It really takes 2 3/4 years.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, please henceforth address me as Herr Doctor, Grandmaster, and Founder of kickmobuttgunfu. :lool:

Those interested may earn a BB with me in 2 1/2 years, guaranteed, please pay my business partner, tshadowchaser, on your way out. :lol:
Oh, and I'm also a member of the same sokeship council as Xue Sheng, who will gladly take any of your questions. :boing2:

Just kidding. It really takes 2 3/4 years.

:EG: :mst: Questions anyone :armed::matsunaga

 

[Drac]

:EG: :mst: Questions anyone :armed::matsunaga

I thought your discipline was Strik-a-Treefu...