Is JKD a philosophy that can be applied independently?

[Xue Sheng120 38]

Can you elaborate on why these are not JKD?

Didn’t come from Bruce Lee or one of his associated teachers
Same reason Changquan is not kyokushin karate or uechi ryu karate. Same reason mixing various arts with Xingyiquan is not Yiquan same reason training taijiquan Bagua and Xingyiquan doesn’t make it Sun style Taijiquan . Where and who they come from matters

Sanda/sanshou is a mixture of style, it is not JKD
Yiquan is a mixture of styles and it is not JKD
Sun Taijiquan is a mixture of styles it is not JKD
Same can be said for Krav Maga… not JKD

Want to mix styles, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it JKD, but someone wanting to say mixing random styles is JKD always leaves me wondering why.

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

Jeet Kune Do philosophy emphasizes efficiency, directness, and, most importantly, "using no way as way" by remaining formless and adaptable

• "Be Water": A guiding metaphor for adaptability, fluidity, and non-resistance, allowing a practitioner to flow with, rather than against, an opponent.
• Economy of Motion: Prioritizing the simplest, most direct, and fastest movements to achieve maximum results with minimum effort.
• No Limitation as Limitation: Avoiding rigid, traditional, or dogmatic techniques to maintain freedom of expression and personal growth.
• Interception: The core technique of stopping an opponent's attack before it happens, or intercepting their intent rather than just reacting to their movement.
• Self-Cultivation: Using martial arts as a path to honest self-expression and understanding oneself, which translates to personal development in daily life.

These concepts are common to many TMA - there is nothing magical about JKD, except when done by Bruce Lee.

 

[ap Oweyn29]

skribs, having read this lot, what's your current thinking? Just for the sake of discussion that is. But I'm genuinely interested how your thinking about this now.

 

[skribs127 148]

skribs, having read this lot, what's your current thinking? Just for the sake of discussion that is. But I'm genuinely interested how your thinking about this now.

I'll be honest, I feel like there are a lot of words in this thread being used to say basically nothing. (Which happens a lot on this forum). It's something that everyone has a different definition of what it is. So how do we decide what it is or isn't if we all have a different idea on what it even is?

It's the same situation as when folks will argue over minutia. Like whether a gym is a fraud because the warmups are too short or too long.

• "If you spend more than 5 minutes on warm-ups, your gym doesn't have enough technique to fill a class, so you're not getting your money's worth."
• "If your gym spends less than 15 minutes on warm-ups, they don't care about player safety, and you're going to get hurt if you don't leave right now!"

I don't really feel like there's been anything really definitive said, which is why I'm not saying anything definitive in return.

 

[drop bear127 3]

I'll be honest, I feel like there are a lot of words in this thread being used to say basically nothing. (Which happens a lot on this forum). It's something that everyone has a different definition of what it is. So how do we decide what it is or isn't if we all have a different idea on what it even is?

It's the same situation as when folks will argue over minutia. Like whether a gym is a fraud because the warmups are too short or too long.

• "If you spend more than 5 minutes on warm-ups, your gym doesn't have enough technique to fill a class, so you're not getting your money's worth."
• "If your gym spends less than 15 minutes on warm-ups, they don't care about player safety, and you're going to get hurt if you don't leave right now!"

I don't really feel like there's been anything really definitive said, which is why I'm not saying anything definitive in return.

You other option is to understand your style starts and finishes at an imaginary line that exists completely in your head.

So what striking exists in BJJ or what ground work exists in TKD. is up to you.

Wing chun is kind of doing this now that they are moving towards being influenced by combat sports. They just see all these juicy techniques that work good. And say screw it. I want to be doing that. So its kung fu now.

 

[ap Oweyn29]

I'll be honest, I feel like there are a lot of words in this thread being used to say basically nothing. (Which happens a lot on this forum). It's something that everyone has a different definition of what it is. So how do we decide what it is or isn't if we all have a different idea on what it even is?

It's the same situation as when folks will argue over minutia. Like whether a gym is a fraud because the warmups are too short or too long.

• "If you spend more than 5 minutes on warm-ups, your gym doesn't have enough technique to fill a class, so you're not getting your money's worth."
• "If your gym spends less than 15 minutes on warm-ups, they don't care about player safety, and you're going to get hurt if you don't leave right now!"

I don't really feel like there's been anything really definitive said, which is why I'm not saying anything definitive in return.

Huh. Okay. I doubt you'll ever get a definitive on JKD, I'm afraid.

 

[Flying Crane]

Does anyone hold a copyright or register on the term Jeet Kune Do or JKD? Like Bruce Lee’s estate? If so, there is an answer. You can’t call what you do by those terms without risking legal troubles.

That aside, those terms are widely recognized to be connected to Bruce Lee and his martial training and teaching. If you have no connection to him, through your teachers or their teachers, etc., never had any instruction by a teacher of BL’s methods or concepts, why would you want to use that term to describe what you do? That doesn’t make sense.

What you call your own path is up to you, in the end. But if you use that term in the context of your school, in teaching others, I predict that a lot of people will have certain expectations based on the name, that you will fail to meet. They will find that misleading and perhaps even deliberately deceptive. If you use this term in the context of your school, it will damage your school and your reputation.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

Does anyone hold a copyright or register on the term Jeet Kune Do or JKD? Like Bruce Lee’s estate? If so, there is an answer. You can’t call what you do by those terms without risking legal troubles.

That aside, those terms are widely recognized to be connected to Bruce Lee and his martial training and teaching. If you have no connection to him, through your teachers or their teachers, etc., never had any instruction by a teacher of BL’s methods or concepts, why would you want to use that term to describe what you do? That doesn’t make sense.

What you call your own path is up to you, in the end. But if you use that term in the context of your school, in teaching others, I predict that a lot of people will have certain expectations based on the name, that you will fail to meet. They will find that misleading and perhaps even deliberately deceptive. If you use this term in the context of your school, it will damage your school and your reputation.

Shannon Lee, daughter of Bruce Lee, actively controls and preserves the legacy of Jeet Kune Do (JKD) as CEO of the Bruce Lee Family Companies and chair of the Bruce Lee Foundation. She manages the intellectual property, curates the philosophy through initiatives like readings of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, and emphasizes JKD as a personal, adaptable way of life rather than a rigid, fixed style. (From AI)

I do know that Shannon Lee did have some issues with JKD related things when she took over, but I do not know how far she took it

 

[HighKick]

I feel like there are a lot of words in this thread being used to say basically nothing. (Which happens a lot on this forum).

This is a universal truth, so make sure you are also looking in the mirror.

 

[ap Oweyn29]

I'll be honest, I feel like there are a lot of words in this thread being used to say basically nothing. (Which happens a lot on this forum). It's something that everyone has a different definition of what it is. So how do we decide what it is or isn't if we all have a different idea on what it even is?

It's the same situation as when folks will argue over minutia. Like whether a gym is a fraud because the warmups are too short or too long.

• "If you spend more than 5 minutes on warm-ups, your gym doesn't have enough technique to fill a class, so you're not getting your money's worth."
• "If your gym spends less than 15 minutes on warm-ups, they don't care about player safety, and you're going to get hurt if you don't leave right now!"

I don't really feel like there's been anything really definitive said, which is why I'm not saying anything definitive in return.

I need to think about this a little myself. Now that I have, I wonder whether what you got here isn't so much "basically saying nothing" as it is not what you wanted to hear. No disrespect intended, but you asked a question about a highly contested topic on a discussion forum. You were always going to get "lots of words." But only because you asked.

In retrospect, Flying Crane has cut very directly to what I was thinking as well. Anyone wanting to attend a JKD school isn't just looking for someone who's following that philosophy as they understand it. They're looking for (and presumably paying for) a direct connection to a lineage.

 

[skribs127 148]

I need to think about this a little myself. Now that I have, I wonder whether what you got here isn't so much "basically saying nothing" as it is not what you wanted to hear. No disrespect intended, but you asked a question about a highly contested topic on a discussion forum. You were always going to get "lots of words." But only because you asked.

In retrospect, Flying Crane has cut very directly to what I was thinking as well. Anyone wanting to attend a JKD school isn't just looking for someone who's following that philosophy as they understand it. They're looking for (and presumably paying for) a direct connection to a lineage.

When people give different answers, it can't be that I didn't hear the one I was looking for. Because if I get 5 different answers, at least 4 of them aren't going to be the one I'm looking for.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

So I am guessing what you are looking for is someone to say, sure, you cam make anything you want JKD..... all you need is to slam together a few different style and Voilà you can now say you are doing JKD.....being more than a little deceitful IMO, but you can say what you want.... but again... I am back to why? If it is that important go train it, if no school near by, although I am not a fan of this, go train online.... or is it just so someone can slap JKD on the front of their school so they can get more students and make more money. Then it becomes just like the scores of Krav Maga schools out there that are some other art the teacher spent a weeked at a Krav Maga training camp and got certified.... still not Krav Maga though. I have see several "Kung Fu" schools that are teaching the style they call "Kung Fu". Even though no such style exists. Hey, what the heck, want to be a JKD school, go for it, the only person who might care is Shannon Lee, and as long as she doesn't see it, your good to go.

Or why not cal lit MMA and be done with it, why would it need to be JKD?

Whatever, have a nice day

​

 

[Flying Crane]

When people give different answers, it can't be that I didn't hear the one I was looking for. Because if I get 5 different answers, at least 4 of them aren't going to be the one I'm looking for.

If you know the answer you are looking for, do you need for someone to actually say it? If you know what you want the answer to be, just go with that answer.

If nobody is giving you the answer you want, there might be a reason. It might be worth considering the answers you are getting, and not write them off as “a lot of words used to say basically nothing.” Maybe there is something you need to learn in there.

 

[skribs127 148]

So I am guessing what you are looking for is someone to say, sure, you cam make anything you want JKD

I'm looking for someone to say definitively what makes something JKD or not.

Some people have said a lot of words without accomplishing the ask. Other people have accomplished the ask, but contradicted each other, making it difficult for me to really know what the answer is.

I really don't care whether the answer is that I can claim JKD or that I can't. I care why the answer is the one that it is. And I've not gotten a definitive answer as to what would make something JKD or not.

Now everyone's getting defensive because their answer was inadequate. And instead of trying to do one of the following:

• If they didn't really accomplish the task of explaining what makes something JKD or not, then to do a better job explaining it.
• If they were lost in the shuffle of other answers, providing the logic or evidence to explain why theirs is correct and the others incorrect.

Instead, everyone's just targeting me for not accepting non-answers and for wanting consistency in the answers.

If you were to ask what color car to get, and your answers were red, white, seven, black, and Thomas...would you not want to go back for more information? I'm pretty sure you'd just completely reject the answers of seven and Thomas (because those aren't even colors), but you'd want to know why someone would say red, black, or white.

If I were to say black cars are the best, and you were to ask me to justify why it's better than red or white, I could either say:

• You just want to get a red car, so you're not even going to listen to me, or...
• Red cards tend to get pulled over more, and white cars show dirt easier.

The second one continues the discussion and gives a deeper understanding into what's being said. That's what I'm hoping to get here. The first one either proves you don't really have an answer or you don't have the communication skills to properly explain it. And instead of admitting either of those, it's easier just to blame me for not accepting slop.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm looking for someone to say definitively what makes something JKD or not.

Some people have said a lot of words without accomplishing the ask. Other people have accomplished the ask, but contradicted each other, making it difficult for me to really know what the answer is.

I really don't care whether the answer is that I can claim JKD or that I can't. I care why the answer is the one that it is. And I've not gotten a definitive answer as to what would make something JKD or not.

Now everyone's getting defensive because their answer was inadequate. And instead of trying to do one of the following:

• If they didn't really accomplish the task of explaining what makes something JKD or not, then to do a better job explaining it.
• If they were lost in the shuffle of other answers, providing the logic or evidence to explain why theirs is correct and the others incorrect.

Instead, everyone's just targeting me for not accepting non-answers and for wanting consistency in the answers.

If you were to ask what color car to get, and your answers were red, white, seven, black, and Thomas...would you not want to go back for more information? I'm pretty sure you'd just completely reject the answers of seven and Thomas (because those aren't even colors), but you'd want to know why someone would say red, black, or white.

If I were to say black cars are the best, and you were to ask me to justify why it's better than red or white, I could either say:

• You just want to get a red car, so you're not even going to listen to me, or...
• Red cards tend to get pulled over more, and white cars show dirt easier.

The second one continues the discussion and gives a deeper understanding into what's being said. That's what I'm hoping to get here. The first one either proves you don't really have an answer or you don't have the communication skills to properly explain it. And instead of admitting either of those, it's easier just to blame me for not accepting slop.

Go back and read my post, #27.

Shannon Lee hold rights to the name Jeet Kune Do (JKD) as the executor of her father’s estate. You can’t use the name without her permission.

Jeet Kune do is connected to Bruce Lee, his training and his teaching. If you have not received training from Bruce Lee or from an instructor in his downstream lineage, you are not doing JKD.

It’s pretty simple.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

I'm looking for someone to say definitively what makes something JKD or not.

You got a definitive answer awhile ago.... like all styles, it goes back to the founder...so it come from Bruce Lee, to say Dan Inosanto, to one of his teacher so you....bingo JKD. But it appars that was not what yuo wanted to hread

Some people have said a lot of words without accomplishing the ask. Other people have accomplished the ask, but contradicted each other, making it difficult for me to really know what the answer is.

OK, I will go back to my example with just one style

Sun style that comes from Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan

Xingyiquan

Dai Wenxiong (Xinyiquan) > Li Luening(Hebei Xingyiquan) > Guo Yunshen(Hebei Xingyiquan > Sun Lutang (Hebei Xingyiquan to Sun Xingyiquan)

Baguazhang

Dong Haichuan (Baguazhang)> Cheng Tinghua (Cheng Baguazhang) > Sun Lutang (Cheng to Sun Baguazhang)

Here is where it get sa bit more complicated

Taijiquan

Chen Qingping (Zhaobao and Chen) > Wu Yuxiang (Wu Hao style founder) Li Yiyu (Wu Hao Style) Hao Weizhen (Likely Wu Hao style) > SunLutang... But this is not where you get Sun stle Taijiquan

Sun Lutang took his Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan and combine them to get to Sun Taijiquan.

Now I have trained Xingyiquan, BAguazhaang and 4 of the five style of Taijiquan (to varying degrees) I have also come up with my own style of taijiquan.... but that does not make it Sun style taijquan, even though my style has a little Sun style in it. Sun style taijiquan came from the practice ana mind of Sun Lutang

Jeet Kune Do is the same, it all goes back to what Bruce Lee learned and what he trained, what he studies and how he trained.... then to his students and then to their students. So what makes it JKD is basically lineage that goes back to the founder. However the irony here is that I don't think he ever really wanted there to be a set style called Jeet Kune Do

Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back. - Bruce Lee

Although I am happy there are those that do. I enjoyed what little I trained of it

I really don't care whether the answer is that I can claim JKD or that I can't. I care why the answer is the one that it is. And I've not gotten a definitive answer as to what would make something JKD or not.

again I put forth you got a definitive answer several post ago "Starts and ends with Bruce Lee"

Now everyone's getting defensive because their answer was inadequate. And instead of trying to do one of the following:

• If they didn't really accomplish the task of explaining what makes something JKD or not, then to do a better job explaining it.
• If they were lost in the shuffle of other answers, providing the logic or evidence to explain why theirs is correct and the others incorrect.

I think you missed the point and again, I believe you had an answer in mind before you posted this...just none you got agreed with what you thought

Instead, everyone's just targeting me for not accepting non-answers and for wanting consistency in the answers.

well it sure looks like that to me, sorry if you have a problem with what i see as truth form my prespective

If you were to ask what color car to get, and your answers were red, white, seven, black, and Thomas...would you not want to go back for more information? I'm pretty sure you'd just completely reject the answers of seven and Thomas (because those aren't even colors), but you'd want to know why someone would say red, black, or white.

If I were to say black cars are the best, and you were to ask me to justify why it's better than red or white, I could either say:

• You just want to get a red car, so you're not even going to listen to me, or...
• Red cards tend to get pulled over more, and white cars show dirt easier.

Yup...Starts and ends with Bruce Lee...Lineage

The second one continues the discussion and gives a deeper understanding into what's being said. That's what I'm hoping to get here. The first one either proves you don't really have an answer or you don't have the communication skills to properly explain it. And instead of admitting either of those, it's easier just to blame me for not accepting slop.

How much deeper do you want...it is not all that complicated.... the philosophy and trained of Bruce Lee look him to Jun Fan Kungfu and then to Jeet Kune Do and he taught some people and they taught some people and so on....

If you want to know HOW Bruce Lee got to Jeet Kune Do that is a different discussion and there are several books out there that discuss it

 

[wab251]

I'm looking for someone to say definitively what makes something JKD or not.

From my understanding.... the folks best qualified to define what makes something JKD or not, like the people who trained with Bruce and with his first students... do not even agree on what defines JKD. They hold different definitions and argue amongst themselves over what makes something JKD or not. If they can't come to a consensus, there is not much more we can do here, aside from present the different ideas.... and as you point out, they are contradictory.

As a side question.... your primary art is Korean, your next art is Brazilian with heavy Japanese influence or at least origin..... Why are you trying to fit that collection into a Chinese based concept? Especially when you have no experience in Chinese arts?

There is value in teaching TDK. There is value in teaching BJJ. There is value in your mix of the 2. Why not teach one, with influences from the other? Skribs - Kwon - Jujitsu.... SKJ. There would be value there as well.

If you are really interested in JKD.... the best way to learn about it.... is to train it. The same as you did with TKD and BJJ.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

. Why are you trying to fit that collection into a Chinese based concept? Especially when you have no experience in Chinese arts?

You may have hit on something there. Having no background in the Chinese concepts may make it difficult to fit into what yuo already understand from ones non-CMA background. And although JKD is avtually considered America, it came from a Chinese guy with those concepts

And yes there is a bit of a conflict between JKD being exactly what Bruce Lee taught and the JKD is based on the Philosophy of Bruce Lee. But I did discover something recently that surprised me. Dan Inosanto is on the Philosophical side of the JKD issue. However he teaches all his new students exactly what Bruce Lee taught first, then goes in to the philosophical approach. Or at least that is the understanding I got form an article I read a couple years ago from Guru Dan.

Edit: I was shown some Junfan Kungfu once, Bruce Lee's first tyle. I labeled it "Wing Chun on Steroids"

 

[ap Oweyn29]

I agree with what's been said. JKD was created as a concept and coined as a term within living memory. Tracing back to its founder isn't difficult. Anyone teaching today is going to be within six degrees of Kevin Bacon (read: Bruce Lee). I wouldn't question whether a student of Ted Wong was practicing JKD, even though I followed Guro Dan's line instead. Both have a clear and direct line to the style's founder. If I were interested specifically in studying JKD, I'd be looking for that line. Simple.

 

[HighKick]

When people give different answers, it can't be that I didn't hear the one I was looking for. Because if I get 5 different answers, at least 4 of them aren't going to be the one I'm looking for.

This is wrong thinking right out of the gate. You are starting with information bias because you say "the one I'm looking for'.