kukiwon certification

[DMcHenry]

Thank you KarateMom. I don’t want this to sound bad or negative, but I’m just not interested in getting more rank. To me it would just be spending money to get a piece of paper. I’m basically semi-retired, only teaching private lessons, teaching at seminars or helping other instructors. I have plenty of certs, and don’t need/want any stripes on my belt (I’ve never had a belt with stripes on it anyway). Maybe if I were running a commercial dojang it could be more of a marketing tool. It’s not that I’m not motivated, I love to learn and am taking an Modern Arnis class right now and if I had the money would take up Haidong gumdo as I was offered to get into a ‘Master’s program’ with that. I teach for the fun of it now and it keeps me involved in martial arts and helping others.

Take care,
Mac

 

[puunui]

I don’t want this to sound bad or negative, but I’m just not interested in getting more rank.

I can remember a time when you were interested in obtaining more Kukkiwon rank.

 

[d1jinx]

I still say, at the end of the day, Your skills, mentality and the way you carry yourself are your TRUE certification... the peice of paper is... well.... a piece of paper.

 

[andyjeffries]

How many of you have the kukiwon certification (black belt)? I don't need to be a black belt certificaed by KKW to teach or even open a dojang I guess, and I know that some guys here are just certificated by his/her own dojang. It's so crucial to be kuki certified?

I do have a Kukkiwon certificate (and waiting for my new one to arrive) and I consider it fairly essential. However, bear in mind my view on what Taekwondo means (another thread) and where I am the Kukkiwon is standard and the most common Taekwondo I discuss.

I wouldn't have a problem accepting a student without a Kukkiwon certificate, but I would try to help them get promoted through the Kukkiwon.

 

[DMcHenry]

(response to Glenn)

Yes sir, as you and several others were encouraging me to get KKW certified, which I did. That was a few years back when I was working with several TKD instructors switching over into TSD and KKW certification was important to them. As I work with both TKD & TSD students, it has helped (in their view) having TKD ranking. I had even had several students from an ATA offshoot school about to test for Black Belt in their system drop it and start over at white belt with me. So it did help working with my TKD students, and helps me now that I’m teaching at a TKD dojang once a week.

At one time I did want to achieve at least a 4th Dan KKW so I would be able to register my own students seeking KKW certs, and yes you were encouraging me and offering to help, which was appreciated. I just never finished that journey. It also was a bit de-motivating having the signature on it from one who had been sent to prison for embezzlement etc. I couldn’t see myself sending more money to Korea for that.

Regards,
Mac

 

[puunui]

It also was a bit de-motivating having the signature on it from one who had been sent to prison for embezzlement etc. I couldn’t see myself sending more money to Korea for that.

We discussed this before. The short of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was only doing what the Korean government told him to do, which was to build a bridge to North Korea. Part of this involved giving North Korea monies to develop their country's sports programs, money which was given to Dr. Kim by the Korean government. Dr. Kim's mistake was accepting an appointed position in the General Assembly to fill a vacant seat. The General Assembly is what we would call in the United States our Congress. When a new President was elected, from a different political party from Dr. Kim, that new party got upset and turned on Dr. Kim and persecuted him. Dr. Kim did not fight the charges, accepted all responsibility, and resigned from all of his positions, including his IOC seat. He was later released, and pardoned. The president who initiated the charges against Dr. Kim recently killed himself by jumping off a mountain top in Korea, because his family was being accused of taking bribes and other alleged misdeeds while he was President.

The general consensus today is that Dr. Kim did not do anything wrong, except perhaps in the eyes of those who do not know the whole story and/or feel the need to make recriminatory comments to at least partially blame others for a situation of their own making (I.e., failure to complete intended goal of obtaining Kukkiwon 4th Dan, for example).

Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.

We discussed this before. The short of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was only doing what the Korean government told him to do, which was to build a bridge to North Korea. Part of this involved giving North Korea monies to develop their country's sports programs, money which was given to Dr. Kim by the Korean government. Dr. Kim's mistake was accepting an appointed position in the General Assembly to fill a vacant seat. The General Assembly is what we would call in the United States our Congress. When a new President was elected, from a different political party from Dr. Kim, that new party got upset and turned on Dr. Kim and persecuted him. Dr. Kim did not fight the charges, accepted all responsibility, and resigned from all of his positions, including his IOC seat. He was later released, and pardoned. The president who initiated the charges against Dr. Kim recently killed himself by jumping off a mountain top in Korea, because his family was being accused of taking bribes and other alleged misdeeds while he was President.

The general consensus today is that Dr. Kim did not do anything wrong, except perhaps in the eyes of those who do not know the whole story and/or feel the need to make recriminatory comments to at least partially blame others for a situation of their own making (I.e., failure to complete intended goal of obtaining Kukkiwon 4th Dan, for example).

Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.

I bolded, re-quoted & repeated this again: Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.

I concur with this sentiment. We do & Korea does owe a great debt of gratitude to this great man that is so gifted, talented & worked so hard for Korea & TKD. This to me is not something that can be honestly refuted.
However, we must be clear that Dr Kim did indeed break the law in south Korea, for which he was arrested, convicted & served time for. Now what he did may have been at the behest of the Korean govt & may have even had noble aims, but it was against the law to funnel money under the table in the democratic ROK. That is the plain & simple truth. The reason it was done under the table was because it was in fact against the law! In the USA under the Reagan administration similar types of transgressions were done when they funneled money to the Contras & tied it into an elaborate scheme to free hostages, in what some would say was to pay for their release.
So the fact that it was for the ROK govt, does not make it right or legal, even if some think it was the right thing to do. Pardons are also political as well. Now we do remember the outrage that Gen Choi caused when he went to the north when it was against the ROK law for south Koreans to do that, even though he was now a Canadian citizen, going there with a Canadian passport. The law is the law. as to the tragic suicide by the former ROK president, yes that is another example of the corruption that has plagued Korea for so long. This however should not be seen as an excuse for others poor or illegal behavior, as his corruption was on different matters.
You are of course giving another fine example of how the nasty Korean politics have played a part in TKD's history & the context of the times that its development took place in, all important factors to know & consider when trying to sort through TKD confusing & complex history!

Now as a question for clarification: Was Dr Kim's pardon a full & complete pardon?

Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us. (Repeated yet again, as I do not want to have anyone think my reply was a personal attack in any way, shape or form on the pivotal figure that was so important for TKD & Korea)

 

[puunui]

Now as a question for clarification: Was Dr Kim's pardon a full & complete pardon?

You go do your google search and you tell me. This discussion that we have been having, from my perspective, has been one sided. I provide all the facts, and you sit back and provide your commentary on how all of the facts I provide supports General Choi in one way or another, without providing any additional facts outside of what you may have read in General Choi's autobiography. I'm tired of that. But I do wish to thank you, because how I feel dealing with you is probably how the pioneers felt, dealing with General Choi. Now I truly understand, on another level, and from a different perspective, how the pioneers viewed things.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You go do your google search and you tell me. This discussion that we have been having, from my perspective, has been one sided. I provide all the facts, and you sit back and provide your commentary on how all of the facts I provide supports General Choi in one way or another, without providing any additional facts outside of what you may have read in General Choi's autobiography. I'm tired of that. But I do wish to thank you, because how I feel dealing with you is probably how the pioneers felt, dealing with General Choi. Now I truly understand, on another level, and from a different perspective, how the pioneers viewed things.

I think you make valuable contributions by sharing what some pioneers told you. However relaying info, no matter how accurate your transmission is, may not be factual or facts, unless the underlying info that you transmit are facts or factual in nature.
(This is not to be interpreted as any attack that what you said or shared is not truthful, as I do believe that you are doing a great service, but independent verification is usually required to make something factual)

 

[mango.man]

We discussed this before. The short of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was only doing what the Korean government told him to do.

And the Nazi army were only following instructions from government officials too.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I dont have a kukki cert and that doesnt worry me in the slightest. I can fully understand why it is important for some, especially if olympic sparring is your go. But for me, I am yet to hear of one reason why it would benefit me. If for some reason my club ceased to exist (which wont ever happen anyway), I would be more likely to go and find a hapkido club or ITF club to train at as they seem more similar to what I currently do. Because I dont know the taegeks or spar WTF style I would not head in the kukki direction anyway.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by puunui
We discussed this before. The short of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was only doing what the Korean government told him to do.

And the Nazi army were only following instructions from government officials too.

While your point is true, I would like to say that what the Nazis did under Hitler was really unprecedented in history in depth & brutality. To be clear the south Korean govt was not like this & Dr Kim was not asked to do anything remotely similar to the atrocities of Hitler & the Nazi govt.

When we look at the all important history we will see that the south Korean govt broke their own laws that they had in place, often for dealing with the north & managing the threat from them. It is probably more analogous to the example of how Gen Choi broke their laws when he 1st went to the north, even though he had a Canadian passport & they could not touch him as he was now Canadian. But it still violated their laws. Another possibly more fitting example that history gives us is the US govt doing this "under the radar" or "under the table", which is a softer way of saying against the law, was when they dealt with arms & drugs as a covert way of dealing with terrorists & other anti-American interests like the Reagan administration did, (which I am sure most do or have done things like that). While some may argue & they do, that it may have been the right thing to do & the cause was a noble one & not a profit motivated criminal one, it was still against the law, hence the need to "go under the radar or table" in order to circumvent the laws, which is exactly what they did. They broke the law.

Pardons are actions taken by executives that are empowered to do same. Depending on the laws broken & the place where the law was broken, that executive may be a governor or president, etc. Pardons are in place as a vehicle to rectify injustices, as no justice system is completely perfect. However pardons are also political. When a pardon is granted, the motivation for said pardon is open to interpretation & as such also becomes a matter of debate.

Like Gen Choi, Dr Kim used TKD as a political tool. So have the govts of both Koreas. There is no doubt that the "nasty Korean politics" have played a role in the history of TKD & the context of the times its development took place in. Like all politics, it really often depends on where you stand in the mix, that often influences or even dictates one's response or take on what happened & why.

What happened to Dr Kim was emblematic of what often happened to Gen Choi all throughout his lifetime career in promoting TKD both in Korea & around the world. There are many that simply resented any use of TKD in politics & using TKD as a political tool, even though some or many of the motives may have been noble. These feelings & perceptions will of course always be shaped by ones depth of knowledge, what side of the aisle or political divide they are on, how political or partisan they themselves are & how open their minds are to learn more, especially when it is complex & often boring, innate & esoteric details that I am sure no one ever joined TKD for.

What we can & should do is learn more, keep an open mind & give credit to people who deserve it, as it was their hard work that gave such a wonderful & positive activity to so many around the world. In essence they often made people's lives better, be it by learning to protect oneself, losing weight, winning competitions, building character & friendships etc. This is the way of the martial arts. While we are all less than perfect, (by definition we all are) we all deserve thanks & credit for the good that we all do. As the powers to be have their powers fade over time, (nasty Korean politics), which is inevitable, the motivations to slur & abilities to embellish are softened & people are more free & able to put forth more information. This is what is happening now & will continue to occur over the passage of time, especially when freedom of speech, of the press expands & more independent people, like historians are able to record minus the pressures & restrictions that were previously in place. This is true through out history with the recording of history. It is no different with TKD.

What we can & should do as martial artists, is to both remain open minded & refrain from both impolite discourse & the my dad is better than your dad.

 

[puunui]

I dont have a kukki cert and that doesnt worry me in the slightest. I can fully understand why it is important for some, especially if olympic sparring is your go. But for me, I am yet to hear of one reason why it would benefit me. If for some reason my club ceased to exist (which wont ever happen anyway), I would be more likely to go and find a hapkido club or ITF club to train at as they seem more similar to what I currently do. Because I dont know the taegeks or spar WTF style I would not head in the kukki direction anyway.

Is your teacher GM RHEE Chong Chul? If so, he might have been one of those that took Kukkiwon certification, but never made it to the third step to integrate his curriculum. If anything, he may have harbored hostility and resentment towards the Kukkiwon and WTF, for whatever reason, which apparently got passed down to his students.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Quote:
While your point is true, I would like to say that what the Nazis did under Hitler was really unprecedented in history in depth & brutality.

This is not exactly true... all one need do is consider the slaughter of Jews by Lenin following the Russian Revolution of 1917, or the millions executed by Stalin during the purge that took place during the 1930's. I guess you can ignore what Mao did, since that took place after WWII.

 

[sungjado]

Go back to the subject of this discourse and to the question first asked:
I hold a 5th Dan KKW and a 8th Dan Independent. I believe it is essential to have the KKW Dan certification if you have a competitive spirit and wish to compete in Olympic style TKD.
But there are quite a few old-style TKD players who just train to train and for the warrior spirit.
The main problem is that so many Grandmasters and Masters try to force their students to pay very large sums of money for the coveted KKW Dan rank. Most of these GM & M are just trying to get rich quick and do not instill discipline in their training, which leads to poorly developed black belts who succeed at scalping their students just like their instructor did to them.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Is your teacher GM RHEE Chong Chul? If so, he might have been one of those that took Kukkiwon certification, but never made it to the third step to integrate his curriculum. If anything, he may have harbored hostility and resentment towards the Kukkiwon and WTF, for whatever reason, which apparently got passed down to his students.

No, I am not with rhee tkd. They are huge in australasia though, and have clubs all over the place and are very highly regarded and their students are of a high standard. His org just continues to grow, I cant drive 10 minutes in any direction without passing a rhee tkd sign. I have seen his students spar and was pretty sure they had nothing to do with kukki but wasnt sure.

 

[puunui]

No, I am not with rhee tkd. They are huge in australasia though, and have clubs all over the place and are very highly regarded and their students are of a high standard. His org just continues to grow, I cant drive 10 minutes in any direction without passing a rhee tkd sign. I have seen his students spar and was pretty sure they had nothing to do with kukki but wasnt sure.

I would ask you who your teacher is but you would have said already. So I guess we can let it remain the deep dark secret....

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I dont mention who my GM is only because I dont want anything I say being seen as a representation of him or his beliefs. He speaks very little english, does not jump on internet forums and he may not even appreciate the fact Im on here giving opinions that could be seen as representing his club. I hope you understand, its not that Im trying to be secretive or anything. I can say that he was one of the first GM's to bring tkd to australia and is very highly regarded in tkd circles, although has had nothing to do with the korean side of things since before I started training under him which was about 5 years ago. From what I understand, he ceased his involvement with the kukkiabout 15 years ago and after just reading about Rhee and his background they seem extremely similar, and probably know each other I would imagine.

 

[Twin Fist]

lord grant me the strength to not post in this topic........

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Quote: While your point is true, I would like to say that what the Nazis did under Hitler was really unprecedented in history in depth & brutality.

This is not exactly true... all one need do is consider the slaughter of Jews by Lenin following the Russian Revolution of 1917, or the millions executed by Stalin during the purge that took place during the 1930's. I guess you can ignore what Mao did, since that took place after WWII.

Why you dirty dog you are right! LOL!
I sit corrected. I was thinking more of what Hitler did led to the 2nd World War, which was so super bad.
Thank you for correcting me & I guess that sadly there are far to many examples of atrocities of such a mass extent, that I would imagine that it is too hard to even want to remember or reflect on such real human devastation that was so unnecessary.