Kovar's Karate Studios

[Jade Tigress]

Sorry to sound rude but why do people post stuff like this? You drove by the damn place….why didn’t you go in and check it out instead of asking a bunch of folks on the internet?

Well...there are alot of talented and knowledgeable martial artists on the board who may have insight on the organization in question that cannot be obtained by simply walking in the door. If they're unscrupulous she won't get straight answers anyway and to try and research through the internet on something as objective as whether someone thinks somethings good or not doesn't help much either. So, when you want the real scoop you ask people you trust.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Sorry to sound rude but why do people post stuff like this? You drove by the damn place….why didn’t you go in and check it out instead of asking a bunch of folks on the internet?

Going into a studio to check it out is certainly a reasonable way to get a feel for a place, but you may not get all the information you need to make an informed decision about a school or an instructor's credentials that way alone. Since there is no governing body regulating who can, and who can not, open a Martial Arts studio, I see nothing wrong in seeking a little information before stepping foot in a school. In addition, sometimes contracts must be signed from the start, and asking around on the internet is one way to get additional information about a school, or an instructor, before a long term commitment is made and regretfully can not be broken. There are many people who post on Martial Talk who have opinions that I've come to trust. Should one of them have positive or negative things to share on a school I was interested in it would help me to make my decision. The other thing is, Shodan is a woman and as a member of that species I believe that women need to be more cautious about where they train in this male dominated martial arts world, so as not to be learning from an instructor who behaves inappropriately towards women. So while I agree that a visit to the school would be helpful, Shodan has every right to seek opinions here. At the very least it would not hurt her in her quest. :asian:

 

[TheEdge883]

TheEdge883, a good portion of the demo team members are around that age, a few are older than 16 and some are younger. In my training class, most of us are ALMOST 15 or 16. I think there's maybe one person that's 16. Maybe 2. But most of us are younger than 16. The avereage ratio is about 9-15. I think the youngest in my demo training class is either 8 or 9.

I really don't want you to think we are trying to start fights here. But you have to understand the concern of having an 8 or 9 year old who holds black belt ranks. This board is frequented by several high ranking black belts. I myself have been practicing the martial arts for about 10 years, have only reached the rank of 2nd black. But I can tell you I worked HARD for those 10 years to get where I am. Those who have put in the sweat, blood and tears to get where they are today take pride in those years.
We see schools like yours. 9 year old black belts, second and third degree black belts, some of those have only been studying for 2 or 3 years. Are you going to, with a straight face, tell me that that 9 year old third degree black belt knows more than me, who has lived longer than that kid has practiced, that he knows more about the martial arts, more about fighting than I do. I consider that insulting and downright demeaning, and most others will do the same.
What do you consider a black belt? What should the qualifications for a black belt be, in your own eyes?

 

[TheEdge883]

Too add on to my previous post:

Like I said earlier, I don't doubt the quality of your instructor. Mr. Kovar sounds like a hell of a great fighter and an all around good guy. I'm positive that he has put in the time and effort to get to where he is today. But I have to question his motives. First, why does such a great instructor compromise everything he's learned and been taught like that? Second, why does he think a 9 year old have the same fighting skills and knowledge as he was when he was that rank? It leads me to believe that he has compromised the martial capability of his students just to win a few tournaments.
So we all come back to my original point. Young Kids as black belts + tournament XMA team + high monthly training costs + an inordinate amount of belt tests just to earn a stripe + possible service agreements + pumping out black belts on a conveyor belt + the prospect of opening hundreds of schools in a year ====== Mcdojo.

 

[shesulsa]

While driving home today, I noticed that there is a new studio going in right down the street from my house.

I will give you an example of what I am talking about:



Hey there is a dog in my front yard! Anybody here on MT know anything about it?


Get my point?

Gosh. I wonder if this is what I sound like before I've had my coffee in the morning? Here, RR - have a 5 spot - go get yourself a venti on me, honey.

Shodan, I commend you for asking about a chain of schools before you waltz on in. Walking through the door is half the battle for most dojos - once you're in the door, they can sell you the longest line of B.S. you've ever seen in your life and you'd think you bought a fox boa.

I'm always leery of any chain MA studios. If you decide to go in, bring a barrell of salt and bring your X-ray glasses!

Happy New Year!

 

[Ceicei]

As a Kovar's student, I have to say, what you guys think they are like isn't true. Yes, it's a lot of money to train at Kovar's, but it's worth every cent. I've been training there for 6 amazing years. The instructors are friendly and great at what they do.

I am very glad you are enjoying what you do there. What you've just said are important to the study of martial arts. Instructors make a big difference in whether the training is worthwhile.

People join martial arts for various reasons. If Kovar's suit your needs now and you have improved as a result, then more power to you. I know you are young and that is fine. You will continue to learn more as you progress through life.

People starting young with martial arts and progressing through the years are a joy to watch! The changes with abilities and character are amazing. I have two sons (10 and 12 years old) who enjoy Kenpo and love what they do.

There are various people on MartialTalk with differing opinions and thoughts. Stand strong. Be patient. Listen and keep an open mind. As a junior black belt, you have progressed through the years and earned that. You do know already that the junior black belt is not the same as the senior black belt. If you hang in there and study hard, learning through life and your interactions with people, you will someday receive the senior black belt.

That said, Welcome to MartialTalk!!!

- Ceicei

 

[Michael Billings]

Please, keep the conversation polite, respectful, and watch the sarcasm.

-Michael Billings
-MT S. Moderator-

 

[TheEdge883]

Please, keep the conversation polite, respectful, and watch the sarcasm.

-Michael Billings
-MT S. Moderator-

Sorry about that, I tried not to sound too bad.

 

[Gin-Gin]

Going into a studio to check it out is certainly a reasonable way to get a feel for a place, but you may not get all the information you need to make an informed decision about a school or an instructor's credentials that way alone. Since there is no governing body regulating who can, and who cannot, open a Martial Arts studio, I see nothing wrong in seeking a little information before stepping foot in a school. In addition, sometimes contracts must be signed from the start, and asking around on the internet is one way to get additional information about a school, or an instructor, before a long term commitment is made and regretfully can not be broken. There are many people who post on Martial Talk who have opinions that I've come to trust. Should one of them have positive or negative things to share on a school I was interested in it would help me to make my decision. The other thing is, Shodan is a woman and as a member of that species I believe that women need to be more cautious about where they train in this male dominated martial arts world, so as not to be learning from an instructor who behaves inappropriately towards women. So while I agree that a visit to the school would be helpful, Shodan has every right to seek opinions here. At the very least it would not hurt her in her quest. :asian:

Ditto! My thoughts exactly.

Respectfully,
Gin-Gin :asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

I wish I had known about this site but it didn't exist 8 years ago, I don't believe. There is a wealth of information here from fellow martial artists, the best source to find out about schools before hearing the school propaganda.

I asked the same question to the forum for my daughter for a Kung Fu school. She went into that school as a TKD blackbelt already, asked questions and got suckered into joining for six months and automatic payments. When I questioned a further contract and asked everyone here, she quit that school and got out but not without payments. I wish she had asked me and the forum before hand, just as Shodan had the foresight to do. Sounds like she is pretty smart to do so before entering the doors.TW

 

[Bob Hubbard]

"I wish I had known about this site but it didn't exist 8 years ago, I don't believe."
MT Went live August 2001.

 

[TigerWoman]

So MartialTalk has been on for only 3 1/2 years. Now I don't feel so bad. I wasn't internet savvy then! TW

 

[teamcalisc]

I really don't want you to think we are trying to start fights here. But you have to understand the concern of having an 8 or 9 year old who holds black belt ranks. This board is frequented by several high ranking black belts. I myself have been practicing the martial arts for about 10 years, have only reached the rank of 2nd black. But I can tell you I worked HARD for those 10 years to get where I am. Those who have put in the sweat, blood and tears to get where they are today take pride in those years.
We see schools like yours. 9 year old black belts, second and third degree black belts, some of those have only been studying for 2 or 3 years. Are you going to, with a straight face, tell me that that 9 year old third degree black belt knows more than me, who has lived longer than that kid has practiced, that he knows more about the martial arts, more about fighting than I do. I consider that insulting and downright demeaning, and most others will do the same.
What do you consider a black belt? What should the qualifications for a black belt be, in your own eyes?

I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.

I think what I'm most impressed with is your writing and spelling skills at 14, it shows intelligence and that means a lot to me. Sure, you're not training at a hardcore self-defense school, and some would consider that a McDojo. Me, I'm not happy till there's blood on the mats after a sparring class LOL, but not everyone is willing to train that way, nor do they need to. Keep up the hard work and let us know when you make the demo team.

DarK LorD

 

[Danjo]

I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.

Sorry for the "young Man" earlier. I was not able to tell one wway or the other and so, like many men my age, I made a fairly sexist assumption.

As to the other stuff, well, I do not doubt your sincerity in the least. You sound enthusiastic and determined. My earlier point about basis for comparison has to do with your statements about how good your instructors are etc. How would you know? All you know is what you have experienced and it sounds as if your experience is limited to Kovar's. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy it etc., but rather that there are those of us who have trained in more than one type of setting and have opinions about the type of schools that you describe belonging to. Demo teams, to me, are fluff. They could also be considered a bit dishonest. Here's why: You are a black belt in your school and have been one for two years. However, even though you have trained for over a year trying to get on the demo team, you're still not considered good enough by your instructor. This tells me that your instructor does not want the public at large to see what the skills of the average black belt are from his school. That means that only a very select group of people will be allowed to represent what your school teaches to the public. Why? Why does the instructor not want the public to see the skills of a two year black belt? What is your instructor trying to sell the public on? It is not just your school that does this, so please don't think I'm picking on your's. It's a principle in general from the type of schools you describe. I really do hope that you get to explore other schools and style some time. You might be surprised by what you find out there. Good luck.

 

[teamcalisc]

Sorry for the "young Man" earlier. I was not able to tell one wway or the other and so, like many men my age, I made a fairly sexist assumption.

As to the other stuff, well, I do not doubt your sincerity in the least. You sound enthusiastic and determined. My earlier point about basis for comparison has to do with your statements about how good your instructors are etc. How would you know? All you know is what you have experienced and it sounds as if your experience is limited to Kovar's. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy it etc., but rather that there are those of us who have trained in more than one type of setting and have opinions about the type of schools that you describe belonging to. Demo teams, to me, are fluff. They could also be considered a bit dishonest. Here's why: You are a black belt in your school and have been one for two years. However, even though you have trained for over a year trying to get on the demo team, you're still not considered good enough by your instructor. This tells me that your instructor does not want the public at large to see what the skills of the average black belt are from his school. That means that only a very select group of people will be allowed to represent what your school teaches to the public. Why? Why does the instructor not want the public to see the skills of a two year black belt? What is your instructor trying to sell the public on? It is not just your school that does this, so please don't think I'm picking on your's. It's a principle in general from the type of schools you describe. I really do hope that you get to explore other schools and style some time. You might be surprised by what you find out there. Good luck.

Thank you. I do agree with your statement about the demo team. I kinda find it stupid how they do that but the team I'm training to be on isn't the only demo team we have. Kovar's is creating demo teams for each school. But the Red and Black Attack, the main, tougher one, will always be compromised of the best black belts. Where as the others will be compromised as the average students. The others varry in belts such as blue and red and a few black. They're not as large and probably won't compete as much or perform as much and the Red and Black Attack but they're our more average students.

P.S. Thanx for the comment about my writing skills. My old English teacher from last year would be proud to hear that! Happy New Year everyone!

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

I don't mean to insult you. That isn't my motive. I was surfing around and came upon this board about Kovar's. I feel as a student, it's my responsibility to defend my dojo when I see it being discussed by others who don't attend the school. I just want to tell you guys what it's really like at Kovar's. There are no 3rd degree black belts at Kovar's who are anywhere under 14. I don't think there are any 3rd degree black belts that are 14 or 15. It takes 4+ years at Kovar's to earn your black belt, minimum. It took me about 4 years. But that's also after you go through the actual black belt test. It's not a piece of cake, even for younger students. They work you to your best ability. I do realize that the expansion makes it seem like a "mcdojo," but have any of you actually considered the idea of maybe doing a trial to see for yourself what it's really like there? They have this program where you can get a month of lessons for free. I suggest trying it out.Our young students TRAINING to be on the demo team, are actually pretty good. They aren't great but keep in mind there is no certain amount of time you must train to make it on the Kovar's demo team. The instructor will know when you're ready. I've been training to be on the team for about a year now and I'm still not on. The younger students won't make it on the team any time sooner before the older students becuase they're less ready than we are. No one in my class has made it on the team yet. There is one girl who is almost ready to join the team. She trains extra hard in my class and then trains WITH the demo team. So back to your post, You are better than the younger students. You train harder, you sweat and bleed more than they do, but keep in mind, they have lower limitations than you. They haven't trained as long as you. They're just little kids. I'm trying to explain this to you the best I can but I think it's just our human nature. It's easier to understand a younger person if you are closer to their age. So sorry if youon't understand me.

teamcalisc, i think we all get a little defensive when it comes to the system that we study and whom we study under. i must applaud you for how well you are responding to this thread considering your age. but don't read into this thread too much. you can learn a lot of interesting things not only from your own system but from others as well. i haven't been studying very long in Kenpo either, about 4 yrs or so. i think the part that some people on here are wondering is how it is that your instructors don't tell you guys things like how their system originated. our younger kids know that in our system. we ask them those types of questions while their doing kicking or punching drills. and it's kind of ironic that you refer to the 6-9 yr. olds as the young kids. something that i've learned on this board is that there are people who have been studying different arts for 20 + yrs so to them you and i are still kids to them. and just like a kid, we are still learning. that never stops even when you reach your black belt you should still want to learn as much as you can. because then when people as you explain to me how your system originated, what is the curriculum and what not you can answer them clearly where they can't come back and say that doesn't make sense or "Mcdojo" and what not. that's why learning things like that is important. plus you can always learn from the past and apply it to the present and future. :asian:

-keep up the good spirit, you seem like you really enjoy what you're doing

 

[Michael Billings]

This is in not intended as a slam of Mr. Kovar. I do not know him, nor have I ever seen his students. This is more in the way of a perspective of the progress I see, or I don't see, in the quality of student in today's Kenpo World.

When looking at the big picture there is so much varience from school to school, association to association, instructor to instructor, that it is hard to find a "norm." Are we doing Chinese or Tracy Kenpo, are we doing a more Japanese Kempo system, is it a Kajukembo derivitive system? If it is Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate, what is the curriculum and when did they pull their belt requirements from the IKKA?

4 years may seem like a huge amount of time to a teenager or young adult, but compared to a lifetime of training, it is very little. The fastest I have seen anyone promoted to Black was 4-1/2 years ... and that was one very talented individual with nothing else to do but train all day ... literally. Then it is much more common to see an average 6-8 years to Black. There is and was, a huge volumn of material in the Chinese/Traco model way back then. Now I teach EPAK (and have for the past 18 years), which does not include the Chinese Kenpo years, and I still have only a few adult Black Belts. I have some older teenagers, 16 and 17 year olds, getting close but they have been with me since they were 9 years old.

There can be a Junior's version of the material, which allows kid's to progress faster with less material and maybe get a Junior or Provisional Black Belt, but at some point they have to step up into the realm of adult material. This does not mean there are no teenagers who could be, and are great (especially if Dad owns the school), you can live, eat, and breath Kenpo if given the opportunity ... but 4 years? I would need to know the curriculum, instructor, and assess for myself the quality of instruction and more importantly, the students.

-Michael

 

[teamcalisc]

I do realize that you guys aren't trying to "bash" Mr. Kovar. They have told us about the origination, but with school and everything else, it's a little hard to remember everything like that with science always getting in the way. I also found the cirriculum on the site:

"Kovars Martial Arts incorporates a combination of techniques and principles from a variety of Martial Arts styles including Kenpo Karate, Kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Arnis, Kobudo, Wing Chun and weapons all of which provide our students with a well-balanced, "street smart" self-defense system."

So I hope that answers your question.

 

[The Kai]

Actually not at all, kind of vauge.
Todd