Kenpo Knife and Club Techniques

[Flying Crane]

MJS aka Mike's original question........"So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are"?.........
My opinion on all Kenpo Techniques is that they are not meant to be absolute answers but flexible Ideas,so..."Do they need to be improved upon"(mjs)...well if that means working on them, developing them, using the many variables to expand them,etc., etc. well...yes.

..."or are they fine the way that they are?"(mjs),.. nope, because thats not Kenpo!
Richie.

As far as I am concerned, I think you have hit it right on the head.

 

[MJS]

MJS aka Mike's original question........"So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are"?.........
My opinion on all Kenpo Techniques is that they are not meant to be absolute answers but flexible Ideas,so..."Do they need to be improved upon"(mjs)...well if that means working on them, developing them, using the many variables to expand them,etc., etc. well...yes.

..."or are they fine the way that they are?"(mjs),.. nope, because thats not Kenpo!
Richie.

Thought I'd breath some life back into this thread. So, if I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying that if there is a way/need to expand on them, to do it?

Any other weapon techs. out there we could discuss? I'm still interested in hearing exactly what the tweaking that was mentioned in both this thread and another is.

Mike

 

[Seabrook]

Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.

Let's roll some dicsussion in on this technique.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[parkerkarate]

Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.

Let's roll some dicsussion in on this technique.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Glancing lance, the only problem that I have with it is the knee and scoop kick at the end. I beleive the scoop kick dosent really fit.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.

Let's roll some dicsussion in on this technique.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

The whole thing....it looks pretty in the air and is fun to do but :idunno: ... In the version we do we step off to avoid the knife and strike the radial nerve on their right arm to create pain and possibly disarm the knife. How do any of you look at that first strike? Do you see it as a disarm or as a pain creating distraction? I like that first strike it is painful, but the strike has to hit in the right place to be really effective, so to me you can't always count on that to disarm. It's important to control the knife right away. I'd like to see another option for that first move like a push/pull break to that arm maybe or keep the chop/grab of the wrist and immediately step in with an open palm strike the their left jaw hinge fully extending their head, body and arm (obscuring their vision) so you can control the knife and then follow up with other strikes. I haven't tried these in this context, they are just some thoughts based on some knife work I've seen. I'll have to experiment with it, but I'm interested to see what anyone else thinks a good first move might be here.

 

[parkerkarate]

The whole thing....it looks pretty in the air and is fun to do but :idunno: ... In the version we do we step off to avoid the knife and strike the radial nerve on their right arm to create pain and possibly disarm the knife. How do any of you look at that first strike? Do you see it as a disarm or as a pain creating distraction? I like that first strike it is painful, but the strike has to hit in the right place to be really effective, so to me you can't always count on that to disarm. It's important to control the knife right away. I'd like to see another option for that first move like a push/pull break to that arm maybe or keep the chop/grab of the wrist and immediately step in with an open palm strike the their left jaw hinge fully extending their head, body and arm (obscuring their vision) so you can control the knife and then follow up with other strikes. I haven't tried these in this context, they are just some thoughts based on some knife work I've seen. I'll have to experiment with it, but I'm interested to see what anyone else thinks a good first move might be here.

I do ot see it as either painful. But I am just trying to get to the kick to stop him in his tracks. I have never heard of the heal-palm. The way I learned it was to get a hold of the arm and break. Do a right frot ball kick to the groin. Plant and slice thir right eye with your right hand. Hop off and ckeck his arm. Kick his right leg down with a right thrusting side kick, plant and slice again, left middle knuckle to the temple, check and deliver right inward elbow to the head. Left knee to the spine than as a ckicken kick with the knee deliver a right scoop kick to the groin. If that makes any sense.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I do ot see it as either painful. But I am just trying to get to the kick to stop him in his tracks. I have never heard of the heal-palm. The way I learned it was to get a hold of the arm and break. Do a right frot ball kick to the groin. Plant and slice thir right eye with your right hand. Hop off and ckeck his arm. Kick his right leg down with a right thrusting side kick, plant and slice again, left middle knuckle to the temple, check and deliver right inward elbow to the head. Left knee to the spine than as a ckicken kick with the knee deliver a right scoop kick to the groin. If that makes any sense.

I can visualize your version, and it is somewhat similar to what I learned. We don't have a chicken kick at the end and there are a few other differences. You never heard of the heel palm for this technique because I am posing it as a possible alternative. I am not comfortable trying to get that kick off not knowing whether or not the knife has been secured. I like that you do an arm break and if you use that to disarm I think it's better than just the chop alone the way I originally learned it. I do think it's important to create pain on your very first strike so for people who are proficient at that chop to the radial nerve it's very painful and I've seen it used as a disarm, but I wouldn't move on to the kick until I am sure the knife has been freed or is in my posession. I just think it's too risky.

 

[MJS]

but I wouldn't move on to the kick until I am sure the knife has been freed or is in my posession. I just think it's too risky.

Good point and I agree. IMO, getting control of the weapon hand/arm is going to be first and foremost on my list. I'd rather have control first and then counter, rather than no control, strike and hope that those strikes are going to buy me enough time.

Mike

 

[Blindside]

I don't particularly like Glancing Lance because you don't step offline of a straight attack. We start teach zoning offline at yellow belt, so to encourage linear responses to linear attacks at Black seems a little odd to me. But that is more of a philosophical disagreement than a tech disagreement (if I had to go linear, it would be straight ahead not back, attack the attack.)

I learned it as a right step back to left neutral bow, right outward hooking parry and left palm heel to the elbow. From here it is very simple, if they haven't let go of the knife, don't let go of their arm (time to graft). If they have lost the knife you are still in ideal and the rest of the technique is fine.

Actually you could go two steps more before you have to come back and adjust the tech to deal with the knife again. After you get the palm-heel to the elbow, front thrust kick to the groin/hip (left hand is grabbing the base of the tricep to maintain control of the weapon arm), right eye poke.

Watch for them to change their weapon hand when you let go of the wrist, if they haven't, come back and readdress the right weapon arm.

Lamont

 

[Seabrook]

Glancing lance, the only problem that I have with it is the knee and scoop kick at the end.

Huh? What part are you talking about?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[mj-hi-yah]

if they haven't let go of the knife, don't let go of their arm (time to graft). If they have lost the knife you are still in ideal and the rest of the technique is fine.

Yes! Secure the weapon first.%-}

 

[Blindside]

Huh? What part are you talking about?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

I've seen a version where after the center-knuckle and elbow, you drive a left knee into the spine to drop them forward onto their stomach, and a right scoop kick to the groin.

Lamont

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Huh? What part are you talking about?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

See post #66 in his version there is a chicken kick at the end.

 

[Seabrook]

I do ot see it as either painful. But I am just trying to get to the kick to stop him in his tracks. I have never heard of the heal-palm. The way I learned it was to get a hold of the arm and break. Do a right frot ball kick to the groin. Plant and slice thir right eye with your right hand. Hop off and ckeck his arm. Kick his right leg down with a right thrusting side kick, plant and slice again, left middle knuckle to the temple, check and deliver right inward elbow to the head. Left knee to the spine than as a ckicken kick with the knee deliver a right scoop kick to the groin. If that makes any sense.

Oh, now I see where you are discussing the move. I end the technique after the elbow to the head.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[pete]

Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.
Let's roll some discussion in on this technique.

here's some thoughts on glancing lance:

. turn your body and get out 'da way of that knife
. double factor that initial right downward/outward strike with a left upward/inward strike up the forearm
. pluck and pull the knife hand at his wrist while hyper extending the elbow with your left.
. if the knife ain't gone, don't let go.
. if he pulls the knife hand back (retracts), follow his motion and apply a low outward wrist press, drive his elbow into the ground while bringing the blade up to his own throat. if he's smart, thats where he'll let go of the knife.
. examine alternate targets for the right kick. how about taking out his forward right knee... the pluck and tug should make it weight bearing and an easy target.
. explore the ideal-evenif-ideal phases built in the technique. the hop to get behind him may be for a second attack (hmmm.. where did i see this before?)
. practice restraining the attacker with your knee in his spine, left hand extending his neck, and right hand controling his right arm.

pete

 

[mj-hi-yah]

. turn your body and get out 'da way of that knife

I like dat one!

 

[Michael Billings]

That is definitly what my teacher (Tommy Burks), John Sepulveda, Pat Salantri, et. al. say about it. I do not really know anyone who stays on the line, and we really try to strike the elbow while controlling the wrist/hand/thumb portion holding the knife.

-Michael