I am an old fat guy who's decided to train in MA -- what do you think about my plan?

[saavedra]

Hey all –

I’m planning to BEGIN a martial arts journey, and I’ve done a little bit of research and have some ideas I want to run by you.

PHYSICAL:

• I’m old. Early fifties. I’m obese, and tall. 6’2” and 355 pounds.
• I’ve got wonky knees, but recent dieting (I’m down about 80 pounds) and daily exercise has improved them immeasurably.
• Lower body strength is much greater than upper.

MENTAL:

• If I knew I could avoid every potential conflict that’s in my future, I wouldn’t be training in MA.
• I’m ONLY interested in self-defense. I totally respect the martial arts, but I wouldn’t participate if I didn’t need to protect myself and my family. Two recent incidents in the NYC subway have lit a fire under my ***.
• I am only interested in training that involves sparring and live practice of technique. I did karate when I was a kid, and the katas never once helped me avoid an ***-kicking (understood that it might have been just the school that was the problem).
• If the training helps me get in shape, or lose weight, awesome! But I’m losing weight on my own now. I don’t want or need a “fitness” or “workout” component for its own sake—I just want to defend myself if things get physical. I plan to visit local schools and get the lowdown on what shape I HAVE to be in to practice with them and then meet their requirements.
• I’m not interested in competition, even if I could compete. I don’t imagine for a moment that I’ll be able to take on a dedicated martial artist. This is for the jokers in my neighborhood who sometimes get out of hand.
• I don’t want to practice martial arts for personal or spiritual development.
• I understand that as a precursor to training, I need to improve health, learn about situational awareness, etc.

After reviewing some (I believe) trustworthy sources, I thought I should engage with wrestling and boxing as disciplines. But I’m wondering which I should train first:

• Boxing? Since I imagine I’d need to lose weight before I start throwing people/getting thrown, I thought I could learn to throw a punch (and take a punch) before I start wrestling.
• Wrestling? Everyone I’ve talked to speaks highly of American wrestling as a great practice for self-defense. If I don’t have to worry about my knees, I’d start here.

In any case, whichever I do first—and if it works out—I thought that a thorough grounding in both would be a good foundation for further study, such as BJJ or Judo. What do you think? This is obviously a long-term program, but I’m excited about it.

• Which would you recommend for my first training? Boxing or wrestling? Are there training approaches or philosophies you value? Or specific NYC-area schools you’d recommend?
• If I could, down the road, leverage this initial training to work in a third, more advanced discipline, which would you recommend?
• If this approach needs revision, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks all. Total novice here, so go easy on me if any of this is nutty. I’m trying to piece together multiple sources, only a few of whom I know, and I’m honored that you will be part of that.

(FWIW, one of the two incidents mentioned above involved a muscular kid {150-175 or so pounds} in his early twenties running straight into me on the subway platform as a train pulled in. I had no time to react, and wouldn’t have known what to do anyway, but he just bounced off me like a rubber ball. This made me feel like I could put my bulk to good use in a fight, if I only knew how. Just including for extra context if it helps.)

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hey all –

I’m planning to BEGIN a martial arts journey, and I’ve done a little bit of research and have some ideas I want to run by you.

PHYSICAL:

• I’m old. Early fifties. I’m obese, and tall. 6’2” and 355 pounds.
• I’ve got wonky knees, but recent dieting (I’m down about 80 pounds) and daily exercise has improved them immeasurably.
• Lower body strength is much greater than upper.

MENTAL:

• If I knew I could avoid every potential conflict that’s in my future, I wouldn’t be training in MA.
• I’m ONLY interested in self-defense. I totally respect the martial arts, but I wouldn’t participate if I didn’t need to protect myself and my family. Two recent incidents in the NYC subway have lit a fire under my ***.
• I am only interested in training that involves sparring and live practice of technique. I did karate when I was a kid, and the katas never once helped me avoid an ***-kicking (understood that it might have been just the school that was the problem).
• If the training helps me get in shape, or lose weight, awesome! But I’m losing weight on my own now. I don’t want or need a “fitness” or “workout” component for its own sake—I just want to defend myself if things get physical. I plan to visit local schools and get the lowdown on what shape I HAVE to be in to practice with them and then meet their requirements.
• I’m not interested in competition, even if I could compete. I don’t imagine for a moment that I’ll be able to take on a dedicated martial artist. This is for the jokers in my neighborhood who sometimes get out of hand.
• I don’t want to practice martial arts for personal or spiritual development.
• I understand that as a precursor to training, I need to improve health, learn about situational awareness, etc.

After reviewing some (I believe) trustworthy sources, I thought I should engage with wrestling and boxing as disciplines. But I’m wondering which I should train first:

• Boxing? Since I imagine I’d need to lose weight before I start throwing people/getting thrown, I thought I could learn to throw a punch (and take a punch) before I start wrestling.
• Wrestling? Everyone I’ve talked to speaks highly of American wrestling as a great practice for self-defense. If I don’t have to worry about my knees, I’d start here.

In any case, whichever I do first—and if it works out—I thought that a thorough grounding in both would be a good foundation for further study, such as BJJ or Judo. What do you think? This is obviously a long-term program, but I’m excited about it.

• Which would you recommend for my first training? Boxing or wrestling? Are there training approaches or philosophies you value? Or specific NYC-area schools you’d recommend?
• If I could, down the road, leverage this initial training to work in a third, more advanced discipline, which would you recommend?
• If this approach needs revision, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks all. Total novice here, so go easy on me if any of this is nutty. I’m trying to piece together multiple sources, only a few of whom I know, and I’m honored that you will be part of that.

(FWIW, one of the two incidents mentioned above involved a muscular kid {150-175 or so pounds} in his early twenties running straight into me on the subway platform as a train pulled in. I had no time to react, and wouldn’t have known what to do anyway, but he just bounced off me like a rubber ball. This made me feel like I could put my bulk to good use in a fight, if I only knew how. Just including for extra context if it helps.)

Hi Saavedra,

First welcome to Martial Talk.

Next, are you or your family from the Cebu area in the Philippines?

 

[Gyakuto]

Boxing.

 

[saavedra]

Hi Saavedra,

First welcome to Martial Talk.

Next, are you or your family from the Cebu area in the Philippines?

Thanks for the welcome! I'm ready to learn.
My family is of Spanish descent and we're from the New York City area most recently - no Philippine connection.

 

[saavedra]

Boxing.

Can I ask you to say more? Is it because it is simpler, or will help me condition for other forms, or some other reason?

In any case, thanks for the reply...

 

[Gyakuto]

Can I ask you to say more? Is it because it is simpler, or will help me condition for other forms, or some other reason?

In any case, thanks for the reply...

The traditional martial arts are very hard in which to become competent, taking years of obsessive training, reading, research and various forms of conditioning. They’re somewhat like learning to play the violin: the first two or three years are characterised by screechiness and scrapes of ear horror! They are ‘full body’ endeavours requiring every limb, back, hip, elbow and knee to be relatively healthy when beginning. To continue to the point where you will feel and look competent requires a great deal of persistence and sheer bloody mindedness! This is evidenced by the high attrition rate of those starting their MA journey. They’re effectiveness as self defence is hotly debated and questionable in my opinion. Martial arts are not easy and they’re quite a lonely, self-motivating pursuits.

For whatever reason, (I suspect very effective coaching techniques), people seem to become competent in boxing much more quickly. It seems beginners can throw pretty scary punches in a shorter duration of training - not become excellent boxers- but fulfil the self-defence criteria you’ve listed. This a purely subjective observation and I’m not a boxing expert, but this is my non-expert observation. Punching bags and speed balls, jumping rope etc are great fun too, especially if you have ‘Eye of the Tiger‘ playing in the background. From my experience, boxing gyms seem to be very encouraging and supportive too, so you’re journey will be easier. Plus, those shiny shorts are so cool!

But your self-reported levels of fitness will be a real handicap. Being as overweight as you are (Your BMI = 46 and the normal range being 18.5-24.9. I’m allowed to talk about this as a former but reformed fat person 😉) and with the commensurate reduction in cardiovascular fitness that likely accompanies a BMI of 46, things will be very tough for you without substantial calorie restriction. But boxing’s extreme cardiovascular nature will really augment your mass reduction.

Of the the two options you have stated, I think, you’ll enjoy boxing more because you’ll become competent more quickly, you’ll be more likely to stick with it and you’ll have fun getting fitter too. But it’ll still hurt! 😃

Let’s hear a counter proposal from one of our grappling experts. Wrestling well is so difficult!

 

[gyoja]

Hey all –

I’m planning to BEGIN a martial arts journey, and I’ve done a little bit of research and have some ideas I want to run by you.

PHYSICAL:

• I’m old. Early fifties. I’m obese, and tall. 6’2” and 355 pounds.
• I’ve got wonky knees, but recent dieting (I’m down about 80 pounds) and daily exercise has improved them immeasurably.
• Lower body strength is much greater than upper.

MENTAL:

• If I knew I could avoid every potential conflict that’s in my future, I wouldn’t be training in MA.
• I’m ONLY interested in self-defense. I totally respect the martial arts, but I wouldn’t participate if I didn’t need to protect myself and my family. Two recent incidents in the NYC subway have lit a fire under my ***.
• I am only interested in training that involves sparring and live practice of technique. I did karate when I was a kid, and the katas never once helped me avoid an ***-kicking (understood that it might have been just the school that was the problem).
• If the training helps me get in shape, or lose weight, awesome! But I’m losing weight on my own now. I don’t want or need a “fitness” or “workout” component for its own sake—I just want to defend myself if things get physical. I plan to visit local schools and get the lowdown on what shape I HAVE to be in to practice with them and then meet their requirements.
• I’m not interested in competition, even if I could compete. I don’t imagine for a moment that I’ll be able to take on a dedicated martial artist. This is for the jokers in my neighborhood who sometimes get out of hand.
• I don’t want to practice martial arts for personal or spiritual development.
• I understand that as a precursor to training, I need to improve health, learn about situational awareness, etc.

After reviewing some (I believe) trustworthy sources, I thought I should engage with wrestling and boxing as disciplines. But I’m wondering which I should train first:

• Boxing? Since I imagine I’d need to lose weight before I start throwing people/getting thrown, I thought I could learn to throw a punch (and take a punch) before I start wrestling.
• Wrestling? Everyone I’ve talked to speaks highly of American wrestling as a great practice for self-defense. If I don’t have to worry about my knees, I’d start here.

In any case, whichever I do first—and if it works out—I thought that a thorough grounding in both would be a good foundation for further study, such as BJJ or Judo. What do you think? This is obviously a long-term program, but I’m excited about it.

• Which would you recommend for my first training? Boxing or wrestling? Are there training approaches or philosophies you value? Or specific NYC-area schools you’d recommend?
• If I could, down the road, leverage this initial training to work in a third, more advanced discipline, which would you recommend?
• If this approach needs revision, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks all. Total novice here, so go easy on me if any of this is nutty. I’m trying to piece together multiple sources, only a few of whom I know, and I’m honored that you will be part of that.

(FWIW, one of the two incidents mentioned above involved a muscular kid {150-175 or so pounds} in his early twenties running straight into me on the subway platform as a train pulled in. I had no time to react, and wouldn’t have known what to do anyway, but he just bounced off me like a rubber ball. This made me feel like I could put my bulk to good use in a fight, if I only knew how. Just including for extra context if it helps.)

I have had to train people in bulk in both grappling and striking. From my experience, I would recommend taking a grappling art first if your intention is learning self defense quickly. The guys that I trained then gained abilities faster learning grappling techniques first, with striking coming later. As a group, we found that the students picked up what they needed for survival faster and easier this way. I have used both systems in life threatening situations, and both have proven useful. I am primarily a striker and teach a striking art now, fwiw.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hey all –

I’m planning to BEGIN a martial arts journey, and I’ve done a little bit of research and have some ideas I want to run by you.

PHYSICAL:

• I’m old. Early fifties. I’m obese, and tall. 6’2” and 355 pounds.
• I’ve got wonky knees, but recent dieting (I’m down about 80 pounds) and daily exercise has improved them immeasurably.
• Lower body strength is much greater than upper.

MENTAL:

• If I knew I could avoid every potential conflict that’s in my future, I wouldn’t be training in MA.
• I’m ONLY interested in self-defense. I totally respect the martial arts, but I wouldn’t participate if I didn’t need to protect myself and my family. Two recent incidents in the NYC subway have lit a fire under my ***.
• I am only interested in training that involves sparring and live practice of technique. I did karate when I was a kid, and the katas never once helped me avoid an ***-kicking (understood that it might have been just the school that was the problem).
• If the training helps me get in shape, or lose weight, awesome! But I’m losing weight on my own now. I don’t want or need a “fitness” or “workout” component for its own sake—I just want to defend myself if things get physical. I plan to visit local schools and get the lowdown on what shape I HAVE to be in to practice with them and then meet their requirements.
• I’m not interested in competition, even if I could compete. I don’t imagine for a moment that I’ll be able to take on a dedicated martial artist. This is for the jokers in my neighborhood who sometimes get out of hand.
• I don’t want to practice martial arts for personal or spiritual development.
• I understand that as a precursor to training, I need to improve health, learn about situational awareness, etc.

After reviewing some (I believe) trustworthy sources, I thought I should engage with wrestling and boxing as disciplines. But I’m wondering which I should train first:

• Boxing? Since I imagine I’d need to lose weight before I start throwing people/getting thrown, I thought I could learn to throw a punch (and take a punch) before I start wrestling.
• Wrestling? Everyone I’ve talked to speaks highly of American wrestling as a great practice for self-defense. If I don’t have to worry about my knees, I’d start here.

In any case, whichever I do first—and if it works out—I thought that a thorough grounding in both would be a good foundation for further study, such as BJJ or Judo. What do you think? This is obviously a long-term program, but I’m excited about it.

• Which would you recommend for my first training? Boxing or wrestling? Are there training approaches or philosophies you value? Or specific NYC-area schools you’d recommend?
• If I could, down the road, leverage this initial training to work in a third, more advanced discipline, which would you recommend?
• If this approach needs revision, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks all. Total novice here, so go easy on me if any of this is nutty. I’m trying to piece together multiple sources, only a few of whom I know, and I’m honored that you will be part of that.

(FWIW, one of the two incidents mentioned above involved a muscular kid {150-175 or so pounds} in his early twenties running straight into me on the subway platform as a train pulled in. I had no time to react, and wouldn’t have known what to do anyway, but he just bounced off me like a rubber ball. This made me feel like I could put my bulk to good use in a fight, if I only knew how. Just including for extra context if it helps.)

You're overthinking all of this.

First, find out what is available where you live, during times you are available, for prices you can afford.

Second, research the schools.

Third, visit your shortlist. Observe training, talk to the instructors.

Fourth, choose the one you like the most and start training.

Don't worry about this or that specific type of martial arts training or exercise or your weight or whatever. All in good time. Perseverance is the key.

I speak from some background. I am 5' 10". I was 46 when I started training, and I had recently been diagnosed with diabetes and I was nearly 300 lbs. When I started training, I could not even finish the warm up exercises. I just did the best I could and eventually the weight started coming off and I could keep up with the warm ups. Eventually I learned karate. Now I'm 63 and a third-degree black belt. I weigh about 225 and I am still overweight, but not dangerously so.

As to multiple disciplines. First, that's putting the cart before the horse. Second, my own opinion has always been jack of all trades is master of none. I don't think I have time in my life to master one martial art. Two would be out of the question, I'd suck at both of them. Pick an art you like and will train in, then train.

 

[Gyakuto]

What would worry me, if using grappling in a self-defence situation, is the fear of my assailant have a hidden blade. At least with a striking art, you have a bit of distance from your threat. Pure conjecture, I hasten to add!

 

[gyoja]

What would worry me, if using grappling in a self-defence situation, is the fear of my assailant have a hidden blade. At least with a striking art, you have a bit of distance from your threat. Pure conjecture, I hasten to add!

I was actually in that situation once, just got to my knife faster. From my experience, it just seemed from what he doesn’t want to learn, the grappling arts would fit the bill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey all –

I’m planning to BEGIN a martial arts journey, and I’ve done a little bit of research and have some ideas I want to run by you.

PHYSICAL:

• I’m old. Early fifties. I’m obese, and tall. 6’2” and 355 pounds.
• I’ve got wonky knees, but recent dieting (I’m down about 80 pounds) and daily exercise has improved them immeasurably.
• Lower body strength is much greater than upper.

MENTAL:

• If I knew I could avoid every potential conflict that’s in my future, I wouldn’t be training in MA.
• I’m ONLY interested in self-defense. I totally respect the martial arts, but I wouldn’t participate if I didn’t need to protect myself and my family. Two recent incidents in the NYC subway have lit a fire under my ***.
• I am only interested in training that involves sparring and live practice of technique. I did karate when I was a kid, and the katas never once helped me avoid an ***-kicking (understood that it might have been just the school that was the problem).
• If the training helps me get in shape, or lose weight, awesome! But I’m losing weight on my own now. I don’t want or need a “fitness” or “workout” component for its own sake—I just want to defend myself if things get physical. I plan to visit local schools and get the lowdown on what shape I HAVE to be in to practice with them and then meet their requirements.
• I’m not interested in competition, even if I could compete. I don’t imagine for a moment that I’ll be able to take on a dedicated martial artist. This is for the jokers in my neighborhood who sometimes get out of hand.
• I don’t want to practice martial arts for personal or spiritual development.
• I understand that as a precursor to training, I need to improve health, learn about situational awareness, etc.

After reviewing some (I believe) trustworthy sources, I thought I should engage with wrestling and boxing as disciplines. But I’m wondering which I should train first:

• Boxing? Since I imagine I’d need to lose weight before I start throwing people/getting thrown, I thought I could learn to throw a punch (and take a punch) before I start wrestling.
• Wrestling? Everyone I’ve talked to speaks highly of American wrestling as a great practice for self-defense. If I don’t have to worry about my knees, I’d start here.

In any case, whichever I do first—and if it works out—I thought that a thorough grounding in both would be a good foundation for further study, such as BJJ or Judo. What do you think? This is obviously a long-term program, but I’m excited about it.

• Which would you recommend for my first training? Boxing or wrestling? Are there training approaches or philosophies you value? Or specific NYC-area schools you’d recommend?
• If I could, down the road, leverage this initial training to work in a third, more advanced discipline, which would you recommend?
• If this approach needs revision, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks all. Total novice here, so go easy on me if any of this is nutty. I’m trying to piece together multiple sources, only a few of whom I know, and I’m honored that you will be part of that.

(FWIW, one of the two incidents mentioned above involved a muscular kid {150-175 or so pounds} in his early twenties running straight into me on the subway platform as a train pulled in. I had no time to react, and wouldn’t have known what to do anyway, but he just bounced off me like a rubber ball. This made me feel like I could put my bulk to good use in a fight, if I only knew how. Just including for extra context if it helps.)

I haven't read the other replies, but I'll give the same answer I gave a few folks who asked about joining my classes when I was teaching, but were either very out of shape or significantly overweight.

Learning falls is hard on the body. Once you get good at them, the toll is much less. The more weight you have, and the less supporting muscle, the harder they are. I'd suggest finding something that doesn't involve falls until you get yourself in shape. Boxing and other styles that don't involve falls are a great place to start. BJJ has a lot of options that don't involve throws, and the ground work is great for developing those support muscles, so anything that looks like BJJ is reasonable for starting, too - just make sure the instructor is okay helping you work without any real falls for a while (some takedowns can be done without much of a fall, so could be reasonable).

I never had enough class time to help those folks (I only offered classes 3 times a week, at most, so had to stick to my main curriculum). When I taught at my primary instructor's school, there were enough partners and class times to let folks work up quite slowly to taking falls (focusing on other drills to build up to them). So I just didn't have the ability to help them out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What would worry me, if using grappling in a self-defence situation, is the fear of my assailant have a hidden blade. At least with a striking art, you have a bit of distance from your threat. Pure conjecture, I hasten to add!

For me, grappling is about learning to control them and deal with the chaos of them being that close. If the blade comes into play, they're going to want to close that distance, and there are plenty of situations where you might not be able to control that. Grappling gives you a skill set for controlling the limb. I have never carried a knife usable for SD - there have alwauys been just too many places I go to where I can't have them. When my foot and knee were worse, I often carried a cane, partly for walking and partly as a self-defense aid.

 

[Gyakuto]

I was actually in that situation once, just got to my knife faster. From my experience, it just seemed from what he doesn’t want to learn, the grappling arts would fit the bill.

Yikes! 😳

 

[gyoja]

Yikes! 😳

Part of the job….

 

[Gyakuto]

Part of the job….

As an accountant?😳

 

[gyoja]

As an accountant?😳

Probably would have been a healthier line of work. Knowing my luck, I would have found a way to be horribly maimed doing that as well 😄

 

[Gyakuto]

Probably would have been a healthier line of work. Knowing my luck, I would have found a way to be horribly maimed doing that as well 😄

Deep paper cuts, RSI and spreadsheet blindness are a real and dangerous issue in accountancy.

 

[Gyakuto]

For me, grappling is about learning to control them and deal with the chaos of them being that close. If the blade comes into play, they're going to want to close that distance, and there are plenty of situations where you might not be able to control that. Grappling gives you a skill set for controlling the limb. I have never carried a knife usable for SD - there have alwauys been just too many places I go to where I can't have them. When my foot and knee were worse, I often carried a cane, partly for walking and partly as a self-defense aid.

But isn’t grappling sort of like non-sexual hugging?😐 A blade could be reached for without you realising and pressed into your body. Unless it was a sword, of course.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What would worry me, if using grappling in a self-defence situation, is the fear of my assailant have a hidden blade. At least with a striking art, you have a bit of distance from your threat. Pure conjecture, I hasten to add!

From a self-defence perspective, you should always be grappling with the idea that they've got a hidden weapon on them somewhere. So always keep their hands in line of sight and/or (ideally) control them so they are not able to reach that weapon. And do whatever it is you're trying to do quick enough that they don't have time to pull out their knife and shank ya

 

[MuayJitsu]

Just find a place go train there if you like it keep training there. If you don’t repeat the first part somewhere else until you find what you like