Kenpo Knife and Club Techniques

[MJS]

We had some interesting discussion going on in this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25614&page=1

so I thought it would be interesting to discuss the other weapon based Kenpo techniques. In the above mentioned thread, its mentioned that the gun techs. are in need of some tweaking if they're expected to work. So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are?

 

[Casey_Sutherland]

I just learnt my first lance technique, Raining lance. So far so good. The qualities I like about the kenpo knife techniques from what I have seen are that they simply don;t just disarm the knife and then strike the opponent with simply a barrage of punches or kicks, but instead uses the assailants knife against them. Gotta love a kenpoists respect, you try to stab me, i will stab you back many times with your own knife.

 

[Drifter]

I would say that they need modification from a legal standpoint for the reason above. The law recognizes restraint, not stabbing a disarmed attacker with their own knife because they ruined your night.

In the base 154, there are, to my knowledge, no techniques against slashing.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

We had some interesting discussion going on in this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25614&page=1

so I thought it would be interesting to discuss the other weapon based Kenpo techniques. In the above mentioned thread, its mentioned that the gun techs. are in need of some tweaking if they're expected to work. So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are?

Club techniques are fine. Knife techniques are ok. However some knife concepts need to be addressed in training such as reverse cutting and reverse grips. These remain LARGELY unaddressed in kenpo. American Kenpo knife techniques are designed to be used against an untrained knife fighter. Where as the empty hand technques progressed from unskilled attackers to skilled attackers the weapon techniques stayed with dealing with unskilled attackers. Especially with regards to a knife.

 

[Casey_Sutherland]

I would say that they need modification from a legal standpoint for the reason above. The law recognizes restraint, not stabbing a disarmed attacker with their own knife because they ruined your night.

In the base 154, there are, to my knowledge, no techniques against slashing.

If an assailant is tring to stab me in the head he's already gone past ruining my night. Techniques are sentances where I might simply use a few words. I purly enjoy using someones weapon against them. I agree with these techniques being tailored to be used against an uneducated knife wielding attacker. Most often if someone is attacking you with a knife and they are well trained you don't see the knife until its already too late. For a good non-kenpo view of knife fighting and just bare bones basics I enjoy http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

 

[MJS]

I would say that they need modification from a legal standpoint for the reason above. The law recognizes restraint, not stabbing a disarmed attacker with their own knife because they ruined your night.

In the base 154, there are, to my knowledge, no techniques against slashing.

You bring up a good point regarding the legal standpoint. However, if you look at the majority of Kenpo techniques, you will see some sort of poke to the eye, arm break, etc. all of which, depending on the situation at hand, could be considered excessive. Lone Kimono contains an arm break for a lapel grab. Is this necessary or could we have done a joint lock instead? As for the knife. Keep in mind that we're being presented with deadly force being used against us. Breaking a limb or returning the knife as part of our defense would probably not be frowned upon.

I posted this link in another thread topic, but I think that it fits here as well:

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/whatsnew/LADDERsm.jpg


As for the various knife attacks, I've just seen defense against a thrust and overhead stab. Slashing or any other grip appears to not have been addressed.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Club techniques are fine. Knife techniques are ok. However some knife concepts need to be addressed in training such as reverse cutting and reverse grips. These remain LARGELY unaddressed in kenpo. American Kenpo knife techniques are designed to be used against an untrained knife fighter. Where as the empty hand technques progressed from unskilled attackers to skilled attackers the weapon techniques stayed with dealing with unskilled attackers. Especially with regards to a knife.

Good point! So, going on that, wouldn't you say that they would need to be updated to deal with the possibility of a skilled attacker?

Mike

 

[Drifter]

"I purly enjoy using someones weapon against them."

That's a poor defense for what's being done. Not to mention a poor defense in the courtroom afterwards.

"However, if you look at the majority of Kenpo techniques, you will see some sort of poke to the eye, arm break, etc. all of which, depending on the situation at hand, could be considered excessive. Lone Kimono contains an arm break for a lapel grab. Is this necessary or could we have done a joint lock instead?"

Are they punching us in the face yet?

"Keep in mind that we're being presented with deadly force being used against us. Breaking a limb or returning the knife as part of our defense would probably not be frowned upon."

I'm thinking of 'returning' in a different light. I think that returning the knife is fine, as long as it is still in the attacker's hand (a la Raining Lance). But once you take it, then you NEED to show restraint. Both from a moral (for most of us) and legal standpoint.

This is based on the assumption that you CAN disarm the knife at a realistic speed, and already have.

Mr. MacYoung has talked about wound patterns of justifiable self defense on Kelly Worden's radio show. The jist was (if I recall correctly) if you use a knife in self defense, cutting and cutting and cutting will not get you far afterwards from a legal standpoint. Rather, one or two cuts that are capable of stopping someone will be looked upon much more kindly. And this is against an armed attacker. We're dealing with people who have been disarmed.

I would be interested in hearing responses from some of Mr. Pick's students.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Good point! So, going on that, wouldn't you say that they would need to be updated to deal with the possibility of a skilled attacker?

Mike

Absolutely! people KEEEEEEP giving the EXCUSE!!! ::cough:: that "If it's a trained knife fighter you wouldn't see the knife anyway so it's already too late." (insert sobs here) Well if the guy knows how to use a gun you A) won't see the gun B) won't be within range to defend and C) will be shot from said range anyway so why train for that either? The knife techniques that are present are useful in showing defensive suggestions against the unskilled. I'm for developing other techniques that address the skilled knife wielder. But I'm also for Kenpo incorporating some ground work to address what happens when you do end up on the ground instead of assuming that the "skilled Kenpoist" just will never end up there. I have personally put other kenpoists with as much as 10-15 years of training on their backs and rendered them helpless, repeatedly. So at what point do they "become skilled". But I guess we could take the attitude of "well against a skilled groundfighter you can't avoid getting taken down and beaten anyway so why train it." Oh wait a minute...I forgot....eye guoges, fish hooks, hair pulling and biting fix all that. All the dirty tactics are only superior to groundfighting, they're not superior to stand up fighting though LOL LOL LOL. Anyway back to topic. Yes Mike the kenpo knife techniques could either use some revision or some new knife techniques could be devised to address the skilled knife weilder. The old adaje of if the person is skilled it's already too late needs to go. If the person is a skilled boxer I guess half of punch techniques wouldn't work either? and none of the tackle-hug techniques work on grapplers either? If there is a possibility of defending against it I say train for it. First lesson of kenpo in most manuals I've read "accept that the danger exists and decide to do something about it." All other notions get a flag on the play. What flag you ask?

This One.

P.S. Sorry for the rant Mike, just getting a bit fed up with the people who make excuses for not training the really hard stuff. The way is in the training and I'm for training any scenario I can think of. Someone who knows more about a knife than just cutting steak definitely ranks up there on the list of possibilities.

 

[MJS]

"I purly enjoy using someones weapon against them."

That's a poor defense for what's being done. Not to mention a poor defense in the courtroom afterwards.

I know this is not my quote but I'll reply anyway. IMO, when you're faced with deadly force, if you use the attackers weapon or a weapon of your own, the fact still comes down to you being faced with a deadly situation.

"However, if you look at the majority of Kenpo techniques, you will see some sort of poke to the eye, arm break, etc. all of which, depending on the situation at hand, could be considered excessive. Lone Kimono contains an arm break for a lapel grab. Is this necessary or could we have done a joint lock instead?"

Are they punching us in the face yet?

LK is for a left lapel grab. My question is: If they're simply grabbing us, we should respond with force in a similar fashion. Breaking the arm IMHO, is more force than they used against us.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Absolutely! people KEEEEEEP giving the EXCUSE!!! ::cough:: that "If it's a trained knife fighter you wouldn't see the knife anyway so it's already too late." (insert sobs here) Well if the guy knows how to use a gun you A) won't see the gun B) won't be within range to defend and C) will be shot from said range anyway so why train for that either? The knife techniques that are present are useful in showing defensive suggestions against the unskilled. I'm for developing other techniques that address the skilled knife wielder. But I'm also for Kenpo incorporating some ground work to address what happens when you do end up on the ground instead of assuming that the "skilled Kenpoist" just will never end up there. I have personally put other kenpoists with as much as 10-15 years of training on their backs and rendered them helpless, repeatedly. So at what point do they "become skilled". But I guess we could take the attitude of "well against a skilled groundfighter you can't avoid getting taken down and beaten anyway so why train it." Oh wait a minute...I forgot....eye guoges, fish hooks, hair pulling and biting fix all that. All the dirty tactics are only superior to groundfighting, they're not superior to stand up fighting though LOL LOL LOL. Anyway back to topic. Yes Mike the kenpo knife techniques could either use some revision or some new knife techniques could be devised to address the skilled knife weilder. The old adaje of if the person is skilled it's already too late needs to go. If the person is a skilled boxer I guess half of punch techniques wouldn't work either? and none of the tackle-hug techniques work on grapplers either? If there is a possibility of defending against it I say train for it. First lesson of kenpo in most manuals I've read "accept that the danger exists and decide to do something about it." All other notions get a flag on the play. What flag you ask?

This One.

P.S. Sorry for the rant Mike, just getting a bit fed up with the people who make excuses for not training the really hard stuff. The way is in the training and I'm for training any scenario I can think of. Someone who knows more about a knife than just cutting steak definitely ranks up there on the list of possibilities.

Its not a rant James. You're making some very good points here, and I feel that you and I are agreeing on things more than disagreeing. Take a look at some past posts, both here and on the KN. What do you see? People talking about making a change for an improvement and what is the result? People saying that there needs to be no changes. Hmmm..go figure. :idunno: IMHO, there is always room for improvement in one way, shape or form. Its a fact of life that change happens, and it happens every day! Again, I'm not saying that we need to train 20 different arts, but if we cross train, cross ref. or whatever else we want to call it, the fact remains that we're getting exposure to other things that are out there.

Mike

 

[Ceicei]

I really like the club techniques. They are among my favorites.

Sigh...moving on to a more complex subject.

At my studio, we do have defenses against knife slashes (and other types of knife/sword attacks). Now, I am not sure if these techs are within the "standard EPAK curriculum" as taught by other EPAK studios; I am aware my studio has a "progressive" slant to how we train. We adhere to the Kenpo principles and concepts with everything we do.

I do know that Mr. Parker emphasized the "what-if" concept. The more advanced we become, the more we should examine techniques from a "what-if" perspective--what if the attacker holds the knife this way? What if he moves in this manner? Existing techniques are adaptable as long as we understand and analyze the possibilities. The hope is that we would reach a level of "no mind" when Kenpo becomes so ingrained with how we move.

I do carry guns and have a limited knowledge of gun disarms as taught by my CCW instructors. I am looking forward to the time when I can learn actual Kenpo gun techniques and see whether any of them would/could fit or adapt to our current [at a loss for words here]. I'm thinking environment, but it is more than just what is around us. I will revisit this issue when I reach that point in my training.

- Ceicei

 

[Seabrook]

I love the club techniques, and think they all work great. There are only 5 knife techniques and they can be made to work but aren't necessarily my first choice of defense, especially given my background in Modern Arnis.

Of the 5 lance techniques, Entwined would be my favorite.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[kenpoworks]

......... my studio has a "progressive" slant to how we train. We adhere to the Kenpo principles and concepts with everything we do.

- Ceicei

Well Ceicei,
This seems like a great basis for Kenpo training and one that I adhere to at my club, BTW congratulations!!
Rich

 

[sandan]

just a few weeks ago we were testing one of the top attorneys in our area, and for his project he addressed the legality of the self defense plea. And what we discovered was that it really depends on the jury. The jury must decide what is considered within reason, and obviously that makes it very very vague. As he was going through his project you start to realize just how restricted the victim/potential victim is...throw in knowledge of martial arts and it restricts you even more. Reciprocal force hardly holds any weight it seems.
For example someone comes at you with a knife trying to kill you, you disarm and knock out your opponent, no more threat do
a. pummel him more while the guy is still on the ground
b. retreat
the answer is it really depends...your safest and wisest option is to retreat, but for a. you could make the case that the attacker was still flailing on the ground or grabbed you and was still seen as a possible threat to yourself and others. maybe a route of retreat was not obvious. It really depends. It really sucks too, not only do you have to assess a situation but you also have to try to take into consideration long term consequences. However, there is so much to add to this...Maybe another post

my favorite response to the ever famous question of: Have you ever had to use your karate on anyone?
A: No one's tried to kill me yet

 

[Michael Billings]

Under the color of the law, there is a self-defense provision. It is however, subject to the reasonable and prudent man doctrine. Whatever force is necessary to stop the attack is "probably" an affirmative defense. Other factors are also included, such as:

• Gender difference
• Size difference
• Weapons (did you pick it up and use it on the attacker after he was down)
• Time of day
• Location; etc.

Martial Artist are held more accountable, where Overkill is literally not related to Overskill. The more skilled you are, the less likely you are to have to use deadly force. The better able you are to be able to do it, but if the attacker goes to the morgue and the doctor cannot tell which injury killed him ... because there are so many ... then you may be in trouble. (Mr. Parker had a great story about wanting to have the doctor have to catalog all the injuries and causes of death. But he also was aware of the potential legal and civil ramifications of multiple injuries).

-Michael

 

[Likaes the Bandit]

Every sistem has gaps and room for improvement

Cross training is the answer for all those problems if you want to feel more confident about knife and or clubs attacks and how to take them on a good choice is to train in Kali. I have learn a lot more and expanded my skills list when i started training in kali to complement my kenpo. Cross training is very important to me the thing in my list is ground figthing just because you never know where you gona end or who will attack you.

 

[Brian Jones]

Cross training can be an answer to those issues, I don't know if I would say that it is the answer to the issues. Very often the answers we seek are in our own system, we just haven't spent enought time exploiring what we have to offer. There are tiems when cors training is simply an easy way out.
I am not agsint cross training, I train in Modern Arnis as well. But I began training in it becase I was interested, and saw the relationship to Kenpo, not becuase there are gaps in Kenpo.
I do admit that the Filipino arts do allow us to cocentrate more on weapons and therefore we becoem much more ocmfortable in dealing with them.

Brian Jones

 

[Kalicombat]

Every sistem has gaps and room for improvement

Cross training is the answer for all those problems if you want to feel more confident about knife and or clubs attacks and how to take them on a good choice is to train in Kali. I have learn a lot more and expanded my skills list when i started training in kali to complement my kenpo. Cross training is very important to me the thing in my list is ground figthing just because you never know where you gona end or who will attack you.

Bandit, it says that you are a Kenpo Yellow belt. How can you possibly make any kind of educated assessment of the Kenpo system, and the gaps that you percieve are present, having only worked yellow belt material? The issue of cross training has been hashed, rehashed, and mixed with some kind of gravy, time and time again in regards to kenpo on this very forum and others. It is not the time or place to break out those old posts, but I must say that you have alot of material yet to learn in the American Kenpo system. Why not devote some time to learning this system correctly before you start wandering off to fill the gaps, which, in my opinion, are not there.

If you are a yellow belt, you've been through the first 10 techniques. Congrats on accomplishing that level. However, you still have 144 base techniques, plus extensions, sets, forms, free style techniques, an entire vocabulary, a complete text on principles, concepts, stance changes, anatomical alignment, not to mention having a fundamental proficiency of the real secrets of kenpo which are the basics, and a whole lot of sweat to put up before you should be worried about what kenpo CANT handle. Yellow belt is usually obtained in three months or so, given that, it is impossible for you to point out American Kenpo's shortcomings in the combat realm.

Gary Catherman

 

[pete]

However, you still have 144 base techniques, plus extensions, sets, forms, free style techniques, an entire vocabulary, a complete text on principles, concepts, stance changes, anatomical alignment, not to mention having a fundamental proficiency of the real secrets of kenpo which are the basics, and a whole lot of sweat to put up before you should be worried about what kenpo CANT handle.

YES!!!

unfortunately, its not just the the yellow belts, but often their instructors who place these ideas into students heads, either by omitting significant parts of the system, making ill-conceived changes to the material, or pushing another art that they teach to fill the gaps (that they created).

pete.