kempo and kenpo

[rachel]

What is the difference between the two? Any? None? I've heard bad things about Kempo, that it's not really karate. It's a joke.I go to a school for chinese Kempo. I really like it alot. I look forward to going but why do people knock it?

 

[Blindside]

Well, kenpo and kempo are technically the same things. It should be spelled "kenpo" but pronounced "kempo." Regardless of who is right about how to spell it, there has been an artificial division in how it is used in the US. The schools using "kempo" tend to be identified with traditional Japanese systems, an example would be Shorinji Kempo. On the other hand, kenpo tends to be identified with schools that are less traditional and have a more modern approach, Ed Parkers American Kenpo being a prime example.

The funny thing is within both camps (kenpo and kempo) are groups that say their stuff isn't "karate," so everybody is right. I wouldn't worry about it, if you are having fun and feel you are learning good material then do it.

Lamont

 

[Elfan]

More info than you probably wanted:

http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

Edit: One of the mods know why the link doesn't seem to work right?

 

[Zoran]

You mean this.
http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

 

[Elfan]

Ya thats it :-D

 

[Kempojujutsu]

It's been awhile since I have been on here. I feel a little lost. But any way, most people who spell it Kempo are closer to Okinawan Karate than Japanese karate. Japanese karate comes from Okinawan karate.
Bob :asian:

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Japanese karate comes from Okinawan karate.
Bob :asian:

Well, if you really want to get technical, Funakoshi was the first to use the term Kara-Te. Before him, it was called Okinawa-Te and China-Te (really a rough translation). Karate, these days, is nothing more than a term used because of it's popularity (economics).

My general and very symplified understanding.

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Zoran

Well, if you really want to get technical, Funakoshi was the first to use the term Kara-Te. Before him, it was called Okinawa-Te and China-Te (really a rough translation). Karate, these days, is nothing more than a term used because of it's popularity (economics).

My general and very symplified understanding.

He started to ue the term Karate when he developed Shotokan which was a watered down version of Ryukyu Kempo to teach to school children. Kempo and Kenpo are the same and as mentioned before the more eclectic arts tend to use Kenpo and the more traditional ones use Kempo.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by rachel

What is the difference between the two? Any? None? I've heard bad things about Kempo, that it's not really karate. It's a joke.I go to a school for chinese Kempo. I really like it alot. I look forward to going but why do people knock it?

The only people who would bag Kempo are Kenpo people. I have found though my training (did Kenpo, now do Kempo) that American Kenpo has developed a lot of (not all) arrogant instructors who believe that their art is the be all and end all and that nothing comes close. Ignore what others say and just enjoy your training, if it gives you what you want it is good.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Actually the word is Ch'uan Fa which is Chinese for Kempo, this comes from Mandarin Chinese pronunciation which means "The law of the fist or fist law". The Cantonese pronunciation is kune fat. Okinawan's don't speak Japanese.
Bob:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Elfan

More info than you probably wanted:

http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

Edit: One of the mods know why the link doesn't seem to work right?

The apostrophe confuses it, unfortunately. There's a workaround. In this case you could use:
http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

(just add a [url ] tag before it and a [/url ] tag after it, not ). There's another workaround involving replacing the apostrophe in the URL with a special set of characters.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Nightingale]

The word itself has the same meaning no matter how its spelled.

Different styles use different spellings.

Every style has good points and bad points. Including EPAK. I wish EPAK had a little more groundfighting, because if I ended up going to the ground, I wouldn't know what to do, because its not a situation I've ever trained for.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Zoran

Well, if you really want to get technical, Funakoshi was the first to use the term Kara-Te. Before him, it was called Okinawa-Te and China-Te (really a rough translation). Karate, these days, is nothing more than a term used because of it's popularity (economics).

My general and very symplified understanding.

Could you elaborate on the old names? Karate means "hands of china" or "china hands" so woudn't that be the same as "China-te"? ie china-te = kara-te But you are saying that that is different from karate.

that American Kenpo has developed a lot of (not all) arrogant instructors who believe that their art is the be all and end all and that nothing comes close.

I have met some *very* arrogant people in American Kenpo but I would be cautiaous about implying that any art has more arrogant people in it. I'm sure there are plenty of arrogant BBJ/TKD/Judo/Kempo etc. people.


Thanks arnisador.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Elfan

Could you elaborate on the old names? Karate means "hands of china" or "china hands" so woudn't that be the same as "China-te"? ie china-te = kara-te But you are saying that that is different from karate.

As I can't find the reference to this, I will try to do it from my falible memory.

Kara-Te actually means "empty hands". The kanji that was used in Okinawa before Funakoshi, was different. Funakoshi changed this when he started teaching to the Japanese. As no Japanese person would learn a system called China-Hands, he changed to Kara-Te (empty hands). What the actual term was in the Okinawan language, I'm not too sure of. I do recall something about "To-De?", but don't quote me on it.

This question would be best answered in the Karate section of the forum. My knowledge of Japanese/Okinawan systems and history is limited.

 

[Elfan]

Ahh I see what you mean now. "Karate" means *both* "china hands" and "empty hands" depending on what character you use. Funakoshi popularized the "empty hands" version for the reason you stated. As I recall the kenpo crest uses the "china hands" version but thats my own fuzzy memory at work.

 

[Michael Billings]

I also remember something about To-De ... not to be confused with Toady, one who does someone elses bidding.

As one of those American Kenpo instructors, I feel offended. I know it was not a personal attack, or was it? I have been in the martial arts over 30 years, and know whereof you speak ... but it is definitly not just American Kenpo people, and I don't like the generalization. I loved my Chinese Kenpo, Taekwondo, and Shotokan.

There have always been a few bad apples in every Art, a few upper belts who were aloof and condesending toward other systems. There does tend to be an opinion that "what I do is the best", otherwise they would not continue training. It has only been the last decade that "cross training" and the JKD model has really come into general acceptance.

We respected everyone else and did not demean anyone in other Arts, in my more traditional art of Shotokan. In Taekwondo we just did not know any better (that anything existed outside of Taekwondo.) The Chinese Kenpo school I attended for 14 years was very respectful towards others and what they had to offer. The "young Black Belt superior attidude" was quickly squelched by my Seniors.

Sorry, guess you hit a nerve. I have enourmous respect for my teachers, and their teacher. I would not think of demeaning anyone's art, OK, I take that back, I have said negative stuff about Take-One's-Dough, but in jest, and have said an equal amount of good things about it.

Oos,
-Michael

 

[rmcrobertson]

What Michael said.

Other than that, I ain't touchin' this can of snakes.

 

[Michael Billings]

Zoran, I hope you know that the 1st sentence was the only one directed at you. Not my inexcusable rant. Sorry everyone.

It was my understanding from research done years earlier that Funicochi lobbyed to have the Kanji character changed, and it was an actual act of the Diet (legislature) to change the meaning of the character from "Okinawa Hand" to "Empty Hand". Seems like the conflict was not with "China Hand", but with the subjugated Okinawans. They did not want this to be "Okinawa Hand".

I am no expert in Japanese history of Karate, but remember references to this over the years. Hope this does not muddy the waters more.

Oos,
-Michael

 

[arnisador]

There are indeed threads on these issues in the Karate forum and in the Japanese Martial Arts--General forum, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1832

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

Zoran, I hope you know that the 1st sentence was the only one directed at you. Not my inexcusable rant. Sorry everyone.

Yup, I figured. We all need a good rant every so often.

Arnisador,
Thanks for that link. Now I know I wasn't going crazy.