Chinese Kenpo/Kempo or Kung Fu?

[Sapper6]

Simple question with, perhaps, not such a simple answer:

What is the difference between Chinese kenpo/kempo and traditional animal form kung fu?

In researching this myself, I googled the term "Chinese Kenpo" was directed to several sites (all the top ranking ones) that traced the history of Chinese Kenpo/Kempo to the 5 animal forms of the Shaolin Temple. Quite perplexing since I've always thought the temple forms of fighting were raw kung fu in it's finest.

So, what's the deal?

 

[Flying Crane]

This is how I understand it.

Kenpo is a Japanese translation of a Chinese word (kuen fa) that means roughly "law of the fist". Use of the term is recognition of the Chinese origins of an art that came thru Japan. Tracing its roots back to any specific Chinese art, however, is difficult at best, probably impossible, altho some try awfully hard to make that connection, often claiming some direct lineage to the Shaolin temple. I think it's a big stretch of the imigaination, at best. Kenpo looks very little like the Shaolin arts today. Suffice it to understand that the art came to the US thru Hawaii, from Japan, but has roots and influences in China.

The Karate arts tried to hide this by changing the written character meaning "China" Hand to "Empty" Hand, even tho the pronounciation remained the same. This was a deliberate attempt to obscure the Chinese influences of the Okinawan and Japanese arts. It was done for political reasons at that time in history.

Those arts that use the word Kenpo continue to acknowledge the Chinese roots and influences, thru use of that term.

At least this is how I understand it for those who try to equate the various Kenpo/Kempo arts to a Kung Fu style.

I understand that Ed Parker studied under some Kung Fu people and that influenced his development of his Kenpo. What he taught during that time period (I guess the 1960s or so) sometimes is called "Chinese Kenpo" because of this influence. I am sure others here, such as DOC could explain this much better than I could.

 

[pstarr]

Yes, you're right. Kenpo..."ken" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese character "chuan" which means "fist. "Po" is the Japanese pronunciation for "fa" which means "method; way of doing something." So Kenpo means the same thing as "chuan-fa" - "Fist Method."

To use the term "Chinese Kenpo" is a bit odd because the word "kenpo" is Japanese...so it's kind of like saying "Japanese Chuan-Fa"...if you see what I mean.

The original characters for "Karate" ("Kara" and "Te") meant "China Hand" (actually the "kara" character was indicative of the Tang Dynasty but generically referred to China).
Later, when the political climate changed and relations between China and Japan were not so smooth the character was changed to read "empty" - the word for "empty" and the word for "China; Tang" were pronounced alike but written differently.


But Flying Crane is right.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

I think that a student of Prof. William Chow, a Bill Chun Jr teaches a style called Chinese Kempo.

 

[Sapper6]

Thanks for the replies.

I understand the term "kenpo" and it's translation of "chuan fa". I guess what I'm really asking is, what is the difference between those systems, and animal form kung fu?

Let me throw this out there: Is it the modernization of the techniques that are tailored more for present day street encounters that separates the systems from more traditional kung fu?

A large percentage of the the Chinese kenpo websites I found refer to themselves teaching Chinese Kenpo, Chinese karate, etc., but teach Ed Parker's commercial curriculum. How can this be when Parker's system has been labeled American kenpo?

I'd like to hear from the CMA guys and gals on this as well as the Parker guys. Maybe I should have posted this under the Kenpo board to field more input. (maybe a mod can help out )

One more question: Is the NCKKA under Mr. Swan the original Chinese kenpo? What about the Tracy systems?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[dianhsuhe]

You might research Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Karate. Professor Chow's art has a pretty noticeable Chinese influence.

Hope this helps-

 

[Jade Tigress]

Mod Note

Thread moved to the Kenpo Forum.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator

 

[Flying Crane]

Thanks for the replies.

I understand the term "kenpo" and it's translation of "chuan fa". I guess what I'm really asking is, what is the difference between those systems, and animal form kung fu?

Let me throw this out there: Is it the modernization of the techniques that are tailored more for present day street encounters that separates the systems from more traditional kung fu?

A large percentage of the the Chinese kenpo websites I found refer to themselves teaching Chinese Kenpo, Chinese karate, etc., but teach Ed Parker's commercial curriculum. How can this be when Parker's system has been labeled American kenpo?

I'd like to hear from the CMA guys and gals on this as well as the Parker guys. Maybe I should have posted this under the Kenpo board to field more input. (maybe a mod can help out )

One more question: Is the NCKKA under Mr. Swan the original Chinese kenpo? What about the Tracy systems?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Al, Jim and Will Tracy were among the earliest students of Ed Parker in the 1950s and early 1960s (I think Will claims to have been a student of William Chow). As Mr. Parker later changed the art that he was teaching, the Tracys decided to keep the original curriculum. For whatever reasons they had, they disagreed with the direction Mr. Parker was taking the art, so they ultimately split away completely. Their claim is that they teach the original art as it was taught in the early days by Mr. Parker, and this makes the assumption that Mr. Parker at that time was teaching the art as he learned it from William Chow. The Tracys call their art "Tracys Kenpo Karate", and refer to it as "traditional kenpo". The Tracy Curriculum contains many more formal Self Defense Techniques than the EPAK curriculum, (some 381 in Tracys, plus variations totaling about 600, to about 154 plus extensions in EPAK) but you would find much that is similar in the two curriculi. Tracys don't have all the "sets" that EPAK has, but the numbered forms follow closely. Tracys also has a number of other forms and material that were adopted from other Chinese arts.

As to the differences between kenpo and animal and other forms of Kung Fu: to my knowledge, kenpo is the only art that has a curriculum structured in the way that it does. This vast body of Self Defense techniques is an approach that other arts tend to not do. Many other arts do have some self defense techniques similar to kenpos, but not nearly so many, and they don't make them the main focus of their curriculum. So kenpo is a bit unique in that regard. Whether that makes it a more "modern" or somehow "effective" or "useful" system would be subject to debate and personal opinion.

Typically, Chinese arts tend to be focused around forms. Students learn basics first: stances, strikes, blocking, kicking, footwork, etc. Then they learn the forms, which contain the formal body of knowledge contained in the system. Once the form is learned, the student studies it and learns how to apply the movement in the form to actual fighting. The forms can be very stylized, esp. in the animal systems.

Kenpo tends to work in the other direction. The student learns the SD techniques, which are the main focus of the curriculum, and many of the forms are built using these same SD techs. The kenpo forms, at least in Tracys and EPAK systems, are not stylized in the way the animal arts are. They are just straight forward SD techs, no fluff, not much "hidden" or obscured the way the Asian arts can be.

Some Kenpo branches claim to have added Chinese material, in particular the animal material. I believe these branches trace their lineage back to William Chow in Hawaii (Ed Parker's teacher), but route thru people like Nick Cerio and Fred Villari on the East Coast, perhaps also Ralph Castro in California. I have not seen their material so I cannot really comment on it. However, it is my suspicion that what they have added is not true Chinese animal material. I think there is a tendency by some to learn a little material that contains a few animal-like movements, i.e. tigerclaws, or crane stances, and then claim that they have incorporated the "Five Animals Kung Fu". Again, I can't really judge because I am not familiar with their stuff, but I am suspicious and doubtful. I think Animal Kung Fu is deep and thorough all by itself, and isn't something that one can just quickly and easily "add" to their kenpo system. It would require a lot of deep study and long practice to understand and gain competence with it first. Maybe these people have really done this, but I just don't know.

There is also a difference between Five Animals kung fu, and complete Animal arts. Five Animals is something that several Chinese systems contain, like Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut. These are sort of subsets, or specific forms developed around the five animals, tiger, dragon, crane, deer, I can't remember the fifth, and they make up only a portion of the complete curriculum of the system. And I think different arts may list the five animals differently.

But this is different from the complete systems based around an animal, such as Tibetan White Crane, Fukien White Crane, Preying Mantis, Black Tiger, Dragon Style, etc. The Crane that you would find in Choy Li Fut's Five Animals would not be the same as the Tibetan White Crane, or the Fukien White Crane systems, for example.

I hope this helps? and I hope I'm characterizing this correctly. I don't personally have experience with Five Animals kung fu, but this is how I understand it based on what I have read and seen and discussions I have had.

 

[almost a ghost]

Great explanation by Flying Crane!

 

[bill007]

I think that a student of Prof. William Chow, a Bill Chun Jr teaches a style called Chinese Kempo.

Your correct, Master Chun jr. style is Go Shin Jitsu Kai/Chinese Kempo, I had the chance to train twice with him this year and he is very nice.

 

[Sigung86]

Well done Michael, aka Flying Crane!

Kenpo as I have seen it and understand it today, and probably yesterday, has no real animal style to it, other than perhaps some of the hand forms and stances. A really good reference to this would be Ed Parker's, Secrets of Chinese Karate.

Kenpo is a system/school based on a particular set of methods, applications, philosophy, and strategy. While it is most effective, and generally extremely efficient, it does not incoporate the Chinese Animal methods in any entirety.

I say Chinese Animals, because there are, in fact, a great number more of animal styles than the five that are directly attributed to the Shaolin.

Some styles of Kenpo vary in application. Take me, for example ... When I began way back in the way back, I was learning Tracy Karate (China Hand) which was relatively smooth, but much less circular and speedy in application. At the same time I was studying a Shaolin family system, which was smoother, even more circular, and lined with animal style applications and forms. As a result, my "style" of Kenpo as taught in my school, is a series of methods, applications, phnilosophy, and strategy which may not reflect as well in a strict Kenpo environment. But it works very well and just as effectively as straight EPAK or Tracy method.

Although, it does tend to piss off some others. I was at a seminar this past Summer, and when all the "seniors" were being given introduction and props according to their various ranks, and schools, I was intro'd as, Dan Farmer, a senior Black Belt in "SOME OTHER STYLE"... :rofl:

Pomposity is something else that I suspect Kenpo has picked up along the way, but also not from Kung fu/Gung fu/Chuan fa/.... :angel:

And so it goes...

 

[Flying Crane]

These are sort of subsets, or specific forms developed around the five animals, tiger, dragon, crane, deer, I can't remember the fifth, and they make up only a portion of the complete curriculum of the system. And I think different arts may list the five animals differently.

LEOPARD!!! for crying out loud, I can't believe I forgot that one.

I think sometimes Monkey is substituted for Deer perhaps, in some "5 animals" methods...

 

[Flying Crane]

I was at a seminar this past Summer, and when all the "seniors" were being given introduction and props according to their various ranks, and schools, I was intro'd as, Dan Farmer, a senior Black Belt in "SOME OTHER STYLE"... :rofl:

Pomposity is something else that I suspect Kenpo has picked up along the way, but also not from Kung fu/Gung fu/Chuan fa/.... :angel:

And so it goes...

Ain't it nice to hold a place on equal footing with the red-headed stepchild...

 

[Sapper6]

LEOPARD!!! for crying out loud, I can't believe I forgot that one.

I think sometimes Monkey is substituted for Deer perhaps, in some "5 animals" methods...

i guess it depends on locality and influence, but i've always thought/heard the most common referrenced 5 animals of kung fu were dragon, tiger, snake, crane, and leopard. never have i hard deer mentioned.

however, it would be interested to see a deer form. wonder if it has anything to do with turning up it's whitetail and running away from danger...?

 

[Sigung86]

i guess it depends on locality and influence, but i've always thought/heard the most common referrenced 5 animals of kung fu were dragon, tiger, snake, crane, and leopard. never have i hard deer mentioned.

however, it would be interested to see a deer form. wonder if it has anything to do with turning up it's whitetail and running away from danger...?

I'm thinkin' you'd be not so laughing if you ran across the bear method. Oh ... But there is always the Magnificent Battling Butterfly! :lol:

 

[Sigung86]

Ain't it nice to hold a place on equal footing with the red-headed stepchild...

At least, in that respect, I'm on an equal footing. If, however, you are referring to my current physical predicament... I'm up to my gluteal muscles in an ice storm that has been falling upon me for the past 14 hours. Fortunately, I am well supplied with salami, apple fritters, milk, eggs, and bread (the staples of a Missouri winter storm). My Dishnet satellite dish is still in place on the roof, and the power is still on, as you can see. LOL

 

[Flying Crane]

A good friend of my Sifu is an accomplished sifu of Choy Li Fut. I will ask him about the Five Animals next time I see him, and see if I can get some clarity, at least from his perspective...

 

[Flying Crane]

i guess it depends on locality and influence, but i've always thought/heard the most common referrenced 5 animals of kung fu were dragon, tiger, snake, crane, and leopard. never have i hard deer mentioned.

however, it would be interested to see a deer form. wonder if it has anything to do with turning up it's whitetail and running away from danger...?

Yeah, see, I think it varies from group to group. The interesting thing about Chinese arts that I have come to realize: there ain't just ONE way things are done, even tho it might have the same name.

 

[Flying Crane]

I had a chance to speak with my Sifu's friend who is an accomplished Choy Lay Fut guy. He says that in Choy Lay Fut, the Five Animals is an internal set, incorporating the five different animals together. It is done slowly, kind of like tai chi chuan.

He did indicate that the Five Animals material varies from one art to the next. Some arts have it as external material, and may have separate material for each animal, as well as combined material. I think he also agreed that the animals themselves may be different from one art to another.

I hope this adds something to the picture. It seems pretty clear that nothing is clear. The Five Animals can take many manifestations from system to system. I guess if some of the Kenpo schools claim to have incorporated this material, it is possibly true. One single judgement on what constitutes Five Animals cannot be made.

It would be interesting to hear from someone where their Five Animals in kenpo came from, and how it is manifest. I hope someone steps up and shares...

 

[KempoGuy06]

Ok first and foremost, I love this site. I have learned a lot in the last couple of minutes i have spent reading this thread especially from Flying Crane.

I study Shaolin Kempo Karate. I know that my instructors, instructor learned under GM James Brassard. How far back it goes from there I can not tell you.

As for the way our curriculum is set up, I know the five animals (crane, snake, dragon, leopard and tiger) are taught from the very beginning. Im only an orange belt but I know from talking to the higher ranks the emphasis on the animals is great the higher you climb especially in the forms.

My instuctor also uses the animals when it comes to our sparring. Movements, power, speed etc.

My 2 cents

B