Katas keep them or chuck them ?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper

another question.. why would an instructor be alowed to teach if he/she didn't know the bunkai to the kata?

Sometimes they are not "allowed", and in most cases of the "bogus teacher" they study at one place for a very short time and then make their own group and declare themselves king of the hill.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador



A vote in favor of licensing of instructors? Count me out!

Do you mean like a drivers license issued by the state or some governing body?
Or licensing by your own instructor?

 

[yilishihfu]

Clearly, you have practiced your forms incorrectly for a very long time. You have MEMORIZED them but you do not KNOW them.

Forms are NOT intended to be ways in which we can "express ourselves!" If you want to do that, take up modern jazz dancing.

Fighting "in the ring" isn't even close to actual combat. In REAL combat there are no rules. No referees. Only survival.

While form practice alone is not adequate for the complete development of ocmbative skill, they ARE necessary and a vitally important component of such training. Various combative drills (which include REAL sparring as opposed to much of what we see nowadays) are also necessary.
Of the two, forms are by far the most important.

I suggest you find a good teacher who can explain the truth to you.

 

[sweeper]

Arnisador I don't think that's what I'm talking about (but not quite sure what you mean). I mean it's one thing to say "you can't teach" it's another to say "you aren't ready to teach and if you do it don't do it under this name" you know what I mean

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by sweeper

Arnisador I don't think that's what I'm talking about (but not quite sure what you mean). I mean it's one thing to say "you can't teach" it's another to say "you aren't ready to teach and if you do it don't do it under this name" you know what I mean

I actually understood the post before the same way Arnisador did. I think it may not have been worded properly.

 

[sweeper]

well let me put it this way than, usua;y before someone teaches their instructor (or someone) gives them the green light right?

so why did someone give them the green light?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper


so why did someone give them the green light?

That was my point. Someone most likely didn't.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Do you mean like a drivers license issued by the state or some governing body?

This is what I was referring to--the New York state legislature recently considered this. I would not support it. Instructor's permission is a different matter of course.

 

[Matt Stone]

I was going to respond to Asoka's commentary, but then realized I just don't have the strength to continue banging my head against a brick wall...

His own comments betray him, when he admits that forms have self-defense applications within them, and he belies his own ignorance of forms by saying he knows all the breakdowns of the forms he learned because he figured them out on his own...

I quit. There is no longer any real point in continuing to debate this with him, as he has obviously formed his opinions, closed his mind to the issue, and is so well trained that none of us have enough information to open his mind back up again...

I will just go ahead and continue practicing my inferior martial arts forms, my inferior martial arts defence techniques, and my inferior forms breakdowns...

RyuShiKan - can't make it Saturday (guard duty - lucky me!)... Let me know your schedule beyond that.

:samurai: :tank:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Yiliquan1,

I have to agree.

I think Assoka has accomplished what he set out to................and that is to stir up trouble.
Just as an example, If I went to the section that deals with NHB/UFC and said something similar about their art, can you imagine the reaction I would get..........what other motivation would I have other than making trouble.
How could I possibly qualify my posts as being sincere since I already have a set opinion and am unwilling to change it.......fact is I couldn't.
My question wouldn't be sincere or genuine.
Why the moderators of this BB and others let this kind of crap appear I don't know........since they know it will only make trouble and they will eventually have to come in with fire hoses and cool people down. Maybe that's what they want, nothing like a little controversy to get attention.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Yiliquan1,

I have to agree.

I think Assoka has accomplished what he set out to................and that is to stir up trouble.
Just as an example, If I went to the section that deals with NHB/UFC and said something similar about their art, can you imagine the reaction I would get..........what other motivation would I have other than making trouble.
How could I possibly qualify my posts as being sincere since I already have a set opinion and am unwilling to change it.......fact is I couldn't.
My question wouldn't be sincere or genuine.
Why the moderators of this BB and others let this kind of crap appear I don't know........since they know it will only make trouble and they will eventually have to come in with fire hoses and cool people down. Maybe that's what they want, nothing like a little controversy to get attention.

Hey look bud,if you think I'm trying to cause trouble and you don't like what I post in here then get the hell out of here.I created this particular post for opinions as every one is doing.I gave my opinion and just answering back to questions asked to me or statements I don't agree with,as I've said before in first part of this post,everything here is based on opinion and person's experience if you find anything offensive then don't bother coming in here and bitching about it.No one is forcing you to post or to read the posts.Obviously can't be too bad in here if you keep coming back.So instead of your bitching why don't you just **** off.

I have been doing nothing wrong,I'm reading other people opinions and giving mine as well,no one here is forced to agree with me.I want to hear other people's opinion whether they agree or not.It's interesting to know what other people think.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka


Hey look bud,if you think I'm trying to cause trouble and you don't like what I post in here then get the hell out of here.I created this particular post for opinions as every one is doing.I gave my opinion and just answering back to questions asked to me or statements I don't agree with,as I've said before in first part of this post,everything here is based on opinion and person's experience if you find anything offensive then don't bother coming in here and bitching about it.No one is forcing you to post or to read the posts.Obviously can't be too bad in here if you keep coming back.So instead of your bitching why don't you just **** off.

I have been doing nothing wrong,I'm reading other people opinions and giving mine as well,no one here is forced to agree with me.I want to hear other people's opinion whether they agree or not.It's interesting to know what other people think.

Yeah I can tell by your posts your whole purpose for bringing this discussion topic up was some "enlightening debate" :angel: and nothing more.

 

[Yari]

Everbody is entitled to their meaning, and opionen. But calling each other "names" isn't right.

I don't agree with asoka, but I will defend his right to believe in what he believes in this case.

So lets get back to some constructive arguments!


/Yari

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by sweeper

another question.. why would an instructor be alowed to teach if he/she didn't know the bunkai to the kata?

Very good question and I agree,so why don't you ask the 95% of martial arts instructors out there.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by asoka

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by asoka




Very good question and I agree,so why don't you ask the 95% of martial arts instructors out there?

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I have never found learning karate or any martial art from a book to be useful. I think most arts are too complex and require "hands on" by a good "qualified" teacher to be fully understood. Plus, what do you do if you have a question...........you can't ask a book.


(The reason why I emphasize "qualified" is that there are so many bozos running around these days claiming they are qualified when they aren't and there by giving wrong or at least inaccurate information out)

I meant that I agree some styles practice to look good.I never said all though.

Well here is one thing we actually agree on,that there is no book that can be useful enough to teach complex moves that require a
"hands on"by a good qualified teacher.

The only reason the book may have helped me is because I already knew the katas, just needed to know the bunkai,and could tell by what it says and pictures,and practiced on some friends till I felt comfortable with it and it made sense to me.

Obviously if I didn't know my katas to begin with chances are the book wouldn't have done any good.I don't believe someone can learn any style of martial arts from a book or video,not as much as from an instructor anyways,but that's stating the obvious.

I'm sure we could agree that many instructors don't know the bunkai to the forms,perhaps some do,but not many.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka



I'm sure we could agree that many instructors don't know the bunkai to the forms,perhaps some do,but not many.

I have no problem with someone that doesn't know the bunkai for kata.........and says so to that effect. You can't blame someone for not knowing something if they have never been exposed to it.
It's the guys that claim to know bunkai and don't really, The ones that just pull some goofy technique out of their backside and haven't thought it out well..............the ones that will get you real hurt real quick in a real situation.
I have a major dislike for those guys. They are the ones that give people a false feeling of security.
Kind of like the guy that teaches the latest craze at my gym........."Body Kombat" I think it's called. It so bad it makes Tae-Bo look lethal!
All these woman and even some guys go there and are told that "this will protect you". I just hope they never have to rely on it.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I have no problem with someone that doesn't know the bunkai for kata.........and says so to that effect. You can't blame someone for not knowing something if they have never been exposed to it.
It's the guys that claim to know bunkai and don't really, The ones that just pull some goofy technique out of their backside and haven't thought it out well..............the ones that will get you real hurt real quick in a real situation.
I have a major dislike for those guys. They are the ones that give people a false feeling of security.
Kind of like the guy that teaches the latest craze at my gym........."Body Kombat" I think it's called. It so bad it makes Tae-Bo look lethal!
All these woman and even some guys go there and are told that "this will protect you". I just hope they never have to rely on it.

Ya I know what you mean,I've heard people claim they do kickboxing and aren't afraid to defend themselves now,then you ask them where they took lessons and they mention Tae Bo,that makes me laugh.For one,Tae bo is martial arts in the form of aerobics not the actual martial arts,but people have been mislead to believe that doing those exercises are no different from learning actual martial arts.While the techniques maybe the same,the purpose and the way it is done is different.By people thinking Tae Bo is same as doing karate or kickboxing or any martial arts is basically insulting the M.A as far as I am concerned.

That's like saying apples and oranges taste the same just because they're both fruites.

 

[chufeng]

Asoka,

Bunkai is NOT a matter of "opinion."
It is a matter of knowledge...

If you don't KNOW the actual applications of the movements in your kata...then you are NOT qualified to say that "kata is no good for self-defense."

Seiyu Oyata KNOWS the real bunkai...and can apply it with very painful results (and that's when he's being nice).

Practice does NOT make perfect if one practices wrong...
Correct practice makes perfect...and I think 20 years in martial arts is a good start...

BUT, even the founders of the major systems, after a lifetime of study, admitted that they had much more to learn...I think we would all do well to remember how much we still don't know.

Asoka, you do a disservice to those young impressionable minds who are just beginning and who may actually put stock in your opinion...you shackle them with false ideas about kata training... If you choose to toss aside kata training, that is your right; but don't hamper the development of those who follow in your footsteps...one day, one of your students may show YOU the value of kata training...Our best teachers are often our own students.

:asian:
chufeng