Vital Point Striking in CMA

[Xue Sheng108 25]

So you agree it's for health and everything you know about it basically comes from a Chinese doctor. Yet you disagree that it is for health, and that people should study Chinese medicine to learn about it? Now it's my turn to post a confused face I mean go ahead, you can try to explain this, here or on the other thread. But we are clearly talking about different things, and you are not known to investigate or ask clarifying questions. So our exchange will be limited to you educating me (or not) about the subject. I'm fine with that, I'll take what I can get!

Actually, you may want to reread what i posted because that is not what i said at all. However, if you still don’t get it after a reread i will try and explain it to you in a different way you might get

 

[Appledog51 4]

Actually, you may want to reread what i posted because that is not what i said at all. However, if you still don’t get it after a reread i will try and explain it to you in a different way you might get

Sure, you can explain it, it would be interesting and educational. I like to hear what other people have to say, I like to listen and learn. That's how I got most of what I know. Just listen and learn without any preconceptions.

So what do you mean exactly then, what exactly did you disagree with, why, and what's your take on it?

 

[Xue Sheng108 25]

Sure, you can explain it, it would be interesting and educational. I like to hear what other people have to say, I like to listen and learn. That's how I got most of what I know. Just listen and learn without any preconceptions.

So what do you mean exactly then, what exactly did you disagree with, why, and what's your take on it?

OK, here we go

1) My wife is a TCM Doctor.
2) she uses pressure points to help
3) She says there are pressure points that hurt
4) she knows some tha thurt, but only so she knows what not to put pressure on
5) She says there are pressure points that hurt, that martial artists in China know, that TCM does not

Next

1) My Yang Shifu knows many of these points
2) he was also trained in Acupuncture, by following a shifu, in Hong Kong
3) He also learned these points from his Taijiquan Shifu, Tung Ying Chieh, In Hong Kong
4)Virtually all of few I know, I learned from him

Next

1) Yang Jwing Ming (YMAA) is very good at pressure points and qinna
2) He was a trained Engineer (PhD)
3) His martial arts training was in Taiwan
4) I learned one from him. the elbow points, which my Yang Shifu and my wife know

Additionally

1) had a Xingyiquan Shifu who was big on pressure point strikes with phoenix eye punch
2) he was not a TCM doctor, did not learn TCM. He is a musician
3) He learned these from his Xingyiquan Shifu, who was also not trained in TCM, just Hebei Xingyiquan

So you agree it's for health and everything you know about it basically comes from a Chinese doctor.

So no, I do not agree, that is a plain wrong assumption

Yet you disagree that it is for health, and that people should study Chinese medicine to learn about it?

Again wrong, I do not disagree it is for health, never said I did.

Also never said that people need to learn Chinese Medicine to learn about it. Martial artist in China learn about many of the points, but do not learn Chinese Medicine.

Now it's my turn to post a confused face

Well, you were definitely confused, because you did not understand what I was saying

I mean go ahead, you can try to explain this, here or on the other thread. But we are clearly talking about different things

Nope, we were not, you are misunderstanding what I said here. As for the other thread, I will not go into that here. If you want me to explain that, ask me there

, and you are not known to investigate or ask clarifying questions.

First, that is mildly insulting. But Apparently you have never read or understood many of the things I have posted, because I investigate things all the time. Currently going deep into the internal aspect of taijiquan and Baduanjin, outside of myth and more int the reality of what that actually means

So our exchange will be limited to you educating me (or not) about the subject. I'm fine with that, I'll take what I can get!

Again, insulting. But then some need to insult to feel better about themselves

Now to come back to the point and explain this

As a kind of challenge, I often let students hit my arm. I let them hit my fist or my forearm as hard as they want, and they always hurt their hand.

OK. and..how is any of that applicable

Once I flew off a motorcycle and landed on my side, my elbow hit me in the ribs like a baseball and I couldn't breathe for 30 seconds. Combined with the shock of the initial impact I probably would have passed out if I didn't know how to reverse it and start breathing again.

I have fallen of bicycles, motorcycles (more than once), got third degree burns on my forearm, broke my ankle (3 times), separated my collar bone, had multiple sprains, 3 knee surgeries (Including on replacement), 4 eye surgeries (Including 2 detached retina repairs), and had a tree fall on me (Which my wife did help me get through with acupuncture (note, acupuncture i the feet hurts A LOT). There are more, but that's enough, since non of it is applicable to teh discussion

Also konw reverse breathing

so how is this applicable to the discussion about pressure points?

My teacher did some kidney stone therapy on me and it really hurt, which was surprising but I submit to the pain and I haven't had a kidney stone in 10 years now.

Good, those can be very painful, glad you are better. I never had one, hope I never do

My teacher also told me some things about kungfu.

As have many of my teachers

Over the years I have been involved in a number of rather horrifying accidents, including hitting my head on black ice from a 10 foot drop when I was younger. Probably explains a lot. I also fell on my knee once and severed a tendon and now I have to use qi to stand up or I will fall down.

Yeah me too, and.....

So, if I ask you , what is 2+2, you might say four. But where did this four come from?

Because it is 4 and it comes from Mathematics

I didn't say the word four. Where are you getting "four"?

Don't need to, it is basic math and the words used were to explain it.

So if I told you something about pressure points, it's for real, because I already went through the 2+2 to learn about them.

Nope, sorry, that anology makes no sense at all.

But I was never taught anything about pressure points from a martial arts perspective.

I was, Yang Jwing Ming Was, my Yang Shifu was, and my XIngyiquan Shifu was. There also use to be a guy on MT who was darn good at them too, but his martial arts wsa not Chinese (Japanese and Thai mainly) and he was, and is, a police officer by training. So the fact you weren't does not mean others were not as well.

There are a couple of reasons why. A pretty good one is that pressure points come from TCM and if you don't know TCM you can't really take advantage of pressure points. What I mean is, it's for healing, not hurting. So when you learn about them you shouldn't expect to learn about them for hurting. It's a wu de thing.

Yes and no, What they learn mainly for healing. But they are shown some that hurt so they avoid them. And they are aware that there are points martial artist know that they do not that will hurt you. The ones they learn to avoid are the most dangerous, for various situations, can make someone really sick, cause abortions, etc.

Recently someone posted an image of a confused face. I get it. But not everyone gets to know these things.

Something for another thread, if you want that explained, ask me there, not here

If you wanted to start, you could begin by studying to be a chinese doctor.

I never did study with a Chinese doctor, I am married to one though. But then Yang Jwing Ming, my xingyiquan Shifu and the gentleman I referred to that no longer posts on MT never studied with a Chinese doctor either, and they knew a lot of pressure points that cause you pain. My taijiquan shifu however did train with an acupuncturist in Hong Kong, so maybe some of what he knows came from there...but not all. Additionally, my Wing Chun Shifu seems to know a few too, but I don't think many . He picked those up, I believe mostly from friends in Hong Kong and possibly in Hung Ga, propr to Wing Chun. Not TCM doctor needed..

So, I disagree with your conclusion that to learn pressure points you need to learn from a TCM doctor. And I have herd this very thing from a TCM doctor I Know rather well.

Hopefully that clarifies things

 

[Appledog51 4]

5) She says there are pressure points that hurt, that martial artists in China know, that TCM does not

This is going to be the biggest point of contention. I understand there are different schools of study, to generalize it, but if you're going to talk about nei gong and introspection and the practices of cultivation I simply do not understand how it can be possible that there are points that are known to martial artists but unknown to Chinese medicine. I can understand and accept that from the point of edification certain things are taught in a certain order depending on what you want to learn. But once you get past a certain point, this is a real, practical thing, and the conclusions you reach -- like how 2+2=4 is a conclusion of realization of truth -- drive your progress.

Everyone in my lineage has been a chinese doctor with clinical experiene. Except me. However, I plan to pick up such experience at the earliest possible opportunity. If, after all that, I still don't know what I want to know, I will just go somewhere else to keep learning.

You say there are some things martial artists know that TCM does not. Well, I guess you are right, in a sense, if you want to learn martial arts go to the martial artists!

 

[windwalker099115 145]

@Xue Sheng

A little off from your discussion

It’s interesting that what are called trigger points in Western medicine often show up in similar locations to acupuncture points.

They’re based on very different models — trigger points coming from muscle and fascial dysfunction, and acupuncture from the meridian system (经络 jīng luò).

In some cases, clinicians have treated trigger points using injections like saline or lidocaine, based on palpation and pain referral patterns.

What’s notable is that some of these locations overlap, especially in areas like the neck and shoulders.

Was wondering if you’ve ever head of them,,,

 

[Xue Sheng108 25]

@Xue Sheng

A little off from your discussion

It’s interesting that what are called trigger points in Western medicine often show up in similar locations to acupuncture points.

They’re based on very different models — trigger points coming from muscle and fascial dysfunction, and acupuncture from the meridian system (经络 jīng luò).

In some cases, clinicians have treated trigger points using injections like saline or lidocaine, based on palpation and pain referral patterns.

What’s notable is that some of these locations overlap, especially in areas like the neck and shoulders.

Was wondering if you’ve ever head of them,,,

I have heard if this, never looked into it deeply, but I don’t find is surprising

 

[Xue Sheng108 25]

This is going to be the biggest point of contention. I understand there are different schools of study, to generalize it, but if you're going to talk about nei gong and introspection and the practices of cultivation I simply do not understand how it can be possible that there are points that are known to martial artists but unknown to Chinese medicine. I can understand and accept that from the point of edification certain things are taught in a certain order depending on what you want to learn. But once you get past a certain point, this is a real, practical thing, and the conclusions you reach -- like how 2+2=4 is a conclusion of realization of truth -- drive your progress.

Everyone in my lineage has been a chinese doctor with clinical experiene. Except me. However, I plan to pick up such experience at the earliest possible opportunity. If, after all that, I still don't know what I want to know, I will just go somewhere else to keep learning.

You say there are some things martial artists know that TCM does not. Well, I guess you are right, in a sense, if you want to learn martial arts go to the martial artists!

Your mileage may vary

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

how it can be possible that there are points that are known to martial artists but unknown to Chinese medicine.

I feel the same way. Zhang Sanfeng, an acupuncturist and Shaolin fighter in the early 1300's, found points that were especially vulnerable (especially in tandem) and confirmed his theory on living (temporarily) subjects. TMA vital points were discovered by practitioners in TCM. Up until the beginning of the 1900's, karate masters were schooled in both (Motobu Choki being known for this), the knowledge of injuring and healing being taught hand in hand.

While knowledge of TCM is rare in karate now, and to a lesser extent, vital points, it seems strange that TCM would lose knowledge of such points. What TCM practitioners would not know is how to effectively deliver strikes to those areas in combat.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

As a kind of challenge, I often let students hit my arm. I let them hit my fist or my forearm as hard as they want, and they always hurt their hand.

Once I flew off a motorcycle and landed on my side, my elbow hit me in the ribs like a baseball and I couldn't breathe for 30 seconds. Combined with the shock of the initial impact I probably would have passed out if I didn't know how to reverse it and start breathing again.

My teacher did some kidney stone therapy on me and it really hurt, which was surprising but I submit to the pain and I haven't had a kidney stone in 10 years now.

My teacher also told me some things about kungfu.

Over the years I have been involved in a number of rather horrifying accidents, including hitting my head on black ice from a 10 foot drop when I was younger. Probably explains a lot. I also fell on my knee once and severed a tendon and now I have to use qi to stand up or I will fall down.

So, if I ask you , what is 2+2, you might say four. But where did this four come from? I didn't say the word four. Where are you getting "four"? So if I told you something about pressure points, it's for real, because I already went through the 2+2 to learn about them. But I was never taught anything about pressure points from a martial arts perspective. There are a couple of reasons why. A pretty good one is that pressure points come from TCM and if you don't know TCM you can't really take advantage of pressure points. What I mean is, it's for healing, not hurting. So when you learn about them you shouldn't expect to learn about them for hurting. It's a wu de thing.

Recently someone posted an image of a confused face. I get it. But not everyone gets to know these things.

If you wanted to start, you could begin by studying to be a chinese doctor.

TCM press/nail targets that either sit or lay down, not very wude in my view.

 

[Appledog51 4]

If you dig your thumb on your forearm 1 inch from your elbow joint and right between your dark skin and light skin (曲池穴), you can feel big difference than pressing any other point on your arm.

View attachment 34037

 

[Same Trick60 11]

This pressure point stuff and most certainly so too acupuncture that’s nowadays called TCM with great probability was learned and refined from practice like this

Tameshigiri on prisoners - Bing

the early “TCM doctors”/ martial artists may have used prisoners of war and criminals poking them with sharp objects in order to perfect their poking with sharp objects on human bodies.

.