Vital Point Striking in CMA

[isshinryuronin5 4]

I know that anatomical vital points have been studied in China for well over 1000 years and by 1500 had made their way into CMA (dian xue/dim mak) These are strikes aimed against nerve nexi, lymphatic and blood flow, and organs to incapacitate or kill. This knowledge was passed on to early jiu-jitsu and karate where it's known as kyusho (along with Chinese medicine). These were major areas of study in those arts up to a century ago but nowadays seems all but gone from most styles (Naha-te karate styles and aki-juitsu perhaps still teaching it the most). Kata forms theoretically still contain some of this knowledge but after so many years of neglect it's often hard to find such application. Certain karate techniques such as finger thrusts, toe kick and single knuckle punch were designed to take advantage of small vital points.

My question to you more advanced CMA practitioners is to what extent have you been taught this element and how big a part does it currently play in your art?

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

It's so interest that for woman self-defense, the 8 strikes and 8 non-strike is the opposite of the 8 strikes and 8 non-strike defined for man.

八打八不打”口诀： 一打眉头双眼，不打太阳为首； 二打唇上人中，不打正中咽喉； 三打穿腮耳门，不打中心两壁； 四打背后骨缝，不打两肋太极； 五打肋内肺腑，不打海底撩阴； 六打撩阴高骨，不打两肾对心； 七打鹤膝虎骨，不打尾闾风府； 八打破骨千金，不打两耳扇风；

“Eight Strikes, Eight Non‑Strikes” Formula:

1.
Strike: the brow and both eyes
Do not strike: the temples, which are foremost among forbidden points

2.
Strike: the philtrum above the lips
Do not strike: the center of the throat

3.
Strike: through the cheek and the “ear gate”
Do not strike: the central area between the two sides

4.
Strike: the gaps between the spinal bones from behind
Do not strike: the two ribs where the “Taiji” point lies

5.
Strike: inside the ribs toward the viscera
Do not strike: the “sea‑bottom” (perineal) area

6.
Strike: the “lifting‑yin” point and the high pelvic bone
Do not strike: the two kidneys opposite the heart

7.
Strike: the crane’s knee and the tiger’s bone (shin/knee structures)
Do not strike: the tailbone and the “Wind Mansion” point at the base of the skull

8.
Strike: to break bone — worth a thousand gold (i.e., decisive disabling strikes)
Do not strike: both ears with a fanning blow

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

八打八不打”口诀： 一打眉头双眼，不打太阳为首； 二打唇上人中，不打正中咽喉； 三打穿腮耳门，不打中心两壁； 四打背后骨缝，不打两肋太极； 五打肋内肺腑，不打海底撩阴； 六打撩阴高骨，不打两肾对心； 七打鹤膝虎骨，不打尾闾风府； 八打破骨千金，不打两耳扇风；

“Eight Strikes, Eight Non‑Strikes” Formula:

1.
Strike: the brow and both eyes
Do not strike: the temples, which are foremost among forbidden points

2.
Strike: the philtrum above the lips
Do not strike: the center of the throat

3.
Strike: through the cheek and the “ear gate”
Do not strike: the central area between the two sides

4.
Strike: the gaps between the spinal bones from behind
Do not strike: the two ribs where the “Taiji” point lies

5.
Strike: inside the ribs toward the viscera
Do not strike: the “sea‑bottom” (perineal) area

6.
Strike: the “lifting‑yin” point and the high pelvic bone
Do not strike: the two kidneys opposite the heart

7.
Strike: the crane’s knee and the tiger’s bone (shin/knee structures)
Do not strike: the tailbone and the “Wind Mansion” point at the base of the skull

8.
Strike: to break bone — worth a thousand gold (i.e., decisive disabling strikes)
Do not strike: both ears with a fanning blow

Why not strike at the "non-strike" targets?

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

Why not strike at the "non-strike" targets?

Those "non-strike" targets can be used to kill.

In street, if you kill your opponent, you will go to jail for it. In battlefield, if you don't kill your opponent, your opponent will kill you.

When my teacher was visiting Morocco, the king Hussen's bodyguard challenged him. My teacher struck on the challenger's kidney area (6. Do not strike: the two kidneys opposite the heart) and dropped hm in from of the King Hussen.

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

Those "non-strike" targets can be used to kill.

In street, if you kill your opponent, you will go to jail for it. In battlefield, if you don't kill your opponent, your opponent will kill you.

When my teacher was visiting Morocco, the king Hussen's bodyguard challenged him. My teacher struck on the challenger's kidney area (6. Do not strike: the two kidneys opposite the heart) and dropped hm in from of the King Hussen.

The Bubishi lists "Seven Restricted Locations":

1. Top of the skull
2. Third cervical vetebrae (back of neck)
3. Space between the mastoid and ear
4. Space above the sternum (lower throat)
5. Tip of floating rib
6. Testicles
7. Heart

Some similarity, which is no surprise. I'd guess that these forbidden areas were encouraged after the time of widespread lethal military action and meant for civilian self-defense. Were the 8 allowed areas, dim mak and qi meridians part of your formal training?

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

Were the 8 allowed areas, dim mak and qi meridians part of your formal training?

CMA used to include

1. Pressure point attack,
2. Striking (include kick/punch),
3. Throwing,
4. Joint locking.

After the "pressure point attack" was missing in our previous generation, the CMA now includes:

1. Kicking,
2. Punching,
3. Throwing,
4. Joint locking.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

Wuxing(five elements) tongbeiquan is quite heavy on finger and one knuckle striking, targeting eyes, throat , solar plexus, ribs up near armpit and points on chest. It emphasizes toe kicks but unlike karate shoes are worn so it’s tip of the shoe rather than toe

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

I’d love to see a vital point expert strike a ‘killing point’ and see what happens.

What do they claim striking ‘nerve nexi, lymphatic and blood flow’ actually does?

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

I’d love to see a vital point expert strike a ‘killing point’ and see what happens.

Didn't you see the end of Kill Bill 2?

What do they claim striking ‘nerve nexi, lymphatic and blood flow’ actually does?

Aside from hurting a lot:

To the nerve bundle to the thigh it can paralyze it for a few seconds and impair function for several minutes. To the medulla/top of the neck it can render you unconscious.

Not sure exactly how attacks to the lymphatic system work, ashamed to say (maybe I once did). There is a story about Aragake Ankichi toe kicking an opponent in the armpit causing his death three days later. Ankichi himself died a young man and though unheard of by many, was an influential master who left his mark on karate history. Had he lived longer I think he would be as revered as one of the giants of the art.

Interrupting blood flow to the brain, a strike to the side of the neck (carotid artery) can cause dizziness or unconsciousness. I have experienced this myself.

None of these things work unless the appropriate weapon is very accurately used.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

Didn't you see the end of Kill Bill 2?

Oh goodness I did! Proof positive!

Aside from hurting a lot:

I think that’s how these strikes work.

To the nerve bundle to the thigh it can paralyze it for a few seconds and impair function for several minutes. To the medulla/top of the neck it can render you unconscious.

Good luck striking the medulla oblongata! Yes, again it’s the pain, but striking anywhere on the body hard enough will produce incapacitating pain, won’t it?

Not sure exactly how attacks to the lymphatic system work, ashamed to say (maybe I once did). There is a story about Aragake Ankichi toe kicking an opponent in the armpit causing his death three days later.

Stories… I once caught a fish, this big!

Interrupting blood flow to the brain, a strike to the side of the neck (carotid artery) can cause dizziness or unconsciousness. I have experienced this myself.

Ah that’s striking the carotid sinus, at the bifurcation of the common- into the external and internal carotid artery, innervated by the glossopharyngeal nerve (CNIX). Striking it stimulates CNIX, the medulla thinks that means the blood pressure has systemically increased (which it hasn’t), and it compensates by markedly reducing heart rate and dilating arterioles thus massively dropping the blood pressure resulting in reduce flow of oxygenated blood to the brain -> dizziness/unconsciousness! It not directly interrupting blood flow and wouldn’t work if you struck above/below the carotid sinus.

None of these things work unless the appropriate weapon is very accurately used.

In the heat of messy, scrappy combat that might being very hit and miss. When we were young men, we’d punch the side of the neck of a volunteer dojo mate, in various ways to see if we could produce unconsciousness; we never could so I wonder if surprise (the unseen punch) is a big factor. Ahhhh, the good ol’ days…

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

I’m convinced this is why the tougher styles of Karate, like Isshin Ryu and other Okinawan schools, train to produce devastating single punches. The overwhelming pain from them induces stunning and even unconsciousness!

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

but striking anywhere on the body hard enough will produce incapacitating pain, won’t it?

If you dig your thumb on your forearm 1 inch from your elbow joint and right between your dark skin and light skin (曲池穴), you can feel big difference than pressing any other point on your arm.

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

I’m convinced this is why the tougher styles of Karate, like Isshin Ryu and other Okinawan schools, train to produce devastating single punches.

This view is more applicable I think to the "one strike, one kill" mindset of Japanese karate (Samurai mentality?) or the physical overpowering of kyoshukan, IMO. This is not the main focus of Okinawan karate which generally favors progressive combos to neutralize the opponent's counters, get close-in and set up the finishing strike - more like Mohammad Ali than George Foreman.

 

[drop bear115 54]

I’d love to see a vital point expert strike a ‘killing point’ and see what happens.

What do they claim striking ‘nerve nexi, lymphatic and blood flow’ actually does?

It also kind of needs to be fighting. There are reports of vital strike guys just sucker punching people in seminars.

Which anyone can kind of do.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

Im not sure which of the two world wide acclaimed combative masters John Gilbey or Robert Smith that mention that correlation of time of day and points on body is of outmost importance to where place the strike of death to have that effect.
Whoever of the two, the writing about it was to do on the topic of Chinese martial arts .

 

[Same Trick60 11]

If you dig your thumb on your forearm 1 inch from your elbow joint and right between your dark skin and light skin (曲池穴), you can feel big difference than pressing any other point on your arm.

View attachment 34037

Yes that’s an important point in karate, the Karate technique Shoto-uke((knife hand block) that’s not a block at all but a grab with one hand on that point on the opponents arm while the ”knife hand blocking” hand strike the main artery on opponents neck.
(Don’t watch any wado-ryu videos if your searching this on YouTube, that branch of karate got the shoto-uke wrong )

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

Im not sure which of the two world wide acclaimed combative masters John Gilbey or Robert Smith that mention that correlation of time of day and points on body is of outmost importance to where place the strike of death to have that effect.

The theory of shichen dates back about 600 years, passed on by Daoist priest Wu Liuyuan, and is based on a 12-hour cycle of blood flow with twelve 2 hr. periods named for the Chinese zodiac. During each of these periods a particular organ or part of the body (meridians) is more vulnerable to attack (or healing). The time of the Rat (11pm-1am) best for striking the gall bladder, the Snake (9-11am) for the spleen and so forth. I don't buy into it but allow a slim chance there may be some basis for it.

 

[Xue Sheng108 25]

Use to be someone on MT years ago that was fairly proficient at point strikes. But he has not posted here in years.

One of my Xingyiquan teachers like them, and trained us to use a phoenix eye fist. But we did not get into it much.

However, some of the claimed effects of these points is not exactly correct. Learned that from my wife, a TCM Doc from Beijing.

Example

Spoiler: Spoiler alert

the point Jet Li sticks a needle in the bad guys neck at the end of kiss of the dragon, it will not kill you, just make you very sick

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

I know that anatomical vital points have been studied in China for well over 1000 years and by 1500 had made their way into CMA (dian xue/dim mak) These are strikes aimed against nerve nexi, lymphatic and blood flow, and organs to incapacitate or kill. This knowledge was passed on to early jiu-jitsu and karate where it's known as kyusho (along with Chinese medicine). These were major areas of study in those arts up to a century ago but nowadays seems all but gone from most styles (Naha-te karate styles and aki-juitsu perhaps still teaching it the most). Kata forms theoretically still contain some of this knowledge but after so many years of neglect it's often hard to find such application. Certain karate techniques such as finger thrusts, toe kick and single knuckle punch were designed to take advantage of small vital points.

My question to you more advanced CMA practitioners is to what extent have you been taught this element and how big a part does it currently play in your art?

Certain strikes on certain points can certainly hurt more. If done correctly some can cause temporary dysfunction of the particular limb or area. In my experience, some of them work well on one person and have no effect or negligible effects on others. It’s good to know where they are and how to properly access them, but in general it doesn’t change the way I do things. I don’t believe it’s magical. I’m a big fan of targeting ear lobes for a hook, back of neck for whatever, taint for kicks, thumbs for joint manipulation, single knuckle for eye, temple, throat etc. Now that said, I have been dropped to the floor by a couple of these points when struck or contacted by three different Sifu. I don’t claim this level of expertise, but it is a real possibility for some people, some of the time. Dr Yang can certainly create a shocking amount of pain instantly with very little effort. My Sifu could temporarily paralyze a leg with a thumb strike to the upper quad/ hip flexor area. I know a tricky and dangerous choke that uses cuffing and the first thumb knuckle. Plenty of hand ruining techniques….

 

[Fungus104 2]

My Sifu could temporarily paralyze a leg with a thumb strike to the upper quad/ hip flexor area.

I've hade the fortune/putluck a couple of times in sparring with hitting spinning heel on that nerve spot. The first time I was surprised myself as it wasnt on purpose! And the opponent was not happy with it.

The best setup is to make them think you are aiming for the head, and their arms go up and then downard to the hip. The opponent immediately cant walk, but it lasts only for some minutes so no major harm done. It's spectactular and usually surprising, and it does not need to be hard.

l Iike to aim for it (but with low force), but the hit-rate is low. As I have trouble with headlevel kicks, that spot is always where i often aim spinning heels, unless its the lower thigh. the heel is quite large so the error margin to hig the nerve is probably +/- 2cm or so.

I think there is a corresponding nerves join for that arm in the shoulder area. all these joints one can find out for yourself if you poke aroung on yourself, when you hit the right spot you feel it sqeeuzes the nerve. Then imagine a hard knuckle strike there and you can imagine.

We dont learn these pressure points in kyokushin curriculum, but I like to expeeriment with them on my own. No reason to let a style limite experimentation.