Issuing school Certs if Kukkiwon

[dortiz]

Fun facts:

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp#19

Article 19 : Sanctions If any of the following violations are committed, the
violator shall be sanctioned by expulsion, deprivation of Dan certificates
and/or suspension of memberships.
(1) Alteration or disqualification of Dan certificates
(2) Dan promotion testing executed by unauthorized persons
(3) Issuing Dan certificates by the name of own instructors or Member
National Association

 

[dancingalone]

Revenue driven? Certainly there are a number of noted instructors within KKW and without who have the gravitas to issue certificates purely upon their own name. Arguably if they were one of the examiners, their own certificate is every bit as good as an organizational one and maybe even better.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It's all about the Benjamins.

Daniel

 

[d1jinx]

Thats in Korea.

They cant do anything about it elsewhere. Thats the big deal about the U.S. We do what we want. They realize here, that it is common to have school DANS, but they were trying to fight HARD against Orgs such as USAT from issuing DANS. Nows the big push to try and set a foot here... hence USTC/KKW USA. It is never more evident that in thier excuse to allow 1st and 2nd dans do the KKW master instructor license course.


Or could they mean fradulentley issuing dans in someones name or org. Anotherwords, Joe the 1st dan is giving out Dan certs in his instructors name or fake certs from different Orgs

 

[Archtkd]

I think this is also a "buyer beware," issue. If students are being provided with dan certificates issued by individual masters and GMs, they need to know that and realize it might be difficult for them to transfer to other schools. There are many dojangs out there -- mine included -- which will not recognize dan certification issued by an individual master or grandmaster. I recognize Kukkiwon certification and will also recognize dan certfiication from some organizations that I know.

 

[dancingalone]

I think this is also a "buyer beware," issue. If students are being provided with dan certificates issued by individual masters and GMs, they need to know that and realize it might be difficult for them to transfer to other schools. There are many dojangs out there -- mine included -- which will not recognize dan certification issued by an individual master or grandmaster. I recognize Kukkiwon certification and will also recognize dan certfiication from some organizations that I know.

I agree there's some benefit there, but I believe it overstated. Rank transferability is largely self-selecting. You can transfer into a KKW school with your KKW certificate because you by definition have studied the KKW material. Surely no ITF person would expect to transfer into a KKW school intact since their curriculum will undoubtedly be different, and vice versa?

At least in my area, the only people that follow KKW guidelines are KKW people. There are no independents that 'ape' the KKW curriculum so the problem of school certificates and rank transferability never comes up.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think this is also a "buyer beware," issue

So long as the students are told up front that it is a school certificate, I see no issue.

If students are being provided with dan certificates issued by individual masters and GMs, they need to know that and realize it might be difficult for them to transfer to other schools.

I guess that it depends on what you mean by transfer. Anyone can pretty much transfer into any school simply by signing up, but their rank will likely not transfer. Some schools will evaluate the student and rank them accordingly. Others will allow them to retain their rank but not allow them to advance until they have learned everything up to and including what that rank requires in that system.

There are many dojangs out there -- mine included -- which will not recognize dan certification issued by an individual master or grandmaster. I recognize Kukkiwon certification and will also recognize dan certfiication from some organizations that I know.

With regards to these other organizations that you know, is it a straight transfer of rank based upon similarity of curriculum or do you evaluate the student first?

Personally, I think that portability of rank is vastly overstated. 90% of those who start a martial art quit either at blackbelt or before. Some quit to start another MA, in which case portability of rank is not an issue, while most just quit having either achieved their goal or having moved on to other things.

Of that remaining ten percent of those who do not quit, only a small percentage really needs the portability, generally because of moving or because of having some kind of falling out with their current school. The rest either just stay with the school they have been at or open one of their own, or after many years, branch out into other arts, in which case rank portability ceases to be an issue.

My numbers, by the way, are approximations based on personal observation and what others have told me. No hard science to back them up, so I certainly could be wrong.

Realistically, I think that most schools do some kind of evaluation of a student who claims to be ranked as a black belt from another org in the same art (unless the owner is just that greedy for testing fees). Practically, sticking a black belt in with a bunch of white belts can be a recipe for trouble (I have seen more than my share of KKW BB's who do not have the maturity that one expects of a black belt), or it can simply turn off the new student who will then take his dollars elsewhere; if he has to start over, he may as well learn a new art and then go on B-shido and talk about what a crock TKD is.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Well there can be problems when schools issue their own certs. We had a girl come from another school as a 2nd Dan BB. All was good until she wanted to compete at a USAT event. She had no cert that could be verified as the cert she had was just issued by the school she use to attend. So she had to test for her 1st Dan with us and in essence got demosted. She was not to upset (not at all) by the so called demotion, she was just upset that she was duped by her old school. She had no ideal that her rank and cert were not valid anywhere but in her old school.

The funny thing is that her first instructor was a KKW 1st Dan and was working towards getting promoted to reach 4th Dan to be able to issue KKW certs. I just found it funny that he promoted a student to 2nd Dan even though he was not even a 2nd or even higher Dan. He basiclly told her she was better than him...ha ha ha.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well there can be problems when schools issue their own certs. We had a girl come from another school as a 2nd Dan BB. All was good until she wanted to compete at a USAT event. She had no cert that could be verified as the cert she had was just issued by the school she use to attend. So she had to test for her 1st Dan with us and in essence got demosted. She was not to upset (not at all) by the so called demotion, she was just upset that she was duped by her old school. She had no ideal that her rank and cert were not valid anywhere but in her old school.

What a rotten situation.

Absolutely, if you are not issuing an organizational rank, you need to tell your students. I am well aware that my hapkido and kumdo certs are essentially worthless outside of my school, which is fine by me. And my GM was entirely up front about this as well.

The funny thing is that her first instructor was a KKW 1st Dan and was working towards getting promoted to reach 4th Dan to be able to issue KKW certs. I just found it funny that he promoted a student to 2nd Dan even though he was not even a 2nd or even higher Dan. He basiclly told her she was better than him...ha ha ha.

Guy sounds rather dishonest. I would gather that he was hoping that all of his black belts would stay with him long enough for him to be able to get his fourth dan and then start registering them.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

What a rotten situation.

Absolutely, if you are not issuing an organizational rank, you need to tell your students. I am well aware that my hapkido and kumdo certs are essentially worthless outside of my school, which is fine by me. And my GM was entirely up front about this as well.


Guy sounds rather dishonest. I would gather that he was hoping that all of his black belts would stay with him long enough for him to be able to get his fourth dan and then start registering them.

Daniel

Yeah but I suppect that this sort of thing happens alot. With how some master want to hold on to student and not help them get their own schools I guess many just leave and try to start their own school with some major pit falls in front of them that they may not even think about. Like issuing certs.

I really don't know why the other guy was in the situation he was in but you are right he should be up front about it.

 

[terryl965]

I do not put alot into certificates anymore, mainly because only a few really need the KKW certification for international competition. I do explain to all my student what benefits cames from having a regular house cert. vs. a AAU cert and what a KKW cert means down the road. It is solely up to them which one they want and desire.

 

[msmitht]

Thats in Korea.

They cant do anything about it elsewhere. Thats the big deal about the U.S. We do what we want. They realize here, that it is common to have school DANS, but they were trying to fight HARD against Orgs such as USAT from issuing DANS. Nows the big push to try and set a foot here... hence USTC/KKW USA. It is never more evident that in thier excuse to allow 1st and 2nd dans do the KKW master instructor license course.


Or could they mean fradulentley issuing dans in someones name or org. Anotherwords, Joe the 1st dan is giving out Dan certs in his instructors name or fake certs from different Orgs

They are allowing 1st and 2nd dans into the course because they need more attendee's to make the quota. Not enough interest out there right now...or not enough people know about it.

 

[Archtkd]

One of the most interesting thing I've found about many WTF style masters and even GMs who loudly condemn Kukkiwon and claim its certificates are useless are themselves Kukkiwon certified and sometimes proudly state so in marketing materials.

 

[Archtkd]

They are allowing 1st and 2nd dans into the course because they need more attendee's to make the quota. Not enough interest out there right now...or not enough people know about it.

Good point. Is it a USTC marketing problem? I've data that shows the U.S had a total of 1,052 people with 4th Dan and 372 with 5th Dan registered with the Kukkiwon in 2001. I'd think those numbers have since grown larger, which provides the USTC a good pool of Kukkiwon master (4th dan and up) instructor certification applicants.

For comparison, South Korea had 27,311 people with 4th dan and 9,862 with 5th dans in 2001 registered with the Kukkiwon. My home country Kenya had only 9 people with 4th dans and nobody with 5th dan or above. Worldwide there were 30,611 people with 4th dans and 11,042 with 5th dans registered with the Kukkiwon in 2001.

 

[dortiz]

"One of the most interesting thing I've found about many WTF style masters and even GMs who loudly condemn Kukkiwon and claim its certificates are useless are themselves Kukkiwon certified and sometimes proudly state so in marketing materials."

Classic! Here I was asking that my son get his rank through Kukkiwon while G.M. asked why his ranking was not good enough.
Literally standing under his Kukkiwon Certificate hanging above and next to his flyers all stating such??

Oh well

 

[d1jinx]

Its all about power and control. If the GM issues out KKW dans to his students, the day will come when they dont need him and his cash flow dries up. As long as they have something that others cant get, they'll keep going back.

I had a Korean GM who would gladly promote anyone willing to pay and give out his schools cert. But he would only allow a select few to get their KKW and wouldn't honor other BB from outside the school without one.

go figure.

 

[Miles]

Its all about power and control. If the GM issues out KKW dans to his students, the day will come when they dont need him and his cash flow dries up. As long as they have something that others cant get, they'll keep going back.

I believe this is short-sighted thinking. In my view (FWIW!), I want my students to be better than me and have as many advantages as possible. I don't have a school certificate, if someone passes their test, they get a KKW and a CDK certificate.

My senior students attended the KKW Course in Chicago and one of them has since received his 4th dan KKW and is setting up a program at a homeless shelter. I want to encourage my folks to become instructors in the art that has done so much for me (and them!). I want them to have a good relationship with the KKW and the CDK.

If the instructor is focused on himself/herself rather than the art, how does the art expand?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I agree there's some benefit there, but I believe it overstated. Rank transferability is largely self-selecting. You can transfer into a KKW school with your KKW certificate because you by definition have studied the KKW material. Surely no ITF person would expect to transfer into a KKW school intact since their curriculum will undoubtedly be different, and vice versa?

At least in my area, the only people that follow KKW guidelines are KKW people. There are no independents that 'ape' the KKW curriculum so the problem of school certificates and rank transferability never comes up.

Very well put. My rank would not mean anything at a KKW school and that doesnt bother me in the slightest. I have not studied the KKW criteria , I couldnt do a taegek form to save myself (we only do palgwe) , we dont spar olympic style and most people at my school wouldnt even know what the KKW is, so I have no problem with my rank not being transferable to another club just as a KKW trained guy will not be able to transfer their rank to my club. I think sometimes far too much emphasis is put on being "affiliated' with some larger organisation.

 

[Twin Fist]

I had a Korean GM who would gladly promote anyone willing to pay and give out his schools cert. But he would only allow a select few to get their KKW and wouldn't honor other BB from outside the school without one.

go figure.

and this is why the KKW makes me want to vomit...

and BTW, on those rare occasions where you have to change schools, how about using your technique to verify your rank instead of some worthless paper?

if you got the kicks and punches to back it up, that ought to be good enough

 

[Twin Fist]

i agree there's some benefit there, but i believe it overstated. Rank transferability is largely self-selecting. You can transfer into a kkw school with your kkw certificate because you by definition have studied the kkw material. Surely no itf person would expect to transfer into a kkw school intact since their curriculum will undoubtedly be different, and vice versa?

At least in my area, the only people that follow kkw guidelines are kkw people. There are no independents that 'ape' the kkw curriculum so the problem of school certificates and rank transferability never comes up.

qfmft