Kukkiwon Benefits

[Raistlin]

Hi All,

There has been a lot of discussion lately about Kukkiwon certification. I have been a part of an independent organization for the past 37 years. Although we are small, we have extremely high standards. I suppose because we are small we are able to better control the quality of belt promotions we issue. This is not meant as a Kukkiwon bashing thread, they are the biggest MA org in the world. They do have some fantastic athletes, they appear to have some great programs and resources for its members. However, it is the only organization I'm aware of that will issue black belts after only 2 years of training. Most traditional Korean, Japanese and Chinese arts that I'm aware of require a minimum of 4-5 years to earn a 1st Dan. Additionally, some of the sloppiest black belts I have ever met in my martial arts career have been Kukkiwon certified black belts. This is one of the reasons I have stayed clear of the Kukkiwon. I have not wanted to be associated with an organization that issues black belts after only 2 years of training and that produces such sloppy black belts (I'm not saying all Kukkiwon black belts are sloppy).

Other than having the opportunity to compete in the Olympics, are there any tangible benefits? We aren't interested in the Olympic style of fighting as we train to punch to the head and practice sweeping. We compete in the open Karate and kickboxing competitions. I don't view it as a place to receive "legitimate" promotions for the reasons I listed above. Just because I pay an annual fee to an organization to issue me a certificate from someone I've never met does not make it "legitimate" to me. To me, legitimate promotions come from people who know you, who have proven themselves as martial artists, etc.

Obviously there are some great resources for helping instructors structure classes, help in business strategies etc. as do most organizations out there. Why all the hype? Am I missing something? Is it just because they are so big that people view their certificates as "legitimate"?

Again, I'm not trying to slam the Kukkiwon, they do have some fantastic martial artists and a lot of great things going for them. I've just met too many terribly sloppy Kukkiwon certified schools that to me make the thought of a Kukkiwon certificate being "legitimate" as quite laughable.

I'm hoping someone can help shed some light on why anyone would want to seek a membership with them other than the Olympics. BTW, I have the exact same opinion of the ITF as well, but they don't have the Olympics as incentive.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Hi All,

There has been a lot of discussion lately about Kukkiwon certification. I have been a part of an independent organization for the past 37 years. Although we are small, we have extremely high standards. I suppose because we are small we are able to better control the quality of belt promotions we issue. This is not meant as a Kukkiwon bashing thread, they are the biggest MA org in the world. They do have some fantastic athletes, they appear to have some great programs and resources for its members. However, it is the only organization I'm aware of that will issue black belts after only 2 years of training. Most traditional Korean, Japanese and Chinese arts that I'm aware of require a minimum of 4-5 years to earn a 1st Dan. Additionally, some of the sloppiest black belts I have ever met in my martial arts career have been Kukkiwon certified black belts. This is one of the reasons I have stayed clear of the Kukkiwon. I have not wanted to be associated with an organization that issues black belts after only 2 years of training and that produces such sloppy black belts (I'm not saying all Kukkiwon black belts are sloppy).

Other than having the opportunity to compete in the Olympics, are there any tangible benefits? We aren't interested in the Olympic style of fighting as we train to punch to the head and practice sweeping. We compete in the open Karate and kickboxing competitions. I don't view it as a place to receive "legitimate" promotions for the reasons I listed above. Just because I pay an annual fee to an organization to issue me a certificate from someone I've never met does not make it "legitimate" to me. To me, legitimate promotions come from people who know you, who have proven themselves as martial artists, etc.

Obviously there are some great resources for helping instructors structure classes, help in business strategies etc. as do most organizations out there. Why all the hype? Am I missing something? Is it just because they are so big that people view their certificates as "legitimate"?

Again, I'm not trying to slam the Kukkiwon, they do have some fantastic martial artists and a lot of great things going for them. I've just met too many terribly sloppy Kukkiwon certified schools that to me make the thought of a Kukkiwon certificate being "legitimate" as quite laughable.

I'm hoping someone can help shed some light on why anyone would want to seek a membership with them other than the Olympics. BTW, I have the exact same opinion of the ITF as well, but they don't have the Olympics as incentive.

You can get a Kukkiwon black belt in one year in Korea. As an instructor, you can make your students train as long as you want before black belt. If you want it to take 20 years to get a 1st Dan, you can do it. Generally speaking, Kukkiwon allows qualified instructors to set their own performance standards and trusts them to know what they’re doing.


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[Gerry Seymour]

Hi All,

There has been a lot of discussion lately about Kukkiwon certification. I have been a part of an independent organization for the past 37 years. Although we are small, we have extremely high standards. I suppose because we are small we are able to better control the quality of belt promotions we issue. This is not meant as a Kukkiwon bashing thread, they are the biggest MA org in the world. They do have some fantastic athletes, they appear to have some great programs and resources for its members. However, it is the only organization I'm aware of that will issue black belts after only 2 years of training. Most traditional Korean, Japanese and Chinese arts that I'm aware of require a minimum of 4-5 years to earn a 1st Dan. Additionally, some of the sloppiest black belts I have ever met in my martial arts career have been Kukkiwon certified black belts. This is one of the reasons I have stayed clear of the Kukkiwon. I have not wanted to be associated with an organization that issues black belts after only 2 years of training and that produces such sloppy black belts (I'm not saying all Kukkiwon black belts are sloppy).

Other than having the opportunity to compete in the Olympics, are there any tangible benefits? We aren't interested in the Olympic style of fighting as we train to punch to the head and practice sweeping. We compete in the open Karate and kickboxing competitions. I don't view it as a place to receive "legitimate" promotions for the reasons I listed above. Just because I pay an annual fee to an organization to issue me a certificate from someone I've never met does not make it "legitimate" to me. To me, legitimate promotions come from people who know you, who have proven themselves as martial artists, etc.

Obviously there are some great resources for helping instructors structure classes, help in business strategies etc. as do most organizations out there. Why all the hype? Am I missing something? Is it just because they are so big that people view their certificates as "legitimate"?

Again, I'm not trying to slam the Kukkiwon, they do have some fantastic martial artists and a lot of great things going for them. I've just met too many terribly sloppy Kukkiwon certified schools that to me make the thought of a Kukkiwon certificate being "legitimate" as quite laughable.

I'm hoping someone can help shed some light on why anyone would want to seek a membership with them other than the Olympics. BTW, I have the exact same opinion of the ITF as well, but they don't have the Olympics as incentive.

A black belt only means what it means within a group. If the next guy’s black belt takes longer than yours, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with a BB from you. It just means that BB means something different than theirs means. 2 years, 4 years, 10 years. Whatever.

 

[Dirty Dog]

One reason KKW rank is popular is BECAUSE it's popular. I have long recommended it to our students who expect to move away (for college or work or whatever) simply because they're more likely to find a KKW school than another MDK school.

 

[skribs]

If you get a black belt in a KKW school, you go to any other KKW school and they have to recognize your black belt. You get a black belt at an independent school, and then go to another school, and they could say, "that's nice, but here you're a white belt."

 

[Flying Crane]

If you feel that your standards are higher than the Kukkiwon, and you are happy with the results your teaching is getting, you feel your students are highly skilled and capable (especially when compared to most Kukkiwon examples that you have seen) and you aren’t interested in Olympic TKD, then perhaps becoming affiliated with and ranked through the Kukkiwon is not for you. It sounds to me like you already know the answer.

I personally have never been a big fan of big corporate oversight and organizations when it comes to martial arts. I don’t feel it is necessary. I prefer the independent schools, or if there is membership in a larger organization, it is loose enough to not become overbearing.

As far as your students’ rank being recognized if they ever move away and join a different school, I say: so what? If their training has been solid and their skills are genuine, that will be recognized quickly in a new school. When you join a new school and start as a white belt, that is only in the context of that new school. Your ranking in your previous school does not suddenly become obsolete or erased. So I see that as a moot point.

This is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you feel that your standards are higher than the Kukkiwon, and you are happy with the results your teaching is getting, you feel your students are highly skilled and capable (especially when compared to most Kukkiwon examples that you have seen) and you aren’t interested in Olympic TKD, then perhaps becoming affiliated with and ranked through the Kukkiwon is not for you. It sounds to me like you already know the answer.

I personally have never been a big fan of big corporate oversight and organizations when it comes to martial arts. I don’t feel it is necessary. I prefer the independent schools, or if there is membership in a larger organization, it is loose enough to not become overbearing.

As far as your students’ rank being recognized if they ever move away and join a different school, I say: so what? If their training has been solid and their skills are genuine, that will be recognized quickly in a new school. When you join a new school and start as a white belt, that is only in the context of that new school. Your ranking in your previous school does not suddenly become obsolete or erased. So I see that as a moot point.

This is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

I'll voice this from my own perspective. When I was part of an association, I could have transferred to another school and kept my rank (within reason - the new instructor always had the latitude to say I don't meet the standards and ask me to re-test for my rank). If I went as a student to a school within either of the NGA associations I'm aware of (one loose, the other fairly structured), I'd probably be recognized at the rank I left the NGAA with. Not sure that matters much. I could get back to that rank in 3 1/2 years (minimum time-in-grade requirements). If one of my students transferred to their schools, they would be over-prepared in some areas (based on color of their belt), and need to catch up in others (some of my forms don't match theirs). But they'd be able to progress at minimum time-in-grade if they had to start back at white. Not sure it would make that much difference to me or to them.

That said, I'm not all that rank-conscious. If I were around those who were, my rank would matter more, because some folks don't think a lower rank has any room to give advice or feedback, and I'm simply not capable of not helping where I can.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'll voice this from my own perspective. When I was part of an association, I could have transferred to another school and kept my rank (within reason - the new instructor always had the latitude to say I don't meet the standards and ask me to re-test for my rank). If I went as a student to a school within either of the NGA associations I'm aware of (one loose, the other fairly structured), I'd probably be recognized at the rank I left the NGAA with. Not sure that matters much. I could get back to that rank in 3 1/2 years (minimum time-in-grade requirements). If one of my students transferred to their schools, they would be over-prepared in some areas (based on color of their belt), and need to catch up in others (some of my forms don't match theirs). But they'd be able to progress at minimum time-in-grade if they had to start back at white. Not sure it would make that much difference to me or to them.

That said, I'm not all that rank-conscious. If I were around those who were, my rank would matter more, because some folks don't think a lower rank has any room to give advice or feedback, and I'm simply not capable of not helping where I can.

I'm with you. I have belts from multiple orgs, and started at white for each.

 

[skribs]

Rank is important, though. It's not the be-all end-all, but it does give you the authority to teach, especially within an organization built around ranks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Rank is important, though. It's not the be-all end-all, but it does give you the authority to teach, especially within an organization built around ranks.

Not "especially", but rather "ONLY" because the option is there to teach what you want even if you don't have any particular rank or training. So not really very important at all.

 

[Flying Crane]

Rank is important, though. It's not the be-all end-all, but it does give you the authority to teach, especially within an organization built around ranks.

I guess I would need to ask: if you have rank and teaching authority from one school, even if it’s just “in-house” and not part of a larger org., why would you need to have teaching authority and rank under a different org.? Is it just marketing for name recognition, as a way to trying to get more students? I guess if that is the issue then there isn’t much argument, but otherwise why does that need to matter? Especially if the system is fundamentally the same.

 

[skribs]

Not "especially", but rather "ONLY" because the option is there to teach what you want even if you don't have any particular rank or training. So not really very important at all.

Being certified by a known organization brings a lot of authority to what you say. Anyone can claim to know about martial arts. Having that certificate shows you know what you're talking about. The other option is a tournament record; either your own record, or how many competitions your students have placed in.

I see all the time on other sites people will post "Is this school any good?" with a link to their website. If they are unaffiliated with any organization, then at least half the replies are along the lines of, "They're not with any organization I've ever heard, so probably not."

 

[Jaeimseu]

Being certified by a known organization brings a lot of authority to what you say. Anyone can claim to know about martial arts. Having that certificate shows you know what you're talking about. The other option is a tournament record; either your own record, or how many competitions your students have placed in.

I see all the time on other sites people will post "Is this school any good?" with a link to their website. If they are unaffiliated with any organization, then at least half the replies are along the lines of, "They're not with any organization I've ever heard, so probably not."

Before I say that it mostly doesn’t really matter to almost any prospective student who doesn’t have prior training...I provide Kukkiwon certification to all of my black belts. I am Kukkiwon certified as a black belt and as an instructor. It is important to me.

However, it’s important to me only because it’s important to me. The general public doesn’t know one organization from another (why should they?). A few times per year I’ll get a call from someone looking for a Kukkiwon, or ITF, or whatever school. I’d guess that those calls account to between 1-3% of all the “leads” I get for my school. The other 97-99% don’t know what Kukkiwon is, and probably wouldn’t care if they did. After training with me for a period of time they will know about Kukkiwon, and at that point it may mean something to them, but I don’t believe my Kukkiwon certificate does much of anything to provide legitimacy to my school to the 99%.


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[WaterGal]

IME, issuing black belts after 2-3 years is very common in kid-focused commercial schools that teach karate, TKD, TSD, HKD, or similar styles. Honestly, "black belt" is a very subjective thing, and the standard/meaning varies enormously by style. In Korean styles, the standard is basically "you've got the basics down", like finishing elementary school.

Now, I've definitely seen kids with TKD or karate black belts who didn't really seem to have the basics down, and I think the standard was really "their mom's check cleared". This is definitely an issue that some KKW schools have, but it's hardly unique to them.

All that being said.... I agree with Jaemiseu that "it’s important to me only because it’s important to me".

Most of our students couldn't give a rats behind that we're a KKW school. But I like knowing that they can attend tournaments and be involved in the larger TKD community, and if they move, they can find another school that at least teaches the same forms and sparring style and will recognize their rank.

And "joining" KKW costs you nothing, other than dan test fees, which you can pass along to your students (and now, the master instructor course, which is like $300 IIRC). So there's not much of a downside.

However, there's frankly no reason why you couldn't teach those same forms and sparring style and not issue KKW rank, if you prefer not to. Most people won't care.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Being certified by a known organization brings a lot of authority to what you say. Anyone can claim to know about martial arts. Having that certificate shows you know what you're talking about. The other option is a tournament record; either your own record, or how many competitions your students have placed in.

I see all the time on other sites people will post "Is this school any good?" with a link to their website. If they are unaffiliated with any organization, then at least half the replies are along the lines of, "They're not with any organization I've ever heard, so probably not."

Nonsense. The typical beginner doesn't know diddly squat about the org you're affiliated with. For those of us who know what the orgs are... it still doesn't matter. Because we're going to judge based on what we actually see in the school.
I have KKW rank for the sole purpose of being able to offer it to students who may want it. In practice, that's a fairly small minority, even of those who move away.

 

[Flying Crane]

Being certified by a known organization brings a lot of authority to what you say. Anyone can claim to know about martial arts. Having that certificate shows you know what you're talking about. The other option is a tournament record; either your own record, or how many competitions your students have placed in.

I see all the time on other sites people will post "Is this school any good?" with a link to their website. If they are unaffiliated with any organization, then at least half the replies are along the lines of, "They're not with any organization I've ever heard, so probably not."

I don’t agree with this position. I suspect that people who are not experienced in martial arts and are essentially uneducated on the topic, might be swayed or impressed by membership/certification in a large organization like Kukkiwon. For those who have been around the block a few times, didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday, we recognize it for the mixed bag that it is. There may be some benefits in terms of access to competition and marketing for name recognition, maybe some instructor support, if these issues are important to you or you are in need of these services. But there is absolutely no need for those things if they are not important to you or you don’t need the services, and the standards set by a large org. Like Kukkiwon are are under no guarantee to be higher than a small school or a small affiliation of schools. The quality of training is not guaranteed to be better, and perhaps can often be worse.

So if the perceived benefits are important to you, then join up. If not, don’t.

Personally, I sign up to train under a particular teacher who I believe in. I don’t care what org. They do or do not belong to.

 

[skribs]

Nonsense. The typical beginner doesn't know diddly squat about the org you're affiliated with. For those of us who know what the orgs are... it still doesn't matter. Because we're going to judge based on what we actually see in the school.
I have KKW rank for the sole purpose of being able to offer it to students who may want it. In practice, that's a fairly small minority, even of those who move away.

They don't. But they post the question on reddit or quora, and those people know enough to know that if it doesn't say "kukkiwon" or "ITF", it's not one of the major organizations.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The people that know what kukkiwon is, aren't going to care if you have a kukkiwon black belt, or another black belt. The only 2 reasons I can see it benefiting: You want to enter competitions where you need that black belt, or you learn the exact same curriculum already, and you/your student are planning to move somewhere else. You also shouldn't rely on that authority to make a case or need it to convince others of your skill...if you are relying on it, that's an indictment of your skill and for those that know what it is, it's more likely to turn them away then pull them in IMO (also as you mentioned, the kukkiwon has a bit of a reputation as a belt mill so take that as you will).

For the first, that's only really if you want to go to the olympics. There are plenty of other competitions you can do if you want that don't require it.

For the second, I would imagine that if you can prove to the instructor that you know all the material, they're not going to start you at white belt. Maybe start you at one belt below what you've got, and keep you there until you've fully proven you know the material for the next belt.
If you have a similar curriculum, just start at white/blue/whatever rank they deem appropriate, and work your way up. Assuming what you learn is legitimate, you'll rank faster than other students. And assuming you're going somewhere with sparring/have a good instructor, they'll recognize your skill level and have you work with the appropriate individuals anyway. If what you learned isn't legitimate/at the level it should be, you now have the chance to start again and learn everything if your ego can handle it, which is also a good thing.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They don't. But they post the question on reddit or quora, and those people know enough to know that if it doesn't say "kukkiwon" or "ITF", it's not one of the major organizations.

And the response is normally that this isn't an issue with it. And they're more likely to get told to stay away from kukkiwon/wt on reddit, than they are to be told to go there, just due to reddits general hivemind.

 

[skribs]

And the response is normally that this isn't an issue with it. And they're more likely to get told to stay away from kukkiwon/wt on reddit, than they are to be told to go there, just due to reddits general hivemind.

r/martialarts yes. r/taekwondo no.