Israeli Soldiers attacked by "relief" ship

[Makalakumu]

And it's 9 killed, not 20.

How do you know it's nine and not 20? Seriously, unless you count the bodies you don't really know do you...

It's all propaganda and spin. It's better to understand your own biases in order to sharpen discernment.

 

[Archangel M]

BTW. A little advice for the next time.

 

[Makalakumu]

Woe is me zionism?

Israel has 400 nukes. They have tons of advanced weapon systems. They aren't going any where. The US doesn't need to support Israel. Especially when they feel like they can get agree pass for war crimes. Let's say the Israelis didn't shoot first and that the flotilla was simply trying to repellent borders in international waters. Do ships have a right to defend themselves even from a government that is supported by our government? If Iran did this people would be singing a different kind of propaganda.

 

[elder9991]

Israel has 400 nukes. .

Frahumph! Maybe as many as that, maybe as few as 50. They've definitely generated enough material for about that many........

 

[Archangel M]

NZ's natives and neighboring countries havent stated that their goals were to wipe NZ off of the map...and made the attempt...have they?

 

[Tez3]

How do you know it's nine and not 20? Seriously, unless you count the bodies you don't really know do you...

It's all propaganda and spin. It's better to understand your own biases in order to sharpen discernment.

On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report of all the coffins of those killed arriving in Turkey, 9 of them. They are being buried in Turkey.


The truth is that most people don't actually care what happens in the Middle East, the big Arab countries such as Saudi pay lip service to condeming Israel and supporting their 'brothers'. Much of what is happening out there could be resolved but won't be through indifference. Europes and Americas interest is in oil, as long as that flows no one cares really about what is happening. Arms dealers and that includes governments are enjoying the dividend of so many wanting arms, the recession holds most peoples attention as it concrns them and theres, whoc ares whats happening elsewhere? Yeah make a verbal protest then get on with life, thats what most think. Vent a bit of spleen against the Israelis, make yourself feel better, hell aren't that what Jews are for, to condemn? Yeah lets go back to Germany or Poland though my family never lived there being from the Netherlands. they died in Germany and the ashes from the crematoria scattered there though, does that count?


As with all things, one should listen to all these reports and realise that the media has it's own agenda which isn't actually telling the truth, it's telling a story with the view to selling advertising space and/or newspapers.

Oh and the Jews are the natives in Israel, they didn't leave Israel, they were invaded several times by various nations but always there's been Jews in Israel, the number swelled of course with immigration but always Jews have owned land, lived and died in Israel. Many, many thousands actually, thoughout the land. Jesus was a Jew remember, living in Israel called by the Romans Palestine, no Muslims around then, just Jews and the invaders. The Muslim invaders came later, so did the Christian Crusaders, the Turks and the British but always Jews were living there.

Who is anyone to 'give' Israel to it's original people? Perhaps Britain as the original 'owners' of America should 'give' back the land to it's original owners the native Americans? Americans certainly led by example there didn't they? don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

 

[elder9991]

On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report of all the coffins of those killed arriving in Turkey, 9 of them. They are being buried in Turkey.

Even the American?

 

[Tez3]

Even the American?

The Turks didn't say there was an American, if they have the body and possession is 9 tenths of the law they may well bury them ! they were all making a big deal of staying in Turkey until after the funerals there.

 

[knuckleheader]

..... May be Israel can play nicer with its natives. .

How naive. It's the "natives" that want to eliminate Israel. If the enemies of Israel would stop firing rockets/suicide bombers, they'd co-exist.


The radical Arab militants do not want to live in peace. There are plenty Palestinians that would stop fighting. But, leaders of Hamas and other similar groups keep waging war.

The militants are responsible for the deaths of innocents!

Helen Thomas needs to be put out to pasture.

 

[elder9991]

The Turks didn't say there was an American, if they have the body and possession is 9 tenths of the law they may well bury them ! they were all making a big deal of staying in Turkey until after the funerals there.

Quite right: American Furkan Dorgan,19, shot 4 times in head and one in chest, was a Turkish-American who lived in Turkey.....

 

[Big Don]

We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us

Golda Meir

 

[Makalakumu]

On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report of all the coffins of those killed arriving in Turkey, 9 of them. They are being buried in Turkey.

If that really was all of the coffins, then that settles it. The point is that you've got to take what the MSM offers with a chunk of rock salt. Even the BBC is not above taking video of nine coffins and claiming that this was all there was. There may still have been more killed, we simply don't know.

Oh and the Jews are the natives in Israel, they didn't leave Israel, they were invaded several times by various nations but always there's been Jews in Israel, the number swelled of course with immigration but always Jews have owned land, lived and died in Israel. Many, many thousands actually, thoughout the land. Jesus was a Jew remember, living in Israel called by the Romans Palestine, no Muslims around then, just Jews and the invaders. The Muslim invaders came later, so did the Christian Crusaders, the Turks and the British but always Jews were living there.

Who is anyone to 'give' Israel to it's original people? Perhaps Britain as the original 'owners' of America should 'give' back the land to it's original owners the native Americans? Americans certainly led by example there didn't they? don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

This might be a side issue, but something I've always wondered is how can a religion be a race? In Poland and Germany, at various times, large numbers of people converted to Judaism. Many of the Israelis now, came from this stock. How can anyone consider these people to be the natives of Palestine?

How many Jews (or Israelis) can really trace back their lineage to Jews that lived in Palestine?

 

[Ramirez]

Because they were just floating around, minding their own business, and were swarmed by soldiers for no reason at all. They had not declared their intent to violate a naval blockade and deliver supplies ashore. They had not rejected a request to put into port, have their cargo inspected, and then have Israel transport it for them to the intended destinations. Nothing like that. They were fishing. Yeah, that's it, fishing.

Let's say it was a boat full of Israelis bringing 'aid' to Jews who live in Turkey under repressive conditions. The Turks tell them not to and board the ship before it arrives. The Israelis start beating them with chairs and shooting at them, maybe tossing a couple grenades. You seriously think the world would be condemning the Turks if they reacted as the Israelis did?

It was a set-piece battle, intended to provoke a reaction, which it did.

Do you seriously think if it were not aid for the Palestinians that they would not get more sympathy?

Seems like certain parties tried something similar before and weren't condemned for it.

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0795/9507046.htm

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

Krauthammer: Those troublesome Jews
Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 4, 2010

The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

...

Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.
...

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

...

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

...

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.

 

[Ken Morgan]

one should listen to all these reports and realise that the media has it's own agenda which isn't actually telling the truth, it's telling a story with the view to selling advertising space and/or newspapers.

Oh and the Jews are the natives in Israel

QFT
:asian:

 

[Tez3]

If that really was all of the coffins, then that settles it. The point is that you've got to take what the MSM offers with a chunk of rock salt. Even the BBC is not above taking video of nine coffins and claiming that this was all there was. There may still have been more killed, we simply don't know.



This might be a side issue, but something I've always wondered is how can a religion be a race? In Poland and Germany, at various times, large numbers of people converted to Judaism. Many of the Israelis now, came from this stock. How can anyone consider these people to be the natives of Palestine?

How many Jews (or Israelis) can really trace back their lineage to Jews that lived in Palestine?

I didn't say the BBC reported only 9 coffins, I said the Turks reported nine coffins and they have a dog in this fight as the 'protestors' were funded by them, it's in their interest to say there were more killed not less.

Large numbers of people converted to Judaism? Really? where did you get that from? Very few people want to convert to Judaism as it usually means getting killed or at the very least kicked out of your country. I think your research is faulty there. I have no knowledge of large numbers converting, why would they when hated so much by the Christians? Give me a year or even a century this happened because I can assure you that didn't happen. Individual conversions on marriage more than likely but there were no large scale conversions. However between 1800 and 1810 one tenth of the German population converted to Christianity not the other way around. Fifty out of the 405 Jewish families in Berlin converted.

The natives of Israel are the Jews, what, did you think every single Jew from Jesus' time upped and left the country? A great many left as slaves, to other parts of the known world at the time but Jews have always lived in Israel, long before the Arabs arrived. Have a look at Jewish history, Jews were still in Israel when the Crusaders were there,they were still there at the end of the First World War and they were still thee after the Second World War. Jews have always been in Israel. Why wouldn't they be?

 

[Makalakumu]

I didn't say the BBC reported only 9 coffins, I said the Turks reported nine coffins and they have a dog in this fight as the 'protestors' were funded by them, it's in their interest to say there were more killed not less.

You saw this on BBC. You said so yourself.

"On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report..."

This means that the BBC is reporting on something that apparently happened on Turkish television. You still don't know how many were actually killed.

Large numbers of people converted to Judaism? Really? where did you get that from?

I just finished a book on Polish history that illustrated the history of Judaism in that country. Basically, it stated that a large number of people converted to Judaism because Jews actually had more rights in Poland then other people. They could own land, they could own banks, they could start businesses. Most of the Jews lived in the towns and people from the countryside would move into the towns and join their community in order to have a better life. There were two large periods of conversion. Between 800 and 1000 when Christianity was first moving into Poland and 1300 to 1500 when the weak Polish state could hardly govern the country, much less organize any persecution.

So, you can assure me that this didn't happen?

The natives of Israel are the Jews, what, did you think every single Jew from Jesus' time upped and left the country? A great many left as slaves, to other parts of the known world at the time but Jews have always lived in Israel, long before the Arabs arrived. Have a look at Jewish history, Jews were still in Israel when the Crusaders were there,they were still there at the end of the First World War and they were still thee after the Second World War. Jews have always been in Israel. Why wouldn't they be?

Like all people, the Jews eventually came from somewhere else. If you trace the generations back, you'll get to a time where people had to move into the area that would become known as Palestine. The same is true for every people on Earth.

This reads like the argument that many native tribes of North America make where they say they have always been on this land that that their people didn't cross the land bridge and never came from anywhere else. That's bogus too, and they know it deep down and they also know that it's bogusness undermines any special claims on the land they inhabit. It's the same with the Isrealis, except that their claim is even more tenuous and illogical.

The bottom line is this, despite all of the Isreali Nationalist propaganda to the contrary, you have Jews of every race, in all different kinds of countries, who have no link whatsoever to Palestine. This is because Judaism is an idea and has nothing to do with biology or geography. Anyone can be a Jew simply by believing in Judaism. How can you honestly claim that all of these people are natives of Palestine?

How many Jews in Israel can honestly trace their ancestry back to Palestine thousands of years ago? Can you?

 

[CanuckMA]

I just finished a book on Polish history that illustrated the history of Judaism in that country. Basically, it stated that a large number of people converted to Judaism because Jews actually had more rights in Poland then other people. They could own land, they could own banks, they could start businesses. Most of the Jews lived in the towns and people from the countryside would move into the towns and join their community in order to have a better life. There were two large periods of conversion. Between 800 and 1000 when Christianity was first moving into Poland and 1300 to 1500 when the weak Polish state could hardly govern the country, much less organize any persecution.

So, you can assure me that this didn't happen?

Book's title and author?

Like all people, the Jews eventually came from somewhere else. If you trace the generations back, you'll get to a time where people had to move into the area that would become known as Palestine. The same is true for every people on Earth.

This reads like the argument that many native tribes of North America make where they say they have always been on this land that that their people didn't cross the land bridge and never came from anywhere else. That's bogus too, and they know it deep down and they also know that it's bogusness undermines any special claims on the land they inhabit. It's the same with the Isrealis, except that their claim is even more tenuous and illogical.

The bottom line is this, despite all of the Isreali Nationalist propaganda to the contrary, you have Jews of every race, in all different kinds of countries, who have no link whatsoever to Palestine. This is because Judaism is an idea and has nothing to do with biology or geography. Anyone can be a Jew simply by believing in Judaism. How can you honestly claim that all of these people are natives of Palestine?

How many Jews in Israel can honestly trace their ancestry back to Palestine thousands of years ago? Can you?

DNA studies of Jews show that the majority af Jews are geneticaly related to the Middle East.

 

[Archangel M]

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(10)00246-6

 

[CanuckMA]

Where's the outrage towards Egypt?


http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177687


Iran's escalation: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy