The attack on the USS Liberty - Friendly Fire/Fog of War or Something Else?

Makalakumu

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Here is the wiki entry on the USS Liberty Incident.

The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a neutral U.S. Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli jet fighter planes and motor torpedo boats on June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War. The combined air and sea attack killed 34 and wounded more than 170 crew members, and damaged the ship severely. The ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nautical miles northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.[1]

Shortly after the attack ended, Israel informed the U.S. that its forces had attacked the Liberty in error. An Israeli inquiry by Colonel Ram Ron concluded that the attack was caused by a chain of mistakes by Israel Defense Force (IDF) personnel.[2](p.9) The IDF, in its History Report about the attack, says it asked the United States to inform them of any U.S. ships in the area but was not told of the Liberty's presence.[3](p.22) The IDF air and naval forces, respectively, misidentified the Liberty as an unknown destroyer and the Egyptian cargo ship El Quseir.[3](p.15) Supporters of Israel's explanation say that no credible motive existed for Israel to initiate a surprise attack against an important ally and the possibility of such mistakes were inherent in the tense atmosphere of the Six-Day War. The United States government was concerned about such dangers and ordered the Liberty farther away from shore but the order was not received in time due to a series of communication failures.[4] In the IDF's History Report about the attack, it points out that that "though the attack on the armed forces of a friendly nation is a most regrettable and painful occurrence, incidents of this kind do occur in war-time."[3](p.38).

Other sources claim that the attack was premeditated. They note that various aircraft, apparently Israeli, flew over Liberty at regular intervalssome at low altitudesbefore the attack; and that Liberty was about twice as large as El Quseir, designated with Latin rather than Arabic letters, displaying the US flag, and differently configured. Proponents include the surviving Liberty crewmen, [5] and some former U.S. government officials, including then-CIA director Richard Helms and then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk as well as Admiral Thomas Hinman Moorer, former Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The Johnson administration did not publicly dispute Israel's claim that the attack had been nothing more than a disastrous mistake, but internal White House documents obtained from the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library show that the Israelis' explanation of how the mistake had occurred was not believed.[6]

Both the Israeli and American governments conducted inquiries into the incident, and issued reports concluding that the attack was a tragic mistake, caused by confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty. The conclusions reached in the inquiry reports remain controversial, and some veterans and intelligence officials who were involved in the incident continue to dispute the official story claiming Israels attack on the USS Liberty remains the only major maritime incident in American history not investigated by Congress.[6] In May 1968, Israel paid US$3,323,500 as full payment on behalf of the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969 Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980 Israel agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.[7]

On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes.
 

Tez3

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So why would the Israelis shoot their biggest supporters ship?
Why do some also say the Liberty shot first?
Why did countless American investigations clear the Israelis of deliberate attacking the ship while condemning the mistakes made by both Americans and Isrealis?
 
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Makalakumu

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This five minute video asserts that Israel conspired with Washington to perform the attack on the Liberty in order to set a pretext for drawing the US into war against Israel's enemies. The attack would kill all aboard and it would then be blamed on Egypt.

Was the attack on the Liberty a False Flag operation?
 
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Tez3

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I wouldn't have thought that America would actually need any pretext to get involved if they wished and they were supplying arms and military intel as it was.
I know at the time the Israelis were terrified when it happened because they at first thought they'd fired on a Russian ship which would have brought Russia into the war which would have been a disaster.
 

Ninjamom

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Was the attack on the Liberty a False Flag operation?
No, and I have found no evidence whatsoever to back this claim up.

The two possible reasons suggested most often for the attack on the Liberty are:
1. To hide comsec/sigint data indicating Israel was imminently to expand the war in the north and attack the Golan Heights, or
2. To conceal troop movements/actions that we would oppose against the Egyptians (including possible war crimes) in Sinai.

As far as why Israeli would even think of attacking its biggest ally, please keep in mind that this occurred in 1967. At the time we weren't staunch allies. US Foreign policy at the time saw everything as a polarization of us (goodguys) vs the Soviets (badguys). The Soviets and the US were in a 'spending war' to buy allies with military aid and advisors, as everyone in the region lined up with either 'us' or 'them'. The Israelis at the time were very adept at playing 'both sides off the middle', and accepted aid and supplies from both.

At the time, there wasn't enough trust established for the Israelis to know with certainty that we would keep whatever intelligence we collected to ourselves (after all, we still had hope of building alliances with other nations in the region, as well - our greatest concern was containing communism, not the survival of the state of Israel). They had to consider the possibility that whatever intelligence we collected would find its way to their adversaries.
 

Ninjamom

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I know at the time the Israelis were terrified when it happened because they at first thought they'd fired on a Russian ship which would have brought Russia into the war which would have been a disaster.
I have found no reports, no telecommunications, no data that suggests any Israeli thought they had struck a Soviet vessel. The Liberty was marked and tracked as an American vessel for several days prior to the incident. Helicopter chatter also indicated it was known immediately that an American vessel had been hit.

Tez, even if you disagree with it, I suggest reading the Chicago Tribune article I referenced in the other thread. It may not be the best article, but it does give a satisfactory overview of the facts of the case, and may help with understanding differing points of view in this discussion. (Link given here for reference.)
 

Tez3

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I have to say the Wikipedia article on this is one of the most detailed I've ever seen on there. It has accounts on those who say it was deliberate and also for those who say it was accidental. There is a huge amount of reading to go through just on wikipedia alone. To assert baldly that this this and this happened purely from one account by one person would be foolish.
I think the upshot is that after all the enquiries which were made by the US authorities they decided it was accidental.
Ninmom you should stop asserting that Israelis are good at this or good at that, we were good at playing off one against the other? With the Soviets? I hardly think so, the Soviets hated Israel and hated Jews, there is no way they would have supported Israel at that time, there was barely any diplomatic contact let alone trying to play one off against the other,the Soviets wouldn't have spit on us if we'd been on fire. there support, money and arms went very firmly to the Arabs. I remember that war vividly as well as many others, I would suggest you don't and know of it as a historical act not a personal recollection.
 

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Here is a column on it.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]NEW YORK On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab Israeli War, the intelligence ship 'USS Liberty' was steaming slowly in international waters, 14 miles off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli armored forces were racing deep into Sinai in hot pursuit of the retreating Egyptian army.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]'Liberty,' a World War II freighter, had been converted into an intelligence vessel by the top-secret US National Security Agency, and packed with the latest signals and electronic interception equipment. The ship bristled with antennas and electronic 'ears' including TRSSCOMM, a system that delivered real-time intercepts to Washington by bouncing a stream of microwaves off the moon.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]'Liberty' had been rushed to Sinai to monitor communications of the belligerents in the Third Arab Israeli War: Israel and her foes, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over 'Liberty,' which was flying a large American flag. At 1400 hrs, waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon. The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes. The 'Liberty' was left afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay dead, a hundred seriously wounded, including the captain, Commander William McGonagle.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]At 1424 hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning 'Liberty' with 20mm and 40mm shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli torpedo hit the 'Liberty' midship, precisely where the signals intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Israeli gunboats circled the wounded 'Liberty,' firing at crewmen trying to fight the fires. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. The Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the White House.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes returned. Commander McGonagle gave the order. 'prepare to repel borders.' But the Israelis, probably fearful of intervention by the US Sixth Fleet, departed. 'Liberty' was left shattered but still defiant, her flag flying.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Israeli attacks killed 34 US seamen and wounded 171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss of American naval personnel from hostile action since World War II.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a 'tragic error.' Later, Israel claimed it had mistaken 'Liberty' for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]In contrast to American outrage over North Korea's assault on the intelligence ship 'Pueblo,' Iraq's mistaken missile strike on the USS 'Stark,' last fall's bombing of the USS 'Cole' in Aden, and the recent US-China air incident, the savaging of 'Liberty' was quickly hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The White House and Congress immediately accepted Israel's explanation and let the matter drop. Israel later paid a token reparation of US $6 million. There were reports two Israeli pilots who had refused to attack 'Liberty' were jailed for 18 years.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Surviving 'Liberty' crew members would not be silenced. They kept demanding an open inquiry and tried to tell their story of deliberate attack to the media. Israel's government worked behind the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having American pro-Israel groups accuse 'Liberty's' survivors of being 'anti-Semites' and 'Israel-haters.' Major TV networks cancelled interviews with the crew. A book about the 'Liberty' by crewman James Ennes' was dropped from distribution. The Israel lobby branded him 'an Arab propagandist.'[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the 'Liberty,' electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Why did Israel try to sink a naval vessel of its benefactor and ally? Most likely because 'Liberty's' intercepts flatly contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's beginning on 5 June, that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel's massive air assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began the war by a devastating, Pearl-Harbor style surprise attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their entire air forces.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Israel was also preparing to attack Syria to seize its strategic Golan Heights. Washington warned Israel not to invade Syria, which had remained inactive while Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says Israel's offensive against Syria was abruptly postponed when 'Liberty' appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked out of action. Israel's claim that Syria had attacked it could have been disproved by 'Liberty.'[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Most significant, 'Liberty's' intercepts may have shown that Israel seized upon sharply rising Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June 1967 to launch a long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank, Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Far more shocking was Washington's response. Writes Bamford: 'Despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel attacked the ship and killed American servicemen deliberately, the Johnson Administration and Congress covered up the entire incident.' Why?[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Domestic politics. Johnson, a man never noted for high moral values, preferred to cover up the attack rather than anger a key constituency and major financial backer of the Democratic Party. Congress was even less eager to touch this 'third rail' issue.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism not in the White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member's graves were inscribed, 'died in the Eastern Mediterranean..' as if they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile action.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]A member of President Johnson's staff believed there was a more complex reason for the cover-up: Johnson offered Jewish liberals unconditional backing of Israel, and a cover-up of the 'Liberty' attack, in exchange for the liberal toning down their strident criticism of his policies in the then raging Vietnam War.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Israel, which claims it fought a war of self defense in 1967 and had no prior territorial ambitions, will be much displeased by Bamford's revelations. Those who believe Israel illegally occupies the West Bank and Golan will be emboldened.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Much more important, the US government's long, disgraceful cover-up of the premeditated attack on 'Liberty' has now burst into the open and demands full-scale investigation. After 34 years, the voices of 'Liberty's' dead and wounded seamen must finally be heard.
[/FONT]​
 

Tez3

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I have to say the Wikipedia article on this is one of the most detailed I've ever seen on there. It has accounts on those who say it was deliberate and also for those who say it was accidental. There is a huge amount of reading to go through just on wikipedia alone. To assert baldly that this this and this happened purely from one account by one person would be foolish.
I think the upshot is that after all the enquiries which were made by the US authorities they decided it was accidental.
Ninmom you should stop asserting that Israelis are good at this or good at that, we were good at playing off one against the other? With the Soviets? I hardly think so, the Soviets hated Israel and hated Jews, there is no way they would have supported Israel at that time, there was barely any diplomatic contact let alone trying to play one off against the other,the Soviets wouldn't have spit on us if we'd been on fire. there support, money and arms went very firmly to the Arabs. I remember that war vividly as well as many others, I would suggest you don't and know of it as a historical act not a personal recollection.

I have found no reports, no telecommunications, no data that suggests any Israeli thought they had struck a Soviet vessel. The Liberty was marked and tracked as an American vessel for several days prior to the incident. Helicopter chatter also indicated it was known immediately that an American vessel had been hit.

Tez, even if you disagree with it, I suggest reading the Chicago Tribune article I referenced in the other thread. It may not be the best article, but it does give a satisfactory overview of the facts of the case, and may help with understanding differing points of view in this discussion. (Link given here for reference.)


You didn't read the wikipedia article then.

I think you should read all of it first.
 

Tez3

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Oh well if you say it's true it must be then mustn't it. The bad Jews have done it again oh and we got blamed for 9/11 didn't we? All a Zionist plan to take over the world and kill Americans. No one is willing to look at all the sides here, for once Wikipedia got the most balanced point of view, showing that many American service personnel also didn't believe it wasn't accidental but we must have a conspiricy theory so we'll stir and stir until people believe it was a conspirecy bearing in mind how much hatred there is of Jews anyway, so always a good target there.
Still if your going to tell a lie tell a big one, never let truth get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
 

Ramirez

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Oh well if you say it's true it must be then mustn't it. The bad Jews have done it again oh and we got blamed for 9/11 didn't we? All a Zionist plan to take over the world and kill Americans. No one is willing to look at all the sides here, for once Wikipedia got the most balanced point of view, showing that many American service personnel also didn't believe it wasn't accidental but we must have a conspiricy theory so we'll stir and stir until people believe it was a conspirecy bearing in mind how much hatred there is of Jews anyway, so always a good target there.
Still if your going to tell a lie tell a big one, never let truth get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

So we are not allowed a debate or opinion without accusations of antisemitism? The corollary of your post is that the Jews can do no wrong and all debate to the contrary is racist.

I am not sure who you were referring to but I see nothing in Ninjamom's posts that would be antisemitic.


For what it is worth, I posted a column by Eric Margolis whose father is Jewish and mother is I believe an Albanian Muslim.

Edit: I thought about it and didn't like the way this post sounded, I shouldn't have said Jews but Israelis.
 
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exile

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Ramirez

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Rockwell, of course, saw absolutely no evidence of anti-Semitism in Mel Gibson's drunken roadside rant a couple of years ago. Clearly, you've picked a very detached observer with no agenda of his own...

Maybe you should look for a column or two by David Duke or Pat Buchanan on the subject, to really convince us—I'm sure they'd be on the same page with Rockwell. :rofl:

It is actually a column by Eric Margolis, who as I have pointed out (had you bother to read the next post) of Jewish background. I just grabbed the first link I saw after a google search.

If you don't like that resource then here is the column on another page
http://www.bigeye.com/042901.htm
 

Tez3

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So we are not allowed a debate or opinion without accusations of antisemitism? The corollary of your post is that the Jews can do no wrong and all debate to the contrary is racist.

I am not sure who you were referring to but I see nothing in Ninjamom's posts that would be antisemitic.


For what it is worth, I posted a column by Eric Margolis whose father is Jewish and mother is I believe an Albanian Muslim.

Edit: I thought about it and didn't like the way this post sounded, I shouldn't have said Jews but Israelis.

You read me wrong, I'm saddened by the lack of anyone willing to look at all the reports not that I think the Israelis can do no wrong. I am saddened by the fact there is no debate but rather that minds are made up already.
we are trying to debate something that happened in a warzone many years ago based on reports made by witnesses from both sides. Yet all that I've been told is that....this is so because this person said so.... despite another person saying it's not so. The witness accounts disagree with each other, a warzone and a ship under attack, Isreali pilots exhausted to the point they make bad judgement calls and yet one one persons view is correct?

No, it was an accident but many people were responsible who should have known better, who should be called to account on both sides. These days it would never take 24 hours for a message to get to a naval ship from it's command, pilots wouldn't be sent into the skies having had no sleep and constant sorties, allies firing at each other, ships not where they were supposed to be, it was an accident waiting to happen and for which blame does lie. It was an awful mess and many people were putting up their umbrellas to deflect the blame.

But people have to have their theories, that it was deliberate, I'm sorry for the crew but being under attack doesn't make them right in that it was deliberate does it? You know how many theories there are that involve the Jews? A lot.
 

exile

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I was actually looking for the column by Eric Margolis, who as I have pointed out (had you bother to read the next post) of Jewish background.

If you don't like that resource then here is the column on another page
http://www.bigeye.com/042901.htm

Pity I'm not a mindreader, Ramirez. You posted a column by Lew Rockwell, and I responded to it while you posted your followup to Tez's note. It's called crossing posts, savvy?

As to Margolis' being half Jewish, this means precisely what? Noam Chomsky is Jewish on both sides, and has notoriously defended not just anti-semites but Holocaust deniers like the loathsome Robert Faurrison. He too later tried to frame it as a matter of freedom of speech, that he had no inkling of what was actually in Faurisson's book, but it was clear to people around him at MIT that he indeed knew exactly what RF had written at the time he wrote the forward to Faurisson's book; see also Werner Cohn's detailed history of NC's involvement in Holocaust denial groups. There have been high ranking American Nazi Party/KKK members who turned out to be Jewish, for that matter. So exactly what the hell is the relevance of Margolis' being Jewish?
 
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Ramirez

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Pity I'm not a mindreader, Ramirez. You posted a column by Lew Rockwell, and I responded to it while you posted your followup to Tez's note. It's called crossing posts, savvy?

As to Margolis' being half Jewish, this means precisely what? Noam Chomsky is Jewish on both sides, and has notoriously defended not just anti-semites but Holocaust deniers like the loathsome Robert Faurrison. He too later tried to frame it as a matter of freedom of speech, that he had no inkling of what was actually in Faurisson's book, but it was clear to people around him at MIT that he indeed knew exactly what RF had written at the time he wrote the forward to Faurisson's book; see also Werner Cohn's detailed history of NC's involvement in Holocaust denial groups. There have been high ranking American Nazi Party/KKK member who turned out to be Jewish, for that matter. So exactly what the hell is the relevance of Margolis' being Jewish?

I guess the link saying Margolis on the end didn't mean anything to you.

So exactly what the hell is the relevance of Margolis' being Jewish?

What the hell does Noam Chomsky have to do with Eric Margolis?
 

Tez3

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http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0331-08.htm


A modern friendly fire incident, the pilot deliberately fired on the British troops. The pilot was never identified to the British by the Americans, had no action taken against him/her and nothing more was said. do we build a case for conspiracy out of this, the Americans didn't want the British 'knowing' something or wanted the balme to fall on the Iraqis?

No we don't, we hope it was a terrible accident that won't ever be repeated by this pilot and we hope lessons are learned. Btw I'm not picking on the Americans, we've had friendly fire incidents too. the Israeli pilots involved in the Liberty incident had already been involved in a friendly fire incident after firing on their own troops. Not confidence building but sets a precedent for exhausted pilots judgement being bad.
 

Tez3

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I guess the link saying Margolis on the end didn't mean anything to you.



What the hell does Noam Chomsky have to do with Eric Margolis?

Not being American I'm afraid none of it has any relevance to me.
 

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