Is weakness in the art or the practitioner?

Azulx

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
659
Reaction score
215
I have seen stated several times that every martial art has a weakness, but does it? Could it be possible that the weakness just lies in the practitioner?
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
10,444
Location
Maui
Who, us? A weakness in us? The practitioners?......nah, we be Gods and tough guys.
That's why all of us who are exceptional Martial Artist and great fighters are all of the same style. We just be a band of bad mother fuzzekers brothers, lovers and thieves. Who happen to run wild on da internet.

Giggles.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,212
Reaction score
6,308
Location
New York
Not 100% sure what you're asking there, but here's the answer to my interpretation of the question:
I believe it was Bruce Lee that talked about how since each person is different, they all should create the art that's best for them (extreme paraphrasing since I couldn't find the original quote/talk). To follow this line of thought, if you are not the right person for a certain art, you wouldn't be able to use it as well. That's both a fault of you and a fault of the art. For instance: I am short, and dont have long legs, so I couldn't make the best use of TKD. This is a weakness in myself, but if you're looking for the 'best' art, it's a weakness for TKD because it doesn't apply to everyone. To take this one step forward/backwards, everyone has a 'perfect art' for them that matches their personal style and body, even if it hasn't been created yet (once again like Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do) but if someone else tries to use that 'perfect art', there will be weaknesses that show up that the practitioner may not be able to overcome.

I am in no way an expert on JKD or Bruce Lee, so it is possible I superimposed my philosophy on him. I don't believe I did, but if I did can someone please correct me/explain what his philosophy is, since I feel like it will still be relevant.
 

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
3,127
Reaction score
1,644
Yes there are weeknesses in arts. It is equally true there are weeknesses in people. Even if there was an art form out there like Ameri-do-te, best of all worst of none, no single person could master it. There just isn't that many hours in a life time.
You have to pick and choose what's important to you. And what is important to you will change over time.
 
OP
A

Azulx

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
659
Reaction score
215
Not 100% sure what you're asking there, but here's the answer to my interpretation of the question:
I believe it was Bruce Lee that talked about how since each person is different, they all should create the art that's best for them (extreme paraphrasing since I couldn't find the original quote/talk). To follow this line of thought, if you are not the right person for a certain art, you wouldn't be able to use it as well. That's both a fault of you and a fault of the art. For instance: I am short, and dont have long legs, so I couldn't make the best use of TKD. This is a weakness in myself, but if you're looking for the 'best' art, it's a weakness for TKD because it doesn't apply to everyone. To take this one step forward/backwards, everyone has a 'perfect art' for them that matches their personal style and body, even if it hasn't been created yet (once again like Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do) but if someone else tries to use that 'perfect art', there will be weaknesses that show up that the practitioner may not be able to overcome.

I am in no way an expert on JKD or Bruce Lee, so it is possible I superimposed my philosophy on him. I don't believe I did, but if I did can someone please correct me/explain what his philosophy is, since I feel like it will still be relevant.


There are many people who believe that there is a "best martial art" out there (it's usually the one they practice.) I do not believe that a best one exists, because martial arts are so diverse and each style takes more than a life time to truly master. My question was based on the fact that there are extraordinary fighters in every style, that could compete against other extraordinary fighter in different styles. Every single person has weaknesses unique to them, but is it the style that has a weakness, or is it the person?

You used TKD as an example, TKD's stereotypical weaknesses are A) can't stand a chance against boxing and B) no ground game.So, what happens if a TKD practitioner defeats a world champion boxer and a World Champion grappling artist in a NHB fight. That doesn't prove that TKD is better, but the fighter beat two opponents that each were world class level practitioners of TKD's weaknesses. So, is it the art or the person that has the weaknesses?
 

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
15,627
Reaction score
4,434
Location
Michigan
I have no doubt that many arts have weaknesses. However, long before I run into a flaw in the system I study, I run into a flaw in myself. I would always tend to first suspect the issue is with myself before assuming the issue is with the system.
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
7,611
Location
Lexington, KY
My Dad is a now (semi) retired scientist who spent years working for NASA studying (among other things) human factors, aviation accidents, and the causes of pilot error.

One point he makes is that if you have a system that depends on a human being doing everything perfectly all the time, that relies on the plusses of the human and fails to take into account the minuses it is the system that has erred, not the person.

I think this can apply to martial arts as well. Almost any technique and any martial art can work under the right circumstances especially if you work hard enough at it. However if the art requires an unreasonable degree of perfection from the practitioner in order to be effective, then it is probably fair to call that a weakness of the system.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,036
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Huber Heights, OH
I have seen stated several times that every martial art has a weakness, but does it? Could it be possible that the weakness just lies in the practitioner?
Question too vague. Define "weakness" in both contexts, please.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,183
Reaction score
761
A good system should have redundancies and back ups built into it. People are going to screw up, whether it's from executing a technique poorly, being outclassed by your opponent or the fog of war.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
14,041
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I have seen stated several times that every martial art has a weakness, but does it? Could it be possible that the weakness just lies in the practitioner?
The weakness exists in the style. For example, the wrestler expose his head for punching is the weakness for wrestling. Sometime "sport" guys may play too much "sport" and forget about "combat". To put your hands in front of your knees may prevent leg/legs shooting. It doesn't prevent head punching. Because the "sport" rule, you develop bad habit. That's your style weakness and not your weakness.

Since all those problems can be removed in MMA, this is why wrestling may be the starting point, but the MMA should be the ending point.

wrestler_posture.jpg
 
Last edited:

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
848
Location
Spokane Valley WA
I have no doubt that many arts have weaknesses. However, long before I run into a flaw in the system I study, I run into a flaw in myself. I would always tend to first suspect the issue is with myself before assuming the issue is with the system.
If you are holding a hammer everything starts to look like a nail, no matter how bad you are at swinging the hammer. :)
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,956
Reaction score
5,846
I have seen stated several times that every martial art has a weakness, but does it? Could it be possible that the weakness just lies in the practitioner?
90% of the time the weakness is going to be in the practitioner. The practitioner is the one who had to determine what techniques will be used and when they will be used. The techniques are only as good as the practitioner's ability to use them. If the practitioner hasn't trained or conditioned properly then the technique will fail him/her.

Most of the martial artist that we see doing horrible in fights is due to the practitioner because you can find someone else who trains in the same system who does exceptionally better. It's really no difference than what goes on in life. The only down fall to some of the martial arts out there is that the students test their ability to use a technique in house, when they really should be testing their ability to use a technique outside of their school.
 

Jenna

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,470
Reaction score
713
Location
Cluj
My Dad is a now (semi) retired scientist who spent years working for NASA studying (among other things) human factors, aviation accidents, and the causes of pilot error.

One point he makes is that if you have a system that depends on a human being doing everything perfectly all the time, that relies on the plusses of the human and fails to take into account the minuses it is the system that has erred, not the person.

I think this can apply to martial arts as well. Almost any technique and any martial art can work under the right circumstances especially if you work hard enough at it. However if the art requires an unreasonable degree of perfection from the practitioner in order to be effective, then it is probably fair to call that a weakness of the system.
Good points Tony.. can you say please which art do you feel require unreasonable degree of perfection from the practitioner in order to be effective? thank you.. oh and please ask your Dad for me if there is like an ET/Roswell cover up thing going on over there?? :) xx
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
848
Location
Spokane Valley WA
Good points Tony.. can you say please which art do you feel require unreasonable degree of perfection from the practitioner in order to be effective? thank you.. oh and please ask your Dad for me if there is like an ET/Roswell cover up thing going on over there?? :) xx
Area 51 is a cover up for area 52. All secret stuff happens at area 52, and if you want to check it out, you are as close to it as we are. :)
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
7,611
Location
Lexington, KY
Good points Tony.. can you say please which art do you feel require unreasonable degree of perfection from the practitioner in order to be effective?
I don't want to call out any arts by name. For one thing, any art that I actually trained long enough to speak authoritatively on wouldn't be one that I thought had that flaw. For another, the method of teaching an art can make a big difference and that can vary from school to school.

In general, I would say that if a martial art requires 10+ years of dedicated study to be used effectively, then it might be making unreasonable demands on the practitioner.

More specifically, I would say that an art which fails to degrade gracefully has problems. This is a concept from engineering - the idea that when part of a system fails, the whole thing shouldn't fall apart. If I can function with a proficiency level of 10 in the dojo, but then I get in a real fight and under pressure I lose 30% of my technical details, then I should still be fighting with a proficiency level of around 7. If I can't use my art effectively at all when I've lost that much of my technique in an adrenaline dump, then there's an issue and it's not just my fault as a practitioner.

oh and please ask your Dad for me if there is like an ET/Roswell cover up thing going on over there?? :) xx

My Dad studied human factors. Alien factors is a whole different department. :vulcan:
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,952
Reaction score
10,444
Location
Maui
Like Danny said, I think it's both. I study American Karate. We have tons of weaknesses. We don't box enough anymore, we don't fight as much as we used to, we don't train standing control techniques as much as I think we should, our throws suck compared to a lot of other styles, our take downs are okay but we don't train take down defense as much as I think we should, we don't have Kata. But it seems to work okay. It works better for some than others, maybe because some put more time in.

And people are different. Example - my friend Dennis was one of six brothers born a year apart, all hockey players from a tough neighborhood. He already knew how to fight before he ever walked into my dojo. He took everything taught him and worked it to death, became a really good Martial Artist. Just like he would have done if he had walked into any of your dojos, regardless of the style. (And Martial Arts really calmed him down, thank God)

On the flip side - I've met some people that I don't think could have advanced in any school that any of us here train in. They just didn't have the intangibles, the drive, the work ethic, whatever. As much as I'd like to think differently, Martial Arts ain't for everyone. It's really hard work.
 

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
One... The other...both.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 

Latest Discussions

Top