Is Toshindo still Ninjutsu?

Sorte Slyngel

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Is Toshindo still a Ninjutsu art, or just plain selfdefense?

All I've seen of Toshindo is about selfdefense. Is the "Ninja" parts of SKH's training still taught in Toshindo? I've seen students use swords and several other feudal weapons but. Is etc Shuriken, Metsubishi, stealth, meditation, killing methodes (just the examples that comes to mind) still being taught in Toshindo?
 

Kreth

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By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.

I ditto what Kreth just said!
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newtothe dark

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From an outsiders perspective TSD has the selfdefense and the "Classical" styles are taught seperate there are even seperate Diplomas for each.
 
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Sorte Slyngel

Sorte Slyngel

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By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.
Well the Ninja aspects of the training are still being taught in Bujinkan and Genbukan. I assume in Jinenkan also. But it's of course as you say the combat part of the self defense that is playing the biggest part of the training nowadays.

I'm wondering why SKH would move away from the Ninja part of the training since it exactly that part that got him hooked on Ninjutsu in the first place.

So if I was making a list of the Ninjutsu arts being taught today, should I include Toshindo or not?
 

bydand

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Is Toshindo still a Ninjutsu art, or just plain selfdefense?

All I've seen of Toshindo is about selfdefense. Is the "Ninja" parts of SKH's training still taught in Toshindo? I've seen students use swords and several other feudal weapons but. Is etc Shuriken, Metsubishi, stealth, meditation, killing methodes (just the examples that comes to mind) still being taught in Toshindo?

Kind of. How's that for a definitive answer :). Strict sense I would have to say no like everybody else has said.

Now that I said that, the school I train at still trains all the things you mentioned. We still do things almost exactly like we did when it was part of the Bujinkan. Some things did change of course, like a frigging rainbow of belt colors (I still HATE that part!), but we still have the traditional weapons we train with. We still train outdoors sometimes (both Summer and winter.) We still associate with our Bujinkan friends and still train with them when we can. Here we make regular trips to Quebec to train with a great guy that is Bujinkan, and he and several of his students come down to train with us sometimes. Special occasions for some of the students at either school will find students from both schools there, and not just MA related; weddings, graduations, birthdays. We all have traveled 5 or 6 hours one way just to show support.

To-Shin Do still Ninjutsu? Hard question. Training methods in some schools you can't tell the difference between Bujinkan and To-Shin Do. Other schools, not so much. It depends on the Instructor and each particular class really. Same basic material overall taught in all the To-Shin Do schools, but different Instructors teach the way they were taught, and that was either straight To-Shin Do, or Bujinkan before the split.

Best way would be go to a couple different Schools, To-Shin Do, Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan. See which one fit you the best and which Instructor matches you best.
 

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By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.

I ditto what Kreth just said!
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Yup!
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I would agree as well.

Could you guys maybe make it clear to a complete outsider just what it is that you're all saying here? What is the distinction that Kreth is drawing between bujutsu (which I take it is the more general term—applied combat techniques, or something like that) and ninjutsu proper? I'd like to get a better undertanding in particular of why it is that you-all are agreeing that not just Toshindo, but the X-kans as well, are teaching mostly bujutsu than ninjutsu. What has disappeared from the curriculum such that it's no longer ninjutsu proper?

I'd really appreciate any light you could shed for me on this....
 

ToShinDoKa

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This video's a little old, but I think it talks to what Anshu was thinking of when adapting the teachings to To-Shin Do.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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This video's a little old, but I think it talks to what Anshu was thinking of when adapting the teachings to To-Shin Do.


Along with that, I agree with what Byband was saying about it usually matters according to the teacher. The first time I went to the North Carolina Quest Center, I saw the younger students practicing throwing shuriken. Later that same day, they were being led my Hakutoshi sensei in a Kukishinden Kenjutsu drill. At the Mountain Quest Seminar, among many other training jewels, we worked on Kukishinden Bojutsu (Staff Arts), Kenjutsu (Long Sword Training), a Togakure ryu Bikenjutsu Kata, and Ninpo Aruki (Ninja Silent Walking).

Would that count as a 'little' bit ninja? I don't know.:shrug:
 
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Bigshadow

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Could you guys maybe make it clear to a complete outsider just what it is that you're all saying here? What is the distinction that Kreth is drawing between bujutsu (which I take it is the more general term—applied combat techniques, or something like that) and ninjutsu proper? I'd like to get a better undertanding in particular of why it is that you-all are agreeing that not just Toshindo, but the X-kans as well, are teaching mostly bujutsu than ninjutsu. What has disappeared from the curriculum such that it's no longer ninjutsu proper?

I'd really appreciate any light you could shed for me on this....


I will try and explain things as I see it (ie, my opinion) with regards to the Bujinkan, but I believe the same will somewhat apply to Toshindo. First the Bujinkan is made up of 9 schools (ryu). Not all of the 9 schools were Ninjutsu. It is a mix of Ninjutsu and Samurai schools (I believe).Togakure Ryu is Ninjutsu (I believe Stephen Hayes had been training in Togakure Ryu early on). For example, there are 18 skills that this school teaches according to what I have read. These skills are as follows...



Seishin Teki Kyoyo (Spiritual Refinement)
Tai Jutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Ninja Ken (Ninja Sword)
Bo-Jutsu (Stick and Staff Fighting)
Shuriken-Jutsu (Throwing Blades)
Yari-Jutsu(Spear Fighting)
Naginata-Jutsu (Halberd Fighting)
Kusari-Gama (Chain and Sickle Weapon)
Kayaku-Jutsu (Fire and Explosives)
Henso-Jutsu (Disguise and Impersonation)
Shinobi-Iri (Stealth and Entering Methods)
Ba-Jutsu (Horsemanship)
Sui-Ren (Water Training)
Bo-Ryaku (Strategy)
Cho Ho (Espionage)
Inton-Jutsu (Escape and Concealment)
Ten-Mon (Meteorology)
Chi-Mon (Geography)

The way I see it, if Togakure Ryu is Ninjutsu, but we only really train in a few aspects of it, then is it really Ninjutsu or just bu-jutsu.

Here are the most common things in training as I have experienced it... In order from most common to least common.
  1. Tai Jutsu (Unarmed Combat)
  2. Bo-Jutsu (Stick and Staff Fighting)
  3. Ninja Ken (Ninja Sword)
  4. Yari-Jutsu(Spear Fighting)
  5. Shuriken-Jutsu (Throwing Blades)
  6. Naginata-Jutsu (Halberd Fighting)
  7. Kusari-Gama (Chain and Sickle Weapon)
I believe these particular skills were not unique to the Ninja, I believe they were more bu-jutsu skills. So, in my opinion I think this is why Kreth said that, or at the very least this is what I understood it to be and that was why I agreed. :p

Now, there are some skills I believe that are taught indirectly with training but are not trained specifically. Take Bo-Ryaku (Strategy) for example. The understanding of proper taijutsu is also an understanding of strategy, IMO. Even Inton-Jutsu (Escape and Concealment) could be seen in training as well. Additionally, I believe Seishin Teki Kyoyo (Spiritual Refinement) happens as a by product of the training, even if it isn't taught directly.

However, I have seen only the short list of things taught, so as for things taught, I would say for the most part bu-jutsu.

Then, I could be all wrong and I have caused subterfuge and further confused people so that the truth is still out there! :lfao:
 

mrhnau

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Seishin Teki Kyoyo (Spiritual Refinement)
Tai Jutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Ninja Ken (Ninja Sword)
Bo-Jutsu (Stick and Staff Fighting)
Shuriken-Jutsu (Throwing Blades)
Yari-Jutsu(Spear Fighting)
Naginata-Jutsu (Halberd Fighting)
Kusari-Gama (Chain and Sickle Weapon)
Kayaku-Jutsu (Fire and Explosives)
Henso-Jutsu (Disguise and Impersonation)
Shinobi-Iri (Stealth and Entering Methods)
Ba-Jutsu (Horsemanship)
Sui-Ren (Water Training)
Bo-Ryaku (Strategy)
Cho Ho (Espionage)
Inton-Jutsu (Escape and Concealment)
Ten-Mon (Meteorology)
Chi-Mon (Geography)

Great post :) Honestly, one of the things I was most disappointed in with the Bujinkan is the lack of training in some of these areas. Learning how to fight or defend yourself is wonderful, but I'd love to learn some traditional methods of Meteorology, Geography, Strategy...
 

jks9199

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Great post :) Honestly, one of the things I was most disappointed in with the Bujinkan is the lack of training in some of these areas. Learning how to fight or defend yourself is wonderful, but I'd love to learn some traditional methods of Meteorology, Geography, Strategy...
One thing that occurs to me is that it's possible that some of this material is taught more selectively.

From what I gather, just about anyone of decent character with a good attitude is welcome to join the Bujinkan or train in Toshindo. But some of those other topics don't lend themselves as well to a training hall class structure, or may be imparted in a more one-on-one format, to selected students. It may be that the students who are selected are those who inquire... or it may be that the teacher selects the student... or it may be a little of both.
 

ToShinDoKa

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One thing that occurs to me is that it's possible that some of this material is taught more selectively.

From what I gather, just about anyone of decent character with a good attitude is welcome to join the Bujinkan or train in Toshindo. But some of those other topics don't lend themselves as well to a training hall class structure, or may be imparted in a more one-on-one format, to selected students. It may be that the students who are selected are those who inquire... or it may be that the teacher selects the student... or it may be a little of both.

I agree with this, fully. At a recent seminar, Anshu specifically talked about, as in the video to some extent, why the 'ninja' skills are not just freely offered to everyone. He told us the other practices are taught to those who particularly have an interest in them, and perhaps have matured enough in their training to understand them.
 

exile

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I will try and explain things as I see it (ie, my opinion) with regards to the Bujinkan, but I believe the same will somewhat apply to Toshindo. First the Bujinkan is made up of 9 schools (ryu). Not all of the 9 schools were Ninjutsu. It is a mix of Ninjutsu and Samurai schools (I believe).Togakure Ryu is Ninjutsu (I believe Stephen Hayes had been training in Togakure Ryu early on). For example, there are 18 skills that this school teaches according to what I have read. These skills are as follows...



Seishin Teki Kyoyo (Spiritual Refinement)
Tai Jutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Ninja Ken (Ninja Sword)
Bo-Jutsu (Stick and Staff Fighting)
Shuriken-Jutsu (Throwing Blades)
Yari-Jutsu(Spear Fighting)
Naginata-Jutsu (Halberd Fighting)
Kusari-Gama (Chain and Sickle Weapon)
Kayaku-Jutsu (Fire and Explosives)
Henso-Jutsu (Disguise and Impersonation)
Shinobi-Iri (Stealth and Entering Methods)
Ba-Jutsu (Horsemanship)
Sui-Ren (Water Training)
Bo-Ryaku (Strategy)
Cho Ho (Espionage)
Inton-Jutsu (Escape and Concealment)
Ten-Mon (Meteorology)
Chi-Mon (Geography)

The way I see it, if Togakure Ryu is Ninjutsu, but we only really train in a few aspects of it, then is it really Ninjutsu or just bu-jutsu.

Here are the most common things in training as I have experienced it... In order from most common to least common.
  1. Tai Jutsu (Unarmed Combat)
  2. Bo-Jutsu (Stick and Staff Fighting)
  3. Ninja Ken (Ninja Sword)
  4. Yari-Jutsu(Spear Fighting)
  5. Shuriken-Jutsu (Throwing Blades)
  6. Naginata-Jutsu (Halberd Fighting)
  7. Kusari-Gama (Chain and Sickle Weapon)
I believe these particular skills were not unique to the Ninja, I believe they were more bu-jutsu skills. So, in my opinion I think this is why Kreth said that, or at the very least this is what I understood it to be and that was why I agreed. :p

Now, there are some skills I believe that are taught indirectly with training but are not trained specifically. Take Bo-Ryaku (Strategy) for example. The understanding of proper taijutsu is also an understanding of strategy, IMO. Even Inton-Jutsu (Escape and Concealment) could be seen in training as well. Additionally, I believe Seishin Teki Kyoyo (Spiritual Refinement) happens as a by product of the training, even if it isn't taught directly.

However, I have seen only the short list of things taught, so as for things taught, I would say for the most part bu-jutsu.

Then, I could be all wrong and I have caused subterfuge and further confused people so that the truth is still out there! :lfao:

Great post—it illustrates exactly how MT is such a terrific place for a serious MAist with a lot of curiosity to call home. Thanks very much for the info, BigS, that clears a lot of my questions up.
 

Bigshadow

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After thinking longer about what I said, I will also say that there are still many elements of "Ninjutsu" present in the Bujinkan training from what I can tell and there is likely much more than I can presently see. I truly believe the essence of Ninjutsu remains. Just, it isn't what is conventionally perceived when one first hears the 18 skills.

I cannot speak for ToShindo or what still remains in ToShindo, but I would guess the absence of Ninjutsu in Toshindo would be of a greater magnitude.
 

ToShinDoKa

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:ninja:Ninjutsu still in To-Shin Do? I'd say I agree with Big Shadow, to a high degree.

During the basic levels I've seen multiple classical weapons being taught(bojutsu, kenjutsu, shuriken jutsu, kusari fundo keiko, etc.), as well as all the taijutsu (taihenjutsu, tobijutsu, muto dori, and so on).

You do find a lot of the mental and psychological aspects (like haragagei "master ones own mind", teaching us to use our fears and natural reactions as a strength in our path to victory"), as well as some Seishin-teki Kyoyo/mind science, for those who are interested in said pursuits.

As far as homemade explosives and gathering herbs, you'd probably have to request that with Anshu himself, if that's something you're in to.
Nonetheless, compared to the Black belts, 'Toshi's, and onward, such curriculum or advised studies are both oblivious, and at this point in my training, doesn't really concern me much. :shrug: I can't say I wouldn't like to know a little more, me-self...but with the new To-Shin Do SKHQuest Online Community out, I'm sure I'll be able to find out.
 

SageGhost83

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I was always told that for an art to still be considered "authentic" ninjutsu that it must teach the Juhakkei and the Hachimon. If these things are present in Toshindo, then I don't see why it wouldn't still be Ninjutsu. Perhaps it has grown and evolved like every martial art should and does, but as long as the core teachings and essence remain, then I would like to think that it is still Ninjutsu, not Traditional Ninjutsu, but Ninjutsu nonetheless.
 

kwaichang

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I was always told that for an art to still be considered "authentic" ninjutsu that it must teach the Juhakkei and the Hachimon. If these things are present in Toshindo, then I don't see why it wouldn't still be Ninjutsu. Perhaps it has grown and evolved like every martial art should and does, but as long as the core teachings and essence remain, then I would like to think that it is still Ninjutsu, not Traditional Ninjutsu, but Ninjutsu nonetheless.

A well thought and said statement. IMO, no martial art taught today is *exactly* taught as it was hundreds of years ago. However, that doesn't lessen it's roots nor deny it's right to be called by the original style name.
 
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